[TV/Books] Game of Thrones ***SPOILER Discussion***

[Isilrien]

I know you were talking about the show. My point was that we don't know much about the Others in the book, so it's hard to know if the show is going against Martin's intentions in the way they are showing the White Walkers. I believe that it is indeed hard, even in the show, to tell if human characters are truely evil in the way villains are traditionally portrayed in that genre. Most characters, even Cersei, have some nuances. As for the White Walkers, I wonder if we can really say they are evil. They are an evil, a threat to humanity's survival, but I can't say they are morally evil. The Night King did not have a choice to become the Night King. It was imposed on him by the Children of the Forest (unless the prequel series tells us otherwise). As I explained in an other post, to me the WWs are a weapon of mass destruction that is simply following its purpose. It may still be that way in the books.

Good point, and I see your argument. Just to clarify: When I discribed the NK as purely evil, I'm basing this on what Bran said--that he intends and wants to destroy all of humanity. Perhaps Bran is wrong, and given that he has been wrong before (i.e., calling Jon a Sand), he could very have been wrong about the NK's intentions. If it comes out in the remaining episodes that he was more nuanced and 'grey' than that, then my objection will no longer hold any weight. As of right now, with the way the NK was portrayed in the show, he is purely evil. If it remains this way, then my objection that D&D departed from Martin's outlook stands. I recognize that the NK had no choice, but I'm not sure how he could justify wanting to destroy those who did not do this to him (if that was his intention).

I was talking about the last episode. Bran had to worg to goad the Night King to attack and show himself. Then Jon and Dany attacks him on their dragons, and it doesn't work well in all that storm (created by the Night King). The Night King falls, but is unharmed. Jon falls too on Rhaegal. Dany attempts to burn him with dragon fire, but to no avail. Then Jon charges the Night King, but he raises the dead, Jon gets surrounded and the Night King can go to the Godswood. Drogon gets overwhelmed by wights, Dany is left alone, with Jorah. Jon manages to follow the Night King, but Viserion guards the gates to the godswood and he still can't get to the Night King. Theon and the Iron Born fail to protect Bran. Bran was all but dead, and it's only after a desperate attempt that Arya manages to save the day. And to do that, she had to use the numerous skills she has learned from Syrio Forel and the Faceless Men to survive the onslaught in Winterfell and get to the godswood. It was not a stroll in the park.

Ah, I see what you mean. Thanks for taking the time to explain.

True... All comparisons fail at some point. But GoT and LotR are different stories too. In LotR, there is a clear quest given to one character. There is not one plot in GoT. It is more character driven. Each character has its own story arc and personal struggles, each has its own journey to Mount Doom. Like Bran said, each character had to live through all those pains to become what they were at last and be ready to confront the WWs. Arya has eaten a lot of shit before she became the assassin able to "surprise" (barely) and kill the Night King. In a way, it is more realistic. We do not live our whole life to face one specific event. We develop our skills and than we can face what is thrown at us.

Oh, indeed--LOTR and GoT are different. I was only responding to your comment that the destruction of the ring at Mount Doom and the death of the NK were somewhat analogous. They are but only to an extent, as you've discussed here. You've made some excellent points here about the struggle, so to be fair, I will need to take what you've said into consideration and change my opinion if it's ultimately persuasive. Again, thanks for the thoughtful, respectful discussion.

Anyway, I will admit, that yes, I was a bit disappointed too at first, although I enjoyed the episode. I'm just trying to explain it all. Because I do not think that Benioff and Weiss are bad writers. Neither are they perfect writers. "Bad writing" is an accusation that is being thrown far too easily for my taste these days. Mostly by people who are disgruntled that their expectations are not met. The others are often people who believe that being overly negative gives them more critical thought. In the end, they can even tell you that a show will suck before they have even seen one picture, read one line or even know the casting...

I'm not trying to be negative just to be critical, so I hope it doesn't come across that way. I'm in graduate school, so I tend to pick apart everything I read or watch for both what worked and what didn't seem to work as well. I'm still processing what I think about this build-up of the NK as a serious existential threat, and yet who was vanquished in one battle (regardless of how challenging and overwhelming it was). I'm starting to think that I bought into the seriousness of it such that this episode seemed to treat it a little too casually. But I'm open to re-assessing that, and also seeing what the remaining episodes have to say, as it were.

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I think Arya is going to kill one of the Children of the Forest.

Completely and frivolously off-topic, but everytime I see the Children, I think this must be what Barkskin looks like on Druids (or Ironbark on those we cast it on) :-p

[Frontenac]

I'm not sure I follow your comparisons to Lord of the Rings. The Witch King had no personal interactions with any of the characters. There was no build up at all for any of them in the story. Yes we are told about the history of Aragorn's ancestry but we don't experience it.

Still, that meager historical link between Aragorn and the Witch King was more than what Eowyn had. My point was that it is not necessary that a character had a relation with a villain to kill it. The fact the Witch King just killed Theoden was reason enough for Eowyn to intervene.

As for Sauron then I also fail to see the similarities. None of the characters were ever going to fight him physically. There was never a build up between him and Aragorn like there was between Jon and the NK.

Oh, I'm not so sure. It is pretty clear that Aragorn's mission is to confront Sauron and win back the throne of Gondor. And Aragorn is Sauron's main concern. He is the Heir of Isildur. When Aragorn confronts him when he uses the palantir from Orthanc, and shows to him the very blade that defeated him during the last war, Sauron is pretty sure that Aragorn has the Ring and that he will use it against him. In fact there is more history between Aragorn and Sauron than there is between Jon and the Night King. Jon wants to stop the WWs and the Night King, but there was no big target marked "Jon Snow's property" on the Night King's forehead. His main role has always been to assemble the most people possible to confront the WWs, but that does not mean that he was destined to personally kill him. At this point everyone was struggling to end the Night King.

It was all about the ring. And Frodo brought it all the way to the edge of the lava pit in Mount Doom.

And failed. Just like Jon Snow who tried to reach the Night King but failed at the godswood's gate.

And then Gollum another character with a deep attachment to the ring ended up destroying it.

And here instead you have Arya succeeding where Jon failed. But then you will say "there's no story between Arya and the Night King." No there isn't, and like I said with Eowyn there's no need to be. Bran was her brother and she saved him. She saved her pack and her home. The assassin who learned her art in a death cult killed the king of the Undead. That's not so bad.

[ohiostate124]

Perfect video. Nails it all. Especially the end rant:

This video is cathartic

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Toby Osmond in seville


I think that toby can be Quentyn Martell

Interesting. Not sure how I feel about bringing in Quentyn at this point though.

[Mavick]

Guys, don't bother. He's kinda right you know. It's the reason a lot if not most tv shows are shite these days, cause of viewers like him who can't sit down to think for 5 seconds.

Actually I do think. That's why I can connect the dots and remember things that others here have not. I'm not the lazy one who writes "Arya killing the NK like that makes no sense" and leaves it at that. One side is definitely not thinking, but it isn't mine.

[Frontenac]

Good point, and I see your argument. Just to clarify: When I discribed the NK as purely evil, I'm basing this on what Bran said--that he intends and wants to destroy all of humanity. Perhaps Bran is wrong, and given that he has been wrong before (i.e., calling Jon a Sand), he could very have been wrong about the NK's intentions. If it comes out in the remaining episodes that he was more nuanced and 'grey' than that, then my objection will no longer hold any weight. As of right now, with the way the NK was portrayed in the show, he is purely evil. If it remains this way, then my objection that D&D departed from Martin's outlook stands. I recognize that the NK had no choice, but I'm not sure how he could justify wanting to destroy those who did not do this to him (if that was his intention).

Does he even have free will in that matter? I mean, he is an intelligent being, but he may not have a choice in this matter. He was rigged by the Children of the Forest to destroy humanity. He cannot help it. But, yeah, I admit that is mere speculation on my part. I'm just telling it as I see it.

I'm not trying to be negative just to be critical, so I hope it doesn't come across that way. I'm in graduate school, so I tend to pick apart everything I read or watch for both what worked and what didn't seem to work as well. I'm still processing what I think about this build-up of the NK as a serious existential threat, and yet who was vanquished in one battle (regardless of how challenging and overwhelming it was). I'm starting to think that I bought into the seriousness of it such that this episode seemed to treat it a little too casually. But I'm open to re-assessing that, and also seeing what the remaining episodes have to say, as it were.

Don't worry, it was not aimed at you. This conversation is indeed interesting.

Completely and frivolously off-topic, but everytime I see the Children, I think this must be what Barkskin looks like on Druids (or Ironbark on those we cast it on) :-p

You are not alone:

[Mascotte]

This video is cathartic

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Interesting. Not sure how I feel about bringing in Quentyn at this point though.

They might need all the help they can to combat Cersei at this point.
The Dorthraki are basically gone and the unsullied are turned into Greyjoy and his band of brothers.
The Martell house still has a score to settle in Kings Landing..

[ohiostate124]

I’m expected the Golden Company to betray Cersei at some point.

[Mascotte]

Worth re-posting this. It summarizes my thoughts perfectly.

There is no coming back from this. Game of Thrones is ruined. I only hope GRRM gets off his ass and finishes the story properly.

He told them 'his' ending years ago, so the ending you may not like might very well be the ending he's aiming at in the books.
But with GRRM turning 70 last year he could legit die before the books reach that point.
I know he used to get very upset when confronted with this fact but 2 years later and still no new book, let alone a final book, its slowly becoming reality.
Not everyone gets to be 80+. The show might just be an insurance the story gets told..

[-aiko-]

He told them 'his' ending years ago, so the ending you may not like might very well be the ending he's aiming at in the books.

That's the thing, though. At this point it's not the direction the ending is headed that is frustrating, it's the journey that we're going through to get there. I'm not too upset that Arya got the killing blow, for example. I'm upset with how it happened. I'm not upset with the living winning the battle of Winterfell. I'm upset with how it happened.

If these plot points were both to happen in the books, I would be willing to accept them if the events leading up to them were believable and interesting.

[Marfrila]

Still, that meager historical link between Aragorn and the Witch King was more than what Eowyn had. My point was that it is not necessary that a character had a relation with a villain to kill it. The fact the Witch King just killed Theoden was reason enough for Eowyn to intervene.

No, a character doesn't need to have a relation with a villain to kill it. But it makes the story much better and more memorable if they do.

Oh, I'm not so sure. It is pretty clear that Aragorn's mission is to confront Sauron and win back the throne of Gondor. And Aragorn is Sauron's main concern. He is the Heir of Isildur. When Aragorn confronts him when he uses the palantir from Orthanc, and shows to him the very blade that defeated him during the last war, Sauron is pretty sure that Aragorn has the Ring and that he will use it against him. In fact there is more history between Aragorn and Sauron than there is between Jon and the Night King. Jon wants to stop the WWs and the Night King, but there was no big target marked "Jon Snow's property" on the Night King's forehead. His main role has always been to assemble the most people possible to confront the WWs, but that does not mean that he was destined to personally kill him. At this point everyone was struggling to end the Night King.

I think it's pretty clear that Sauron wouldn't be confronted unless he got the ring first and then Middle Earth stood no chance anyway. Aragorn's mission was always to assist the ring bearer. And he did that to the very end. Which is why the scene where he and his army charges the gates of Mordor is so fulfilling.

And failed. Just like Jon Snow who tried to reach the Night King but failed at the godswood's gate.

Yes Frodo failed. But then something better and a more symbolic thing happens. Gollum because of his greed and infatuation with the ring (something it uses to manipulate its bearers) falls to his death in order to get it. Those things become both Gollum's and the ring's downfall. Frodo's failure leads to an even better story. I really don't think Jon's failure leads to a better story.

And here instead you have Arya succeeding where Jon failed. But then you will say "there's no story between Arya and the Night King." No there isn't, and like I said with Eowyn there's no need to be. Bran was her brother and she saved him. She saved her pack and her home. The assassin who learned her art in a death cult killed the king of the Undead. That's not so bad.

I would aim for more than not so bad.

Let me ask you this. Do you think that if you could ask Arya whether her character arc is done she would say yes? Hell no. Her aim has almost always been crossing everyone off her list. I think we can assume Cersei is the only one left. Her character arc is done when she is dead. Preferably with Arya killing her. So one of the main plot lines is ended with a character killing the NK without it fulling said character's arc. It just feels hollow.

[Rhlor]

They might need all the help they can to combat Cersei at this point.
The Dorthraki are basically gone and the unsullied are turned into Greyjoy and his band of brothers.
The Martell house still has a score to settle in Kings Landing..

this! and more information

"Osmond wrote something very interesting in his bio:

Earlier this year completed filming a great royal role in the next (and final) series of an epic network fantasy saga (airing Spring 2019)."
https://winteriscoming.net/2018/10/2...ones-season-8/

he has to be quentyn

[Dacien]

This guy gets it.

https://www.reddit.com/r/gameofthron...that_scene_on/

[Isilrien]

Does he even have free will in that matter? I mean, he is an intelligent being, but he may not have a choice in this matter. He was rigged by the Children of the Forest to destroy humanity. He cannot help it. But, yeah, I admit that is mere speculation on my part. I'm just telling it as I see it.

Hmm. That's an interesting thought. I wonder if we'll ever find out. So you lean to the side that he has no free will? If so, that's pretty powerful magic.

[Omega10]

Anyone else have super low expectations for this episode? My prediction: lots of hemming and hawing about Jon vs. Dany with zero resolution and a minimal lead up to the battle in episode 5. Not clear where the battle will be necessarily, but that’s all they’ve got.

My expectation is that 8.4 will be almost like a 9.1. 8.1 -> 8.3 was season 8, and 8.4 -> 8.6 will be like a concluding season, completely different from 8.1 -> 8.3.

I thoroughly enjoyed 8.3 - to me it was my favorite episode of all time. I have watched it numerous times, and it is still an emotional experience for me. I started really liking Arya in about season 5 - I liked her before, but I became a real fan of her in season 5 and season 6. I screamed when she killed the Night King instead of dying. The new King Slayer

8.3 was the single most intense emotional episode of the whole series for me. To me, Arya killing the Night King is the only event that has surpassed the beheading of Ned Stark (the Red Wedding is now number 3 for me).

I have watched it 5 times, and plan to watch it multiple more times. I am very satisfied with season 8. I am looking forward to its conclusion

[Jastall]

Let me ask you this. Do you think that if you could ask Arya whether her character arc is done she would say yes? Hell no. Her aim has almost always been crossing everyone off her list. I think we can assume Cersei is the only one left. Her character arc is done when she is dead. Preferably with Arya killing her. So one of the main plot lines is ended with a character killing the NK without it fulling said character's arc. It just feels hollow.

That's a great way to put it, I fully agree. Jon's arc feels like a let-down because ultimately, he was useless and would have been killed. Arya killing the NK was done for the surprise value, but she's so shoe-horned in the plot that it's hard to feel anything but let down. It's as if Hagrid killed Voldemort by throwing a Mandrake at him. Would it make sense within the story's context? Yes. Would it be actually satisfying? Nope.

[Tekkommo]

My main argument is that regardless of where the NK came from, they decided to use him as the personification of the threat, which is fine, but the way that threat was handled, seemed deeply disappointing.

I do understand some of the complaints, but myself I've never expected the threat beyond the wall to be the endgame, I expected him to be defeated early in this season. I was disappointed to not see a 1 on 1 with the NK and Jon Snow, but the more I think about it, how could it actually be done? The NK controls all the dead, there would be no 1 on 1, if he was in a battle, he would have the dead swarm his location.

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This guy gets it.

https://www.reddit.com/r/gameofthron...that_scene_on/

Yeah when I see shit like this, I'm certain that is not their first watch.

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Anyone else have super low expectations for this episode?

You'll enjoy it more with lower expectations.

I always find my second watch is better, as I am always wanting certain things to happen on my first watch.

I made my peace with the show in s6 (s5 was the poorest for me), after it passed the books it turned more into a normal tv show. I don't let things like fast map travel, questionable tactics or poorer dialogue bother me. It's still a fantastic show and since it's passed the books, it's arguably had some of the best episodes.

The main things that piss me off at the moment are Sansa and Euron, he's just shit. Brienne has always be annoying, but she was super annoying with her plot armour and screaming in e3.

[korijenkins]

The show is going to end with many, many, many unanswered questions that will have to wait for the books.

I'm okay with that, the books are superior in basically every way (except Tyrion's physical appearance)

[Tekkommo]

I’m expected the Golden Company to betray Cersei at some point.

I really want this to happen, but the way it's looking, we're getting no backstory and they are just mercenaries.

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The show is going to end with many, many, many unanswered questions that will have to wait for the books.

Ignore what you have learned from the books, what is unanswered from the tv show? We'll likely not get any explanation on what Bran knew or did. It's not always the best idea to explain everything, and I doubt we'll get that from the books as well (if they ever get finished, and that's a big IF).

[Rhlor]

I really want this to happen, but the way it's looking, we're getting no backstory and they are just mercenaries.

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Ignore what you have learned from the books, what is unanswered from the tv show? We'll likely not get any explanation on what Bran knew or did. It's not always the best idea to explain everything, and I doubt we'll get that from the books as well (if they ever get finished, and that's a big IF).

if it were the golden company of the books I think it would be possible for them to side with aegon VI

[Tekkommo]

if it were the golden company of the books I think it would be possible for them to side with aegon VI

I don't see how they will find out that Jon is Aegon, I can see it remaining a secret.

They wanted to join Dany in the books, so that will be no surprise if it happens.