[TV/Books] Game of Thrones ***SPOILER Discussion***

[Netherling]

I thought the first 20-30mins of the episode were great. Really great. The North was being absolutely smashed and it was really sad to see all the heroes being brutally beaten: Brienne was surrounded by undead, being chewed on etc.; Grey Worm knew the battle was lost; Tormund was overwhelmed; Sansa fled to the crypts and was just like 'whelp, we're fucked'. It's Game of Thrones, so I assumed it was going to be somewhat realistic (yes I know there's magic and dragons), but as main characters kept on miraculously surviving (Samwell Tarly, really?), I started to get a bit bored and the impact lessened.

If this was an episode (or a film even) of some other fantasy show, like LOTR or something, then I would have absolutely 100% enjoyed it. We all knew Frodo was going to win in LOTR and Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli would be ok and that's fine. In GoT we all knew Ned Stark was going to be ok and then he got fucking beheaded.

It was an exciting episode with a very satisfying ending where all our heroes survived and the baddies were beaten at the last moment (it reminded me a lot of the end of The Phantom Menace) and that, for me, is not how Game of Thrones should be and I'd be willing to bet that it's not how the book is going to handle it.

[Ermelloth]

Ladies & gentlemen,

IDK if someone presented this theory before (haven't read this topic too often), but I believe that after some recent observations and thorough thinking I can give a prognosis about who is going to seat on Iron Throne in the end and even back my claim up with some logical conclusions.

I suppose that is is Gendry who is going to become the King of Westeros with Arya Stark as his queen (and presumably Davos as King's Hand) There is a certain chain of events that is going to lead to this, as I believe:

1) Cersei giving a crossbow to Bronn (the same crossbow Tywin was shot from). I think Bronn is going to shoot (wound or even kill) Tyrion from this crossbow, which will result in Jaime fulfilling Cersei's prophecy and choking his sister to death in the end.

2) Daenerys will replace Cersei as new Queen of Westeros right away, but, swept by power and might (and also losing wise people by her side like Jorah and Tyrion who helped her to contain her temper), she may go mad and become the tyrant her father was, and very quickly (hint to this - Samwell's father and brother's death). Then another prophecy will come true - "betrayed by love", cause Jon, a just and benevolent man, won't let her commit atrocities. He will have to kill her despite what he's feeling towards her. Sad, but necessary for the greater good.

3) Jon won't accept the crown. It's not who he is. He is going to resign. He is not "King material", he's too much like Ned. I do see him as a new knight leader or even re-founder of Night Watch as series end

4) Since Dany is dead and Jon is resigned, this means there are no Targaryens left to inherit the Iron Throne. Which means Baratheon descendants are logical to be next in line.

5) GG

P.S. I think the sex scene between Arya and Gendry and the fact he survived and was hidden from sight all this time is another hint to what is going to happen in the end.

[Tekkommo]

That aspect isn't part of the Company in the show, unless they pull it out of their ass at the last second. The GC is just an excuse to give Cercei some more mooks.

Also in the books the Golden Company are remnants of a Blackfyre rebellion; a cadet branch (it's complicated) that is hostile to the Targaryen and would not side with Dany at all.

They planned to join Dany in the books, until she was in no rush to leave Meereen... Red or black, a dragon is still a dragon.

It also won't surprise me if they would join Aegon (Jon) if they found out about him, if they have fused Aegon from the books into Jon. Not many episodes left so probably not enough time to do that now.

[Ivanstone]

True, but you are kind of just making my points for me. Because the show has handwaved all those issues for Cersei as well. My point isn't that exact scenario should have played out, but that the writing is so internally consistent that no theory makes sense.

Dany should have more loyalty issues in her forces then she does, but then Cersei shouldn't have a single person supporting her except maybe Qyburn and his pet monster. Why are the Lannister armies still loyal to Cersei? Both male heirs are fighting for Dany now, and Cersei got all their armies killed, spent their gold, and lost Casterly Rock along with the entire west. Not to mention it isn't hard to piece together she murdered her uncle, and her screwing her brother is the worst kept secret in Westeros. But none of that mattered, because as you pointed out with the marches, nothing counts unless it is relevant to the plot. And leaving Cersei alive isn't going to make controlling her lands easier anyway, because as I pointed out, Dany basically rules everything that isn't Kings Landing anyway. The Iron Throne is pretty much just an uncomfortable chair at this point.

Lannister and Baratheon/Tyrell (what's left) forces support Cersei because its what they are trained to do. They believe the power lies with her. Not Jaime the Oathbreaker who isn't allowed to have any as a Kingsguard or Tyrion the criminal who should've been executed. Power is an illusion and Cersei is holding up her end.

Dany has fanatics and the Stark's supporting her. The fanatics are, well, fanatics. The North supports Jon as well as the Tully's and Arryn's. Jon supports Dany, so they support her.

Yes things should look a lot messier than they are but that costs time and money to portray. The moral thing to do is to treat with Cersei and not blow torch the biggest city in Westeros. Sure, that had unintended consequences. Ned Stark thought he was doing the right thing too. I think most of the things that need to be done correctly, are being done correctly. Some of the details could be better than they are. The Martell storyline still blows goats but at least it gave me a decent character in Star Trek Timelines so its not a complete loss.

[crusadernero]

See this part actually doesn't bother me at all. I rather like the way they handled the prophecy. Because prophecies are bullshit and lazy writing. In GoT we have seen Melisandre be straight up wrong about Stannis, apparently miss the mark on Jon, and kind of, sort of prophecy that Arya would "Close blue eyes".

Which is a pretty authentic way of treating the prophecy concept actually. They only come true if you turn your head and squint real hard, just like historical ones or modern horoscopes. Most of the people that seem to be super upset about Arya being a "Mary Sue" are really just upset that Jon isn't the Mary Sue in this scene. Which isn't the problem I have with it at all. My problem is just that it is so... empty. It makes all the armies and preparation and buildup just meaningless. I don't have a problem with Arya killing him, I have a problem with him being immune to things at random and vulnerable to something that wasn't even explained in the show itself. I don't care who kills him, I just want good writing. The Hound can beat him to death with a hunk of raw obsidian for all I care, as long as it makes sense in the universe and in the show.

Nails it. Its the story and buildup and everything surrounding the NK that upsets people. And the fact he dies so easily. He literally lols from dragonfire and dies from 1 stab of valarian steel(were the most important part is fire). A weakness no one really knew about.

Its a shortcut with shock value. nothing more, nothing less.

[eschatological]

I predict Arya will try wearing Jamie's face to get close to Cercei to try what she did with the night king. But since cercei wants Jamie dead she will kill Arya thinking it was Jaimie. And Jamie will end up killing Cercei

You have to be dead to have your face worn. It's an actual physical face. She can't wear Jaime's face if Jaime isn't already dead.

[dippinsawse]

There's some of that. GoT's writing isn't ideal (ex Dorne storyline), so its not hard to be fussy. If you assume some of the storytelling is bad, its not much of a stretch to assume that more of its bad. On the other hand, sometimes people will ignore what's actually happening to make their belief self-fulfilling.

The Dothraki charge looked cool and compelling but it was also pretty stupid at the same time. That's bad. Saying the White Walkers did nothing when they were actually conjuring up a massive storm to eliminate the defender's chief advantage (Dragons) is looking for flaws by creating them out of nothing. The latest episode wasn't perfect but Arya's killing of the Night King was completely inevitable if you look back upon, well, everything.

That still doesn't make sense. The storms of the white walkers have always come before the army. It's not something they did just to deal with the dragons, it is an essential part of their tactics. In the books I took the implication that it isn't even something they necessarily conjure but that it is a passive result of their power and presence that everything becomes cold and the winds howl. But even if it is something they have to conjure, they have always done so in a way that sort of surrounds their armies to the extent that you would see the storm before you knew the white walkers were there. That's a big part of why the white walkers are such a threat because they have an undead army that can fight like normal and are unaffected by the cold, meanwhile you are blinded from the blizzard and freezing your face off.

What you are saying is actually another problem with the episode. Why wasn't the storm already blowing over winterfell before they spotted the army? They could have used it to freeze, disorient, and cover their armies like they always have. The defenders would have no way of knowing where and at which point the army actually attacks and they would be cold and tired by the time it actually happens. It makes no sense.

[eschatological]

I had just two problems with the episode.

1. They didn't explain in the actual show how to kill Night King, all we have some writers/directors talking about he can only be killed when stabbed into same spot as when Children of the Forest created him (middle of the chest). Sure we saw him being immune to Drogon's fire, but there was nothing leading us or characters into that conclusion. If we saw both dragon glass and varelian steel failing first when striking other areas of his body and then the final blows come in, killing him suddenly, we would all intuitively understand it.

I didn't pay much attention to D&D after the show, but the vague impression I got was that that wasn't "the way to kill him" but just a narrative "what goes around, comes around" sort of moment. He started that way, he ended that way. I'm fairly sure you could lodge a dragonglass axe in the NK's skull and he'd shatter too. If not, that's dumb as shit.

[crusadernero]

Ladies & gentlemen,

IDK if someone presented this theory before (haven't read this topic too often), but I believe that after some recent observations and thorough thinking I can give a prognosis about who is going to seat on Iron Throne in the end and even back my claim up with some logical conclusions.

I suppose that is is Gendry who is going to become the King of Westeros with Arya Stark as his queen (and presumably Davos as King's Hand) There is a certain chain of events that is going to lead to this, as I believe:

1) Cersei giving a crossbow to Bronn (the same crossbow Tywin was shot from). I think Bronn is going to shoot (wound or even kill) Tyrion from this crossbow, which will result in Jaime fulfilling Cersei's prophecy and choking his sister to death in the end.

2) Daenerys will replace Cersei as new Queen of Westeros right away, but, swept by power and might (and also losing wise people by her side like Jorah and Tyrion who helped her to contain her temper), she may go mad and become the tyrant her father was, and very quickly (hint to this - Samwell's father and brother's death). Then another prophecy will come true - "betrayed by love", cause Jon, a just and benevolent man, won't let her commit atrocities. He will have to kill her despite what he's feeling towards her. Sad, but necessary for the greater good.

3) Jon won't accept the crown. It's not who he is. He is going to resign. He is not "King material", he's too much like Ned. I do see him as a new knight leader or even re-founder of Night Watch as series end

4) Since Dany is dead and Jon is resigned, this means there are no Targaryens left to inherit the Iron Throne. Which means Baratheon descendants are logical to be next in line.

5) GG

P.S. I think the sex scene between Arya and Gendry and the fact he survived and was hidden from sight all this time is another hint to what is going to happen in the end.

Maybe. Decent theory, I like it. It would be a crazy spin.

BTW - Why would they need the night watch after this? The dead are defeated.

[Thekri]

I didn't pay much attention to D&D after the show, but the vague impression I got was that that wasn't "the way to kill him" but just a narrative "what goes around, comes around" sort of moment. He started that way, he ended that way. I'm fairly sure you could lodge a dragonglass axe in the NK's skull and he'd shatter too. If not, that's dumb as shit.

Well we know that Drogon can huff, and Drogon can puff, but Drogon can't blow the Night King away. And dragonglass and Valeryian steel only work because of their association with Dragonfire (In the books at least, the show isn't exactly clear on why either work). So who knows if a dragonglass axe to the skull would work. Or if the location mattered. Or if the specific bodypart that was hit mattered. Or if the person wielding the weapon mattered. We have nothing to go off of for this, only that Drogon can't kill him but Arya can.

[Gorsameth]

Why was the hound there? Didn’t the butch chick kill him? Who was the kid in the wheelchair, I am assuming it was bran who talks to animals since he can’t walk? What happened to hodor?

Basically who is still alive and left for the finale and who’s going to win.

The hound survived his fight with Briene, went on a bit of a redemption arc and is now a good guy. Well an ok guy. Of no real consequence to the story tho other then maybe fighting zombie Mountain.

Wheelchair kid is indeed Brann, he became the three eyed raven in a place beyond the wall. He can see into the past and take over the mind of animals. And people since that is what he did to Hodor. He mind controls him to hold a door closed from the undead while Brann escapes. Also some time travel involved 'Hold the door' becoming 'Hodor' because reasons, its stupid.
His entire storyline is completely left hanging after the most recent episode so who knows whats going on with him now.

Tormunt, the bearded wildling, was saved by John Snow is now kinda loyal to him. He wants to fuck Briene and make super babies but otherwise not important.

John Snow is really Aegon Targyrian incase you hadn't heard yet. Reagar and Ned Starks sister actually loved each other instead of being kidnapped and they got married and had a child in secret. That child is John, Ned kept the truth hidden because Robert would kill the baby. He is the true rightful king of the 7 kingdoms and not Danny. They might have an argument about that, or maybe not. Who knows.

Donno what else you missed.
Tyrion killing Tywin?
Sansa getting manipulated and abused a bunch before becoming a bit hardened and finding her way home to become Lady of Winterfell.
Arya's journey into super killed assassin.

Donno if there is any big plotlines for the final few episodes I'm missing.

[Ivanstone]

What you are saying is actually another problem with the episode. Why wasn't the storm already blowing over winterfell before they spotted the army? They could have used it to freeze, disorient, and cover their armies like they always have. The defenders would have no way of knowing where and at which point the army actually attacks and they would be cold and tired by the time it actually happens. It makes no sense.

I'm not claiming the episode is perfect. I'm just pushing back against certain narratives others have put forth. Are the storms portrayed correctly? Not quite. Are they still necessary? Yes. That latter trumps the former. Holding the storm back to give the defenders a false of sense of security is reasonable but only sort of.

I think the only thing that is genuinely correct is that the Night King had to face Brann directly and its probably the only point where he might've been vulnerable. Everything else just looks cool and dramatic. And all previous actions are just there to bring us to that certain point. Brann could probably see that. Admittedly it might've just made more sense for everyone else flee and leave Brann in the Godswood with Arya hiding under his chair.

[Thekri]

I'm not claiming the episode is perfect. I'm just pushing back against certain narratives others have put forth. Are the storms portrayed correctly? Not quite. Are they still necessary? Yes. That latter trumps the former. Holding the storm back to give the defenders a false of sense of security is reasonable but only sort of.

I think the only thing that is genuinely correct is that the Night King had to face Brann directly and its probably the only point where he might've been vulnerable. Everything else just looks cool and dramatic. And all previous actions are just there to bring us to that certain point. Brann could probably see that. Admittedly it might've just made more sense for everyone else flee and leave Brann in the Godswood with Arya hiding under his chair.

And since touching white walkers with dragonglass apparently makes them go poof, maybe just scatter all the dragonglass as pointy rocks around winterfell and cover it with snow. Instant death trap that doesn't really hurt anything that isn't undead.

[eschatological]

So now, here's the problem I see going forward:

GRRM suggests the ending of ASoIaF will end bittersweetly.

The writers are supposed to end up in the same place.

How exactly is that going to happen? Most book readers thought it meant "the right person" would end up on the throne, but the lands would be ravaged by the Long Night, or even that the NK destroys them all just as they conclude their game of thrones.

But now we have a straight political fight, between a comically evil side, which has to be defeated for there to be any "sweet" to a "bittersweet" ending. The bad guys are literally a mad queen, a maester who tortures and creates undead abominations, his undead abomination, and Euron, a kinslayer and sorcerer (though that sorcery bit isn't really played up in the shows) who is utterly bereft of moral value.

So then the "bitter" has to come from the winning side. I guess Dany going mad and Jon killing her after all is said and done is the answer to that? That would be a shit way to end it, because such an event would be RIGHT in line with the TPWWP prophecy, except it isn't needed any more because Winter ain't comin' no more, baby! What happens to her dragons then? Does Jon now own two dragons?


Or maybe the "bitter" comes from Bran, who realizes we can't just be Summer Children all the rest of our days, and takes up the mantle of Night's King.

Or maybe Sansa and Tyrion being unable to be together, for........reasons?


Oh, btw, are we now to assume Sansa and Bran are completely safe from here on out? There's 0 reason for them to make the march South, and there must always be a Stark in Winterfell. Is the North storyline just done now?

[MakeMeLaugh]

I wouldn't say absolute trash, but it's a damn sight short of the books. After season four the writing definitely devolved into basic mainstream audience pandering, complete with catchphrases. I'm not sure if that's a cause of the increasing mainstream popularity of the show or a response to it, but either way it worked and the normies absolutely eat it up.

That being said, I'll never not praise the production design, direction, and music. For all its flaws, it's a beautiful show to look at.

Of course, those aspects are still pretty good, but writing is in my opinion, the most important part, that's what made the first 4 or 5 seasons so good. But obviously they had the books, so it wasn't hard to accomplish good writing.

Now there's no books, there's only some dudes that are simply not good at writing, trying to do their own thing, thinking they are doing a good job. And it's working for them, because they go with the fan service approach that the masses love. Just look at this topic, so many basic people think it's fine, even saying it's amazing stuff, calling it "best got episode ever". God, how dense do you have to be to say that?

[Ermelloth]

BTW - Why would they need the night watch after this? The dead are defeated.

People are still dying and going to die and Night King may yet return or the new one is going to emerge, sooner or later.
Also, I don't think ALL the white walkers in existence were in that army. Some might have stayed beyond the wall in their graves as a reserve or just remained inactive.

So, it's only logical that someone is gonna be still needed to stand in the border between Life and Death and guard the living.

Just remember "our" Lich King. There must always be a Lich King.

[ohiostate124]

Ive always thought that the bittersweet ending would be Dany dying in childbirth (like Jon’s, Dany’s, and Tyrion’s mothers all did) leaving Jon to raise their child alone.

[Gorsameth]

So now, here's the problem I see going forward:

GRRM suggests the ending of ASoIaF will end bittersweetly.

The writers are supposed to end up in the same place.

How exactly is that going to happen? Most book readers thought it meant "the right person" would end up on the throne, but the lands would be ravaged by the Long Night, or even that the NK destroys them all just as they conclude their game of thrones.

But now we have a straight political fight, between a comically evil side, which has to be defeated for there to be any "sweet" to a "bittersweet" ending. The bad guys are literally a mad queen, a maester who tortures and creates undead abominations, his undead abomination, and Euron, a kinslayer and sorcerer (though that sorcery bit isn't really played up in the shows) who is utterly bereft of moral value.

So then the "bitter" has to come from the winning side. I guess Dany going mad and Jon killing her after all is said and done is the answer to that? That would be a shit way to end it, because such an event would be RIGHT in line with the TPWWP prophecy, except it isn't needed any more because Winter ain't comin' no more, baby! What happens to her dragons then? Does Jon now own two dragons?


Or maybe the "bitter" comes from Bran, who realizes we can't just be Summer Children all the rest of our days, and takes up the mantle of Night's King.

Or maybe Sansa and Tyrion being unable to be together, for........reasons?


Oh, btw, are we now to assume Sansa and Bran are completely safe from here on out? There's 0 reason for them to make the march South, and there must always be a Stark in Winterfell. Is the North storyline just done now?

I saw someone mention that the writers talked about having Jon kill the NK but they ended up going with something different.
If that is the case then the writers aren't following GRRM, if he gave them anything to go on in the first place, and anything can happen in regards to the ending.
But considering the writing in the last episodes/seasons its going to be a fairytale ending.

[Ermelloth]

Ive always thought that the bittersweet ending would be Dany dying in childbirth (like Jon’s, Dany’s, and Tyrion’s mothers all did) leaving Jon to raise their child alone.

It was implied in early seasons that after the sacrifice Dany made to bring Drogo back to life she won't be able to give birth to any more children

[Jayma]

It was implied in early seasons that after the sacrifice Dany made to bring Drogo back to life she won't be able to give birth to any more children

I'm pretty sure a witch on a TV show saying you can't have children actually makes you more fertile.