[TV/Books] Game of Thrones ***SPOILER Discussion***

[Huehuecoyotl]

I pretty clearly gave the reasoning behind what I said, in the context of one force vs another vast force of such supernatural origin. If you don't agree with that, fine. But let's not be ignorant of the fact that as anyone could see in that battle, any line of defense they had, be it Dothraki, infantry line, trebuchet's that did fuckall, even walls, were overwhelmed in minutes due to the sheer number and means in which these undead soldiers attack. No shuffling of x unit to x place was going to change the fact that they were outnumbered something like 10 to 1 by a foe who just simply doesn't stop for anything.

You explained your thinking, but there was nothing about it that was reasoned. If you want to believe that the way they fought the battle was realistic because they were going to lose whatever they did, so they might as well do stupid things, then clearly there is no discussion to be had here. It's a pretty lame defence of what the writers did in this episode. But I guess that's appropriate.

[Mavick]

Again, the Faceless Men are never known for stealth. Not once. That's literally the point of them stealing faces and being "no one." Both missions Arya has been on during her training, the time the waif tried to kill Arya, even when Jaqen used his post as a guard in Harrenhal to kill the guards to free Arya - none of it was done with stealth. You're conflating assassin (which the FM surely are) with some sort of WoW rogue skill set. There are many ways to assassinate people, and the FM use essentially magical disguises and "being seen but not seen" as their tools. And your excuse for this is, "Well, we didn't see ALL of her training, so she must have done it offscreen!"

That seems like you're the one mis-representing what we've actually observed.

I've observed that the Faceless Men are master assassin's and I seriously doubt it was ever an intention to show us every method they had of killing a target. I've also observed that being able to pull a ninja-like move out of the shadows is probably something an assassin of any kind of quasi-fantasy setting would be capable of. I've also observed in this thread that repeatedly bringing this stupid subject up to try to drive some pointless discussion serves literally no purpose but as long as you want to keep trying it, since I currently have all the time in the world, I will continue pointing out how flawed your own "observations" happen to be.

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You explained your thinking, but there was nothing about it that was reasoned. If you want to believe that the way they fought the battle was realistic because they were going to lose whatever they did, so they might as well do stupid things, then clearly there is no discussion to be had here. It's a pretty lame defence of what the writers did in this episode. But I guess that's appropriate.

Just saying "not reasoned" without really explaining how doesn't really gain traction. They foreshadowed in the episode before that they couldn't win facing them head-on, and this was abundantly clear all throughout the battle. Nothing they did work, nothing you think they should have done would have worked either. The narrative was for the NK to soundly beat everything they had and win, until at the very end Arya manages to change that by doing the one thing that would let them win: engage him directly and personally.

[Raelyn]

People seem to be wayyyyy overthinking the Dothraki charge. It was a really good spectical with the flaming swords and the lights slowly blinking out, and that is what it was designed to be - a visual spectical. Light being extinguished was also a good metaphor for darkness vs. light.

I thought it looked quite beautiful, actually, and also underlined just how bad the position was for the "good guys".

Anyways, just my thoughts. I'm sure many will disagree.

[eschatological]

I've observed that the Faceless Men are master assassin's and I seriously doubt it was ever an intention to show us every method they had of killing a target. I've also observed that being able to pull a ninja-like move out of the shadows is probably something an assassin of any kind of quasi-fantasy setting would be capable of. I've also observed in this thread that repeatedly bringing this stupid subject up to try to drive some pointless discussion serves literally no purpose but as long as you want to keep trying it, since I currently have all the time in the world, I will continue pointing out how flawed your own "observations" happen to be.

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Just saying "not reasoned" without really explaining how doesn't really gain traction. They foreshadowed in the episode before that they couldn't win facing them head-on, and this was abundantly clear all throughout the battle. Nothing they did work, nothing you think they should have done would have worked either. The narrative was for the NK to soundly beat everything they had and win, until at the very end Arya manages to change that by doing the one thing that would let them win: engage him directly and personally.

Again, this is you misrepresenting what's actually been seen or known about in the world. The Faceless Men are poisoners, or they slit your throat while disguised as someone else. They're trained in typical close quarters combat.

There's no indication anywhere that they have super agility, speed, or stealth. These are all representations you are making about them, and, to me, the observer of how they've actually been portrayed, it seems like a mis-representation.

Edit: And the point of the discussion is to illustrate the bad writing taking place, which you refuse to say exists, and which you say none of us have been able to point out.

Something D&D love to do is create layers of meta-narrative. They admitted it after this episode, they wanted Arya to kill the NK because Jon was "too obvious." That's playing to your audience, and not to the characterization of your characters, or the narrative of the world, or the themes of the work itself. They're constantly doing this meta-narrative by showing "beloved characters swarmed by death" only to appear fine shortly thereafter. It's how Jon survived the Battle of the Bastards. It's how Arya survived being repeated stabbed in the guts (hell, she was walking around the next day!) It's how Tormund and Edd, who were trapped at the top of the broken Wall last season, just magically showed up at Last Hearth this season with no indication of how they actually got down. It's how Theon took the Silence and freed Yara despite Euron having the best sailors in the Iron Fleet, who, on top of that, knew magic. They do things to pull the rugs out from under the audience, without caring if it makes sense. Two seasons ago I criticized LF's actions in marrying Sansa off to Ramsay, something book LF would never do, because it didn't serve his best advantage. He is, after all, a mastermind who would know Ramsay is known to literally hunt his whores down in the woods. If LF was always planning on bringing the Vale to help (or even if he wanted to just puppet Sansa in WF), he would need to be in her good graces to do so. He literally created his own death, to no possible benefit to himself. Two years ago, most of this forum were like, "NUH UH, LF will have a master plan! NUH UH, Sansa's marriage to Ramsay will make her a better character!" Neither is true. Sansa is essentially still the same character she was post-Ned dying in KL, except now she's been raped. That's not led to her distrusting men, or being too traumatized to be Lady Stark, or fortified her will - all it did was set her against LF.

It's lazy, shitty writing that is meant to appeal to a mass audience. It's the same problem that TWD ran into, and you seemed to acknowledge TWD had this problem but can't see it here. It's why Cleganebowl will probably happen, it's why Cersei will probably shoot down one of the dragons with her ridiculous contraption, because we love to hate Cersei, etc.

[Mavick]

They were in front and Edd actually survived the wave. He got killed when he tried to help Sam. Taking stabs is the same as "almost dying", we already discussed this, cheap tool to create an illusion of danger, since no one that mattered actually got killed.

In front of their own troops yes, the other poster was suggesting in front of the Unsullied, which I wasn't so sure of from my recollection of the pan-overs before the fighting started. And up to that point "the wave" never stops until the trenches are lit. So again, selective recollection of events, par for the course.

[Razzako]

People seem to be wayyyyy overthinking the Dothraki charge. It was a really good spectical with the flaming swords and the lights slowly blinking out, and that is what it was designed to be - a visual spectical. Light being extinguished was also a good metaphor for darkness vs. light.

I thought it looked quite beautiful, actually, and also underlined just how bad the position was for the "good guys".

Anyways, just my thoughts. I'm sure many will disagree.

Aesthetically it looked pretty, no argument there. But it was just a dumb move from their part, and that can easily trigger a lot of people who expect reasonable realism.

[Appelgren]

Amazing episode. Wasnt too dark at all unless you were watching on a phone with dial up modem connection...

Get a better tv is my best tip for the ones complaining about it being too dark. I saw everything perfectly the way it was intended.

[ohiostate124]

Amazing episode. Wasnt too dark at all unless you were watching on a phone with dial up modem connection...

Get a better tv is my best tip for the ones complaining about it being too dark. I saw everything perfectly the way it was intended.

You must be the cinematographer.

[Mavick]

Again, this is you misrepresenting what's actually been seen or known about in the world. The Faceless Men are poisoners, or they slit your throat while disguised as someone else. They're trained in typical close quarters combat.

There's no indication anywhere that they have super agility, speed, or stealth. These are all representations you are making about them, and, to me, the observer of how they've actually been portrayed, it seems like a mis-representation.

They actually have displayed those attributes, as I mentioned to you already, if you're not selectively ignoring what Jaqen was capable of doing in Harrenhal assassinating 2 people without using faces (presumably) and showing up in the very next shots being just away, with no clear indication of how he was able to do that without making the very reasonable inference of "oh shit, this guy's a super sneaky killer assassin". That's not misrepresenting a single damn thing. That's me acknowledging the narrative they're clearly laying out for these characters of the Faceless Men. Not being obtuse and saying "but I didn't have it spoonfed to me so therefor I cannot comprehend anything else".

[Jastall]

There you go, that's off the top of my head. The battle plan was pathetic, and played into the strengths of the enemy while wasting their own troops. It insults the intelligence of the viewers to suggest that the experienced warriors in Winterfell would have come up with this. The writers should rightly be villified for creating this utter nonsense.

Especially given that the show made a point of having Tyrion list the battles that the assembled characters were veterans of literally the episode prior. But nobody said anything about, at the very least, putting the trebuchets in front of the infantry line and fortifications?

[Appelgren]

You must be the cinematographer.

Ill be anything you want me to be if it makes you sleep good at night

[Mavick]

People seem to be wayyyyy overthinking the Dothraki charge. It was a really good spectical with the flaming swords and the lights slowly blinking out, and that is what it was designed to be - a visual spectical. Light being extinguished was also a good metaphor for darkness vs. light.

I thought it looked quite beautiful, actually, and also underlined just how bad the position was for the "good guys".

Anyways, just my thoughts. I'm sure many will disagree.

As Dave and DB said after the episode this is exactly what they were going for. So good on you for picking up on the vibe and I agree.

[ohiostate124]

As Dave and DB said after the episode this is exactly what they were going for. So good on you for picking up on the vibe and I agree.

It’s dumb as fuck but it looked cool - perfectly describes D&D at this point.

[hulkgor]

People seem to be wayyyyy overthinking the Dothraki charge. It was a really good spectical with the flaming swords and the lights slowly blinking out, and that is what it was designed to be - a visual spectical. Light being extinguished was also a good metaphor for darkness vs. light.

I thought it looked quite beautiful, actually, and also underlined just how bad the position was for the "good guys".

Anyways, just my thoughts. I'm sure many will disagree.

The problem with it is giving priority to a good spectacle over good storytelling, and people should absolutely be upset about it.

[Mavick]

The problem with it is giving priority to a good spectacle over good storytelling, and people should absolutely be upset about it.

As I pointed out earlier, people tend to get hung up on this but I'd love to see a good suggestion on just HOW you use the Dothraki here. All we've ever seen them due is charge in and overwhelm and enemy with pure brutality and fear, but what happens when those things don't exist in the enemy? In terms of the storytelling, as D&B allude too in the ITO, the plan seemed to be to have them engage and hopefully make something of a dent to help provoke the NK himself into direct combat, but this obviously didn't work. Neither did damn near anything else they tried until near the end, when the outcome was almost certainly in the NK's favor.

[ohiostate124]

As I pointed out earlier, people tend to get hung up on this but I'd love to see a good suggestion on just HOW you use the Dothraki here. All we've ever seen them due is charge in and overwhelm and enemy with pure brutality and fear, but what happens when those things don't exist in the enemy? In terms of the storytelling, as D&B allude too in the ITO, the plan seemed to be to have them engage and hopefully make something of a dent to help provoke the NK himself into direct combat, but this obviously didn't work. Neither did damn near anything else they tried until near the end, when the outcome was almost certainly in the NK's favor.

Aren’t the Dothraki supposed to be amazing archers? That seems like a pretty good use for them.

[Mavick]

Aren’t the Dothraki supposed to be amazing archers? That seems like a pretty good use for them.

On horseback, yeah I've seen them use that. But again that's always been in conjunction with a horse charge. So I'm not sure how much difference that would ultimately make. Point I'm making, I guess, is that we've never seen the Dothraki alluded to as being anything along the lines of a defensive force. They've only ever just charged, so this really isn't breaking any of the "known rules", so to speak, regarding them.

[Okacz]

Unless im mistaken, isnt Theon the only person the Night King has killed himself?

Well, Theon did a sort of suicide charge there, so I would say he killed himself. Still 0 kills for Blue Darth Maul.

People seem to be wayyyyy overthinking the Dothraki charge. It was a really good spectical with the flaming swords and the lights slowly blinking out, and that is what it was designed to be - a visual spectical. Light being extinguished was also a good metaphor for darkness vs. light.

I thought it looked quite beautiful, actually, and also underlined just how bad the position was for the "good guys".

Anyways, just my thoughts. I'm sure many will disagree.

It's true, but you can make a scene both look awesome, dramatic AND not idiotic. Imagine a scene where Jon sends Sam to parley with Night King for a truce. Then a scene with zoom on Jon's face when he is dramatically crying hearing his former friend being torn to shreds. Sad music in the background of course. It would be sad, beautiful, light being extinguished AND really, really dumb.

If anything, the episode really missed on some really awesome and cool looking moments. I mean, the fight between Lyanna Mormont and a Giant was all sorts of awesome - more of that. There was a lot of potential for cool dragonfights, wasted on a short biting scene with 2 black dragons on black background. White Daddies, none of them got to fight ANYONE in the episode, Jorah was freaking set up for that with his new Valyrian steel sword - same with Brienne, with an awesome blade and new title from previous episode could kick some WW ass. And I can't believe they had a Skyrim dragon fight setup with Jon and BlueDrake that has LANDED in Winterfell and never used it. Crypt scene, why even show zombies rising if there's no epic fight between Tyrion and Ancient Draugr Stark?

That's why I can't get over this episode, not only didn't it make much sense but also wasted all potential for a truly epic battle. 50% of runtime was spent on closeups of Brienne/Jaime/Squire/Tormund acting like they are struggling against zombies and grunting, 30% was this shitty Assassins Creed cutscene with Arya in library.

[eschatological]

They actually have displayed those attributes, as I mentioned to you already, if you're not selectively ignoring what Jaqen was capable of doing in Harrenhal assassinating 2 people without using faces (presumably) and showing up in the very next shots being just away, with no clear indication of how he was able to do that without making the very reasonable inference of "oh shit, this guy's a super sneaky killer assassin". That's not misrepresenting a single damn thing. That's me acknowledging the narrative they're clearly laying out for these characters of the Faceless Men. Not being obtuse and saying "but I didn't have it spoonfed to me so therefor I cannot comprehend anything else".

I had to re-watch these scenes to see if what you said made any sense. It didn't.

Jaqen is clearly a guard, and Arya asks him to kill people he's on cordial terms with. She asks him first to kill the Tickler, and the scene cuts away......some time has passed, the Tickler shows up dead, his head twisted backwards on his body, below a window which Jaqen is sitting in. The implication here is not that Jaqen stealthed up on him in the courtyard, then magically teleported up; the courtyard is out in the open, in the middle of the keep. Jaqen worked with the Tickler. He probably observed him (like the FM do), found him in a dark corridor with no witnesses, broke his neck, and threw him out a window. That seems to be the reasonable interpretation of what happened off-screen, not your weird "he's a sneaky assassin" extrapolation.

Then Arya names a second name, and she wants it done now (which should be reasonable for any sneaky assassin), and Jaqen responds, "A girl cannot tell a man when exactly he must do a thing. A man cannot make a thing happen before its time." Arya insists on now. The scene cuts away, and cuts to Lorch falling through a door, dead, a weapon with Lannister red sticking out of neck - the man is also a fellow guard, and Jaqen need not sneak up on him at all, just get close enough to stick him with the pointy end.

Then Arya wants to know how long it'll take for a third name. "A minute, an hour, a month," says Jaqen. "Death is certain...the time is not." She demands he kill Tywin Lannister, and Jaqen says he cannot do that. Then she asks for the guards to be killed, something he achieves offscreen, and again, the reasonable explanation is that HE, as a guard himself, just walks up to them and kills them. We never see it.


I feel like Jaqen's insistence that names can take a month (presumably of observation, of being "seen but not seen" and then striking quickly) or more, and the religiousness of his "the time is not come" stance indicates to me that he's not a sneaky stealth assassin, but a magic-using disguised assassin who ingratiates himself into the lives of his victims to make them let their guard down. A thing he could achieve in HArrenhal easily because he was conscripted into the guards already.

And again, I feel like my representation (that he used his status as guard) is a much more reasonable representation than yours, that Jaqen needs to sneak around to kill people. Even if this is an edge case (I don't think it is), it can be interpreted multiple ways, and in hindsight, a reasonable observer who now knows the tactics of the FM from Arya's training, must conclude that's how he did it.

[Mavick]

I had to re-watch these scenes to see if what you said made any sense. It didn't.

Jaqen is clearly a guard, and Arya asks him to kill people he's on cordial terms with. She asks him first to kill the Tickler, and the scene cuts away......some time has passed, the Tickler shows up dead, his head twisted backwards on his body, below a window which Jaqen is sitting in. The implication here is not that Jaqen stealthed up on him in the courtyard, then magically teleported up; the courtyard is out in the open, in the middle of the keep. Jaqen worked with the Tickler. He probably observed him (like the FM do), found him in a dark corridor with no witnesses, broke his neck, and threw him out a window. That seems to be the reasonable interpretation of what happened off-screen, not your weird "he's a sneaky assassin" extrapolation.

Then Arya names a second name, and she wants it done now (which should be reasonable for any sneaky assassin), and Jaqen responds, "A girl cannot tell a man when exactly he must do a thing. A man cannot make a thing happen before its time." Arya insists on now. The scene cuts away, and cuts to Lorch falling through a door, dead, a weapon with Lannister red sticking out of neck - the man is also a fellow guard, and Jaqen need not sneak up on him at all, just get close enough to stick him with the pointy end.

Then Arya wants to know how long it'll take for a third name. "A minute, an hour, a month," says Jaqen. "Death is certain...the time is not." She demands he kill Tywin Lannister, and Jaqen says he cannot do that. Then she asks for the guards to be killed, something he achieves offscreen, and again, the reasonable explanation is that HE, as a guard himself, just walks up to them and kills them. We never see it.


I feel like Jaqen's insistence that names can take a month (presumably of observation, of being "seen but not seen" and then striking quickly) or more, and the religiousness of his "the time is not come" stance indicates to me that he's not a sneaky stealth assassin, but a magic-using disguised assassin who ingratiates himself into the lives of his victims to make them let their guard down. A thing he could achieve in HArrenhal easily because he was conscripted into the guards already.

And again, I feel like my representation (that he used his status as guard) is a much more reasonable representation than yours, that Jaqen needs to sneak around to kill people. Even if this is an edge case (I don't think it is), it can be interpreted multiple ways, and in hindsight, a reasonable observer who now knows the tactics of the FM from Arya's training, must conclude that's how he did it.

You're still yet ignoring the fact that even if he says it can take a month, when push comes to shove he can make it happen right away. As for being a guard, that's all fine and good but you still can't take these actions in a heavily fortified area filled with OTHER GUARDS in plain view, so that makes absolutely no difference as you still can't be seen doing what you're doing regardless of what outfit you have on.

Do you want to keep going with this?

Also, at this point I'm going to have to point out that the level and effort you're going to simply to attempt to disprove the notion that a trained assassin shouldn't be capable of doing what Arya did has lost you any footing to claim you're not just doing this out of some sick form of spite to hate on something that doesn't deserve it.