[TV/Books] Game of Thrones ***SPOILER Discussion***

[Sooba]

Still, in fairness I don't really expect a 12 year old in a state of fear to be putting too much thought into the situation. So I get why he might have simply ran straight as fast as he could.

I know you're trying to be fair. But I want to be clear here. I'm not saying this is learned. I'm saying this is instinct. A 12-year old would do it as much as a 30-year old with battle training.

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lyanna is already badass.

Maege Mormont version 2, just as good as version 1.

[Elim Garak]

If you have a gun and you are trying to shoot someone just running around, its insanely easier to hit them the closer they are to you.

Have proof?

You are so hugely incorrect here.

Seriously, the fact that you don't even understand why a hitscan weapon in an internet game has no relationship to a projectile weapon at long distances in the real world says to me that you really need to just bow out of this discussion.

I'm talking about aiming. You know this thing that must be done before firing.

Once again you willfully choose to equivocate and try redefine what people mean by zigzagging, even though it has been explained to you multiple times. Once again, so you can't pretend you didn't see: People in this thread do not mean running in a crazy pattern all the time. (Which at long range would be harder to hit anyway. Counter to what you claim.) They are talking about keeping your head moving back and forth, from where you're going to the shooter and back again, and adjusting your trajectory by enough degrees so as to not be in such danger. At sufficiently long distance (which Rickon had reached) this would be rather easy. At short distance next to impossible. (The opposite of what you tried to claim before.)

That's not zigzagging, that's some nonsense, which Rickon was doing btw, didn't help. And please stop talking for all people.

The most effective way is to run straight anyway. So all you zigzaggers are just plain wrong.

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Simply incorrect. They do.

There's no instinct "not get hit by an arrow". Running away and looking - Rickon did that.

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Still, in fairness I don't really expect a 12 year old in a state of fear to be putting too much thought into the situation. So I get why he might have simply ran straight as fast as he could.

Running straight is the most effective way to get away from a shooter.

[Jotaux]

Have proof?

You seriously want me to find evidence that its easier to hit a target closer to you than far away? I just want to clarify, you need proof to believe that the farther away a target is the harder it is to hit?

[Wilderness]

To be honest, Jon never lead an army in an open field battle. He doesn't have much experience.

True, he's not a tested battlefield commander, but he has commanded men for some time, been trained in warfare, and was warned repeatedly that Ramsay would try to mess with him somehow. I get why he did what he did, but it was still dumb. Smart would have been yelling for your 3 fastest horsemen to get ready to zip out there as soon as his brother was brought out and his ropes were cut free. Rickon did stand there for some time before he actually started running.

Strawman. You purposefully created a caricature of what I just said there, which is pretty damn sad. I didn't say there "a zigzag instinct." It most certainly IS instinctive to keep the source of danger in your vision. There would also be an instinct to not get hit by arrows. You don't have to be trained to not want to die.

You don't have to be trained to not want to die. You do have to be trained to understand the best ways to not die in various situations - there is no natural human instinct that by the age of 12 most/all people put into this situation would know to vary your speed, zig zag randomly, keep looking back and forth, etc. That's not something born into anyone.

[callipygoustp]

Nope. what I said is the precise description of what happens when someone zigzags in the distance. Go play some online shooter to test it.

I've played plenty of FPSs. And I cannot count the number of times I ran directly at an enemy, who had a clear line of fire on me, randomly zigzagging my way toward them to collect the prize of a knife kill.

[Jotaux]

You don't have to be trained to not want to die. You do have to be trained to understand the best ways to not die in various situations - there is no natural human instinct that by the age of 12 most/all people put into this situation would know to vary your speed, zig zag randomly, keep looking back and forth, etc. That's not something born into anyone.

I don't think the argument is "Rickon would have zig zagged" its "Rickon should have zig zagged"

[Sooba]

Have proof?

I'm talking about aiming. You know this thing that must be done before firing.



That's not zigzagging, that's some nonsense, which Rickon was doing btw, didn't help. And please stop talking for all people.

The most effective way is to run straight anyway. So all you zigzaggers are just plain wrong.

You've reached fingers-in-ears level of refusal at this point.

[Wilderness]

I don't think the argument is "Rickon would have zig zagged" its "Rickon should have zig zagged"

Maybe I'm misunderstanding him, but he seems to be saying its natural human instinct that would have led to Rickon zig zagging and that anyone put into that situation would know what to do to maximize your chances. Which I don't agree with.

[Sooba]

True, he's not a tested battlefield commander, but he has commanded men for some time, been trained in warfare, and was warned repeatedly that Ramsay would try to mess with him somehow. I get why he did what he did, but it was still dumb. Smart would have been yelling for your 3 fastest horsemen to get ready to zip out there as soon as his brother was brought out and his ropes were cut free. Rickon did stand there for some time before he actually started running.



You don't have to be trained to not want to die. You do have to be trained to understand the best ways to not die in various situations - there is no natural human instinct that by the age of 12 most/all people put into this situation would know to vary your speed, zig zag randomly, keep looking back and forth, etc. That's not something born into anyone.

I'm not saying he needs to know to do this randomly or even varying speed. Looking back and forth would most certainly come naturally. Look at "salvation" point, look at danger. It would be happening repeatedly and instinctively. Someone challenged by a growling dog will typically stare at the dog and often run into danger (like the path of a car) because they're looking at danger. Or if they're aware of the car, they'll track both. Someone drowning will look toward shore almost exclusively (no point form danger.) Unless it's a shark, in which case you can see their head like its on a swivel (shark-shore-shark-shore). etc. etc.

From there, apply to Rickon. He would be looking frantically back and forth. And he would, contrary to what Elim is trying to say, most certainly would change his path when an arrow is loosed so as not to be anywhere close to where the shooter was aiming.

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Maybe I'm misunderstanding him, but he seems to be saying its natural human instinct that would have led to Rickon zig zagging and that anyone put into that situation would know what to do to maximize your chances. Which I don't agree with.

I think you, like Elim, are operating undera definition of zig-zagging that I'm not describing. I'm not talking about a pre-trained effort of nicely erratic movement. (Although even that would be possible if he had enough experience or cleverness in the moment.) I'm talking about constantly changing direction with each loosed arrow so as not to be where it was aimed. He was far away enough to do this. In the end this would form... a zig zag.

Edit: grammar and clarity.

[Elim Garak]

You seriously want me to find evidence that its easier to hit a target closer to you than far away? I just want to clarify, you need proof to believe that the farther away a target is the harder it is to hit?

No I need proof that a zigzagging target is easier to hit the closer it is.

I've played plenty of FPSs. And I cannot count the number of times I ran directly at an enemy, who had a clear line of fire on me, randomly zigzagging my way toward them to collect the prize of a knife kill.

Exactly my point. If it was easier to hit you the closer you got (while zigzagging) - you would be dead.

You've reached fingers-in-ears level of refusal at this point.

Running in a straight line away from shooter is the most effective way. I don't see how that is refusal.

I'm actually kinda disappointed at how well you're fulfilling the stereotype of, "Internet gamer who thinks the world works like it does in video games."

I'm not talking about games. Aiming in real life is even harder than in games, so zigzagging fucks it up, but only if you are in short range and running towards the target to fight it, If you are running away - run straight and find cover.

[callipygoustp]

Have proof?

I'm talking about aiming. You know this thing that must be done before firing.



That's not zigzagging, that's some nonsense, which Rickon was doing btw, didn't help. And please stop talking for all people.

The most effective way is to run straight anyway. So all you zigzaggers are just plain wrong.

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There's no instinct "not get hit by an arrow". Running away and looking - Rickon did that.

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Running straight is the most effective way to get away from a shooter.

Awww fuck I hate feeding trolls. *Shakes fist at the sky in anger*

[Wilderness]

I'm not saying he needs to know to do this randomly or even varying speed. Looking back and forth would most certainly come naturally. Look at "salvation" point, look at danger. It would be happening repeatedly and instinctively. Someone challenged by a growling dog will typically stare at the dog and often run into danger (like the path of a car) because they're looking at danger. Someone drowning will look toward shore almost exclusively (no point form danger.) Unless it's a shark, in which case you can see they're head like its on a swivel (shark-shore-shark-shore). etc. etc.

From there, apply to Rickon. He would be looking frantically back and forth. And he would, contrary to what Elim is trying to say, most certainly would change his path when an arrow is loosed so as not to be anywhere close to where the shooter was aiming.

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I think you, like Elim, are operating undera definition of zig-zagging that I'm not describing. I'm not talking about a pre-trained effort of nicely erratic movement. I'm talking about constantly changing direction with each loosed arrow so as not to be where it was aimed. He was far away enough to do this.

Ok, that's a little more reasonable than what I thought you were implying at first, although I still don't think that's something that an average boy in that situation would be aware enough to do.

It also wouldn't matter, because the smart archer would just wait for you to turn your head and look forward, which you have to do sometimes, before he looses his shot. Then you have to turn back, realize he shot, locate the arrow in the air, and dodge.

[Elim Garak]

I think you, like Elim, are operating undera definition of zig-zagging that I'm not describing. I'm not talking about a pre-trained effort of nicely erratic movement. (Although even that would be possible if he had enough experience or cleverness in the moment.) I'm talking about constantly changing direction with each loosed arrow so as not to be where it was aimed. He was far away enough to do this.

Because that's not zigzagging. use proper terms, the thing you are talking about is most likely DODGING.

In Rickon situation dodging was impossible:
1. At first Ramsey didn't want to hit him while he was close
2. But as Rickon got some distance between - Ramsey began to shoot to kill
3. Rickon was looking behind and Ramsey missed one kill-shot. but I cannot claim it's because he dodged it- I think it was a fair miss, because, duh, running target and a bow.
4. At the distance Ramsey was too far away for Rickon to SEE him shooting. Watch the episode again to get the idea what Rickon might have seen while looking back - NOTHING, I mean the army in the background, obviously.

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Real life is not an FPS game, though. :|

It's harder to hit targets in real life, I agree.

[Sooba]

Because that's not zigzagging. use proper terms, the thing you are talking about is most likely DODGING.

In Rickon situation dodging was impossible:
1. At first Ramsey didn't want to hit him while he was close
2. But as Rickon got some distance between - Ramsey began to shoot to kill
3. Rickon was looking behind and Ramsey missed one kill-shot. but I cannot claim it's because he dodged it- I think it was a fair miss, because, duh, running target and a bow.
4. At the distance Ramsey was too far away for Rickon to SEE him shooting. Watch the episode again to get the idea what Rickon might have seen while looking back - NOTHING, I mean the army in the background, obviously.

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It's harder to hit targets in real life, I agree.

And when you change direction with each arrow, what occurs? A zig zag.

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Ok, that's a little more reasonable than what I thought you were implying at first, although I still don't think that's something that an average boy in that situation would be aware enough to do.

It also wouldn't matter, because the smart archer would just wait for you to turn your head and look forward, which you have to do sometimes, before he looses his shot. Then you have to turn back, realize he shot, locate the arrow in the air, and dodge.

The smart archer would. And I think Ramsay would be smart. You wouldn't really have to locate the arrow in the air though. At least, assuming poor / no training you wouldnt. You would simply change direction somewhat under the assumption he was aiming at you. At that point, the bowman would have to gauge not only wind conditions and distance and lie, but also try and guess where you're going to go. His chance of hitting would be so low as to be laughable.

[Elim Garak]

And when you change direction with each arrow, what occurs? A zig zag.

No. It's a dodge. Zigzagging is a different beast. Also you don't change direction - that would be stupid as you lose speed. You just shift to the side and continue to run straight to the cover.

Also considering the way that scene was shot you cannot claim that Rickon didn't try to dodge what with all the camera re-positioning, different angles, etc. Ramsey did miss one kill-shot, you know.

[Sooba]

No. It's a dodge. Zigzagging is a different beast. Also you don't change direction - that would be stupid as you lose speed. You just shift to the side and continue to run straight to the cover.

Also considering the way that scene was shot you cannot claim that Rickon didn't try to dodge what with all the camera re-positioning, different angles, etc. Ramsey did miss one kill-shot, you know.

As Lime was correct to point out to me, he (most likely) didn't miss accidentally. He missed on purpose so that Jon would keep coming and be trapped.

And no, you don't just sidestep wonderfully like it's some sort of bullet time game. The direction would change entirely.

Also, to be clear to all here. I'm not trying to say that Rickon would/should have survived. As far as I'm concerned he was dead either way. (Again credit to Lime for part of this analysis). Once Jon was in good range for volleys, that's what Ramsay was going to do. Why bother having Rickon die in some incredulous manner when he could've died within a volley or two? Far more plausible.

[Elim Garak]

As Lime was correct to point out to me, he (most likely) didn't miss accidentally. He missed on purpose so that Jon would keep coming and be trapped.

Nope, he only missed a couple of first shots on purpose.
The shot before the last one he missed not on purpose as can be seen by his serious face when he made it as Rickon was real close to Jon (who was riding fast). This miss was emphasized by the way it was shown, it was a close call. The kill shot is not even shown - we see only result.

And no, you don't just sidestep wonderfully like it's some sort of bullet time game. The direction would change entirely.

Why? It's an arrow which is in flight - it cannot track you, so you just side step and it misses. No need to change direction entirely, not to mention inadvisable.

[Butler to Baby Sloths]

Nope, he only missed a couple of first shots on purpose.
The shot before the last one he missed not on purpose as can be seen by his serious face when he made it as Rickon was real close to Jon (who was riding fast). This miss was emphasized by the way it was shown, it was a close call. The kill shot is not even shown - we see only result.


Why? It's an arrow which is in flight - it cannot track you, so you just side step and it misses. No need to change direction entirely, not to mention inadvisable.

That would take a decent amount of attention, because the flight time of the arrow is going to be about a second, tops.

[Elim Garak]

That would take a decent amount of attention, because the flight time of the arrow is going to be about a second, tops.

Sure, and in case of Rickon was not possible at all, because he couldn't see the shot even if he looked at Ramsey loosing it - because distance, running and background of people.

Rickon did everything right, Ramsey was just prepared and it was his game.

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No, but it is something someone who has watched military training, and perhaps even received a bit, their entire life would know. The Stark children fall into that category, especially the boys. We saw evidence of them training in the realm of archery in episode 1...

Considering that "military" wear armor and heavy metal sticks, the best defense from arrows is a shield (running in a straight line) and not running in zig-zags, exhausting yourself. I guess they were taught exactly that if they were taught that is.

[Jotaux]

That would take a decent amount of attention, because the flight time of the arrow is going to be about a second, tops.

at 300 yards it takes roughly 5 seconds to hit and this is with the bows used today.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Et23I9zneqk Video with 100, 200 and 300 yards. I'm told 140m takes about 4 seconds with a long bow.