[TV/Books] Game of Thrones ***SPOILER Discussion***

[Thekri]

Any source for GRRM's words on this matter? Not that I mistrust you or anything, I just remembered that the showrunners once said their ending would be broadly similar to the book's and would like to see what Martin's take is.

Here you go, here is one instance. He has been relatively vocal about not getting along to well with the people that wrote the later seasons. He hasn't explicitly acknowledged the existence of Season 8 yet, and reportedly never even read the scripts.

[crakerjack]

I couldn't agree with you more.

I feel like the Night King should have been the final fight. The show feels different knowing the great ancient evil is dead.

I always liked how everyone was so focused on the Iron Throne when the Night King could careless who sits on the throne and will kill everyone regardless.

They rushed this season at the great expense of quality unfortunately.

I'm glad they did kill him off worst. There's nothing more typical in a fantasy world than for some ancient evil to be the typical main antagonist. Hell, the dude didn't have a single line and was dull. What did you really expect out of him? Ever since they aired the episode showcasing how he came to be, it was pretty evident this dude has no massive story. He's just a necromancer with an undead army, that's it. How is that more interesting than unpredictable humans with various motives and sabotage? The night king was a straight line, more linear than a CoD campaign. His one and only purpose was to wipe out life.

[enigma77]

Season 8 isn't really Game of Thrones.

[Thekri]

I'm glad they did kill him off worst. There's nothing more typical in a fantasy world than for some ancient evil to be the typical main antagonist. Hell, the dude didn't have a single line and was dull. What did you really expect out of him? Ever since they aired the episode showcasing how he came to be, it was pretty evident this dude has no massive story. He's just a necromancer with an undead army, that's it. How is that more interesting than unpredictable humans with various motives and sabotage? The night king was a straight line, more linear than a CoD campaign. His one and only purpose was to wipe out life.

Agreed, but I really wish they had attempted to do something interesting with him. They completely created him for the show, and then didn't bother developing him at all. He was basically a cardboard cutout. In the books the White Walkers are an ancient and mysterious race with very alien and unknown motives. They serve as a constant and looming menace that threatens the entire world with ultimate destruction if humans don't get their act together. The show sort of tries this, but they staple the whole concept to a single flat character that dies to a knife. The function of the Night King is basically a kill switch on the entire zombie threat. The book White Walkers have no such weakness, and a lot more mystery behind them.

[Jastall]

Here you go, here is one instance. He has been relatively vocal about not getting along to well with the people that wrote the later seasons. He hasn't explicitly acknowledged the existence of Season 8 yet, and reportedly never even read the scripts.

Thanks. He does says the major points will be the same, so I expect that the books will also feature the living being victorious over the dead and that the fate of the Iron Throne will be similar, whatever it is. But the article does make it look like the path there will be very different, which is fine honestly, I don't have too much of a problem with the story's major plot beats and concepts, and more with the execution.

This all assumes GRRM ever actually finishes the damn books in the first place. Which may take even longer if he decides to change things so the show doesn't spoil them, ugh.

[Thekri]

Thanks. He does says the major points will be the same, so I expect that the books will also feature the living being victorious over the dead and that the fate of the Iron Throne will be similar, whatever it is. But the article does make it look like the path there will be very different, which is fine honestly, I don't have too much of a problem with the story's major plot beats and concepts, and more with the execution.

This all assumes GRRM ever actually finishes the damn books in the first place. Which may take even longer if he decides to change things so the show doesn't spoil them, ugh.

Well the path would have to be different because Martin has a lot more characters rolling around doing important stuff then the show does. He has a couple of important artifacts (Including one that can apparently hijack dragons), a completely different type of undead character and a lot more other things going on.

Speaking of the other type of undead character, what was going on with the show's Uncle Benjin? The show explained absolutely nothing about him, they just used him as a deus ex machina in the back pocket of every Stark north of the wall. Was he supposed to still be alive? Why didn't he go back to the wall if so? In the books he is clearly either dead or permanently changed into something not quite human.

[Steelcryo]

It pained my eyes to watch the scene. Cersei could have wiped them all if she wanted. The sheer stupidity of the plot really shines at the moments like that.

To be fair it kind of showed they thought about that as the dragon was off in the back, at least that's what I assume was the point, to be out of range of the scorpions. Still, considering how easily those scorpions nailed the dragons in the air from a boat, I'd still say where it was was in range but they at least thought about it and probably just wanted to show the dragon. As for killing Dany, that wouldn't really solve anything, Jon and the armies would still come. Cersei is kinda cruel and probably thinks she's going to win easily and wants to see Dany defeated with no army or friends left before killing her.

[PACOX]

I'd take Jon over Dany even though he knows nothing. Show Dany was a bit better than book Dany, but not by much in my estimation.

Sadly Jon has never tended to his leadership posts long enough for us to determine what kind of leader he'd be...except for an absent one.

[Dacien]

Guys I just got on board with GoT a few weeks ago, if you could remain excited and enthusiastic about the show I'd appreciate it a lot.

[Endus]

https://www.express.co.uk/entertainm...ron-Throne-die

Y'know, I'd take that more seriously if I were still waiting anxiously for the next book. But I'm not. The first couple books were great, but 3 and 4 were a massive slog, especially given that they both cover the same time period, just separating between the continents. And there's not a huge amount that happens, that really matters, at least. Everything up to the Red Wedding, in the books and the show, is gold. After that, it starts to flag, and you start realizing that while Martin had a start to a story, he had no idea where it was ending. It's funny to give a character all the hallmarks of the epic hero, and then murder them in the face in the first half of the first book; it knocks the reader off balance. The Red Wedding was a second hit. But continuing to knock the reader off balance isn't a story, and it doesn't go anywhere.

GoT is basically Jackass: Fantasy Writer Edition. "Oooh, he's not gonna, HE'S NOT GONNA, OH MY GOD HE DID THE ABSOLUTE MADMAN". Repeat until bored because there's nothing else to it. It's a shame because that first half was great, it's just not sticking the landing, and you can't start a story with "everyone dies, brutally and without warning" and then tie it all off with a happy bow with everyone's story coming to a satisfying end.

I think that's the biggest issue; between Ned Stark's death and the Red Wedding, the first season said "no one is safe, we don't care if you think they're awesome". And lately, the only people dying are minor characters, or secondary characters whose stories are done (and really, the last few episodes, that's Theon, and that's it). Killing a character after the conclusion of their arc is lazy; you don't want to bother with the character, so you off them. The deaths that MATTER to the audience are those where they've got a story we wanted to see and now we never will. That's why Ned and Rob's deaths mattered. And it's why none of the deaths in S8 have.

[Thekri]

Sadly Jon has never tended to his leadership posts long enough for us to determine what kind of leader he'd be...except for an absent one.

Yep, lol. His first reaction to every new position is promptly abandon it, then he comes back, gets promoted, then declares he doesn't want the job any more.

Steward to Mormont? Nope, headed South to join Rob. Still Steward? Going North with Rangers now, sorry if you get murdered while I am gone. Lord Commander? Going to chill with my wildling bros, because I never learned what delegating is. Still Lord Commander, but murdered now? Fine, I quit (Ok, this one is pretty reasonable. When your subordinates murder you it is time to find a new job). King in the North? Nope, going south, then north, then quit being King.

This is part of why I don't like the character of Jon. Everyone else props him up to a ridiculous degree, and he is given a ton of informed abilities we don't actually see. Everyone thinks he has potential, but most of his ideas are terrible. Everyone thinks he can lead for some reason, but he has never been able to actually lead anyone effectively, his subordinates are always revolting against him.

And of course he has a bad case of being a genetic hero. Why exactly this matters isn't very clear, since a significant number of Targaryen's are absolute assholes. But the "Divine Right of Kings" schtick just won't die for some reason. Why we are still using Medieval propaganda as a plot device is really weird. You aren't qualified to lead anything because you came out of a royal vagina.

[La]

Y'know, I'd take that more seriously if I were still waiting anxiously for the next book. But I'm not. The first couple books were great, but 3 and 4 were a massive slog, especially given that they both cover the same time period, just separating between the continents. And there's not a huge amount that happens, that really matters, at least. Everything up to the Red Wedding, in the books and the show, is gold. After that, it starts to flag, and you start realizing that while Martin had a start to a story, he had no idea where it was ending. It's funny to give a character all the hallmarks of the epic hero, and then murder them in the face in the first half of the first book; it knocks the reader off balance. The Red Wedding was a second hit. But continuing to knock the reader off balance isn't a story, and it doesn't go anywhere.

GoT is basically Jackass: Fantasy Writer Edition. "Oooh, he's not gonna, HE'S NOT GONNA, OH MY GOD HE DID THE ABSOLUTE MADMAN". Repeat until bored because there's nothing else to it. It's a shame because that first half was great, it's just not sticking the landing, and you can't start a story with "everyone dies, brutally and without warning" and then tie it all off with a happy bow with everyone's story coming to a satisfying end.

I think that's the biggest issue; between Ned Stark's death and the Red Wedding, the first season said "no one is safe, we don't care if you think they're awesome". And lately, the only people dying are minor characters, or secondary characters whose stories are done (and really, the last few episodes, that's Theon, and that's it). Killing a character after the conclusion of their arc is lazy; you don't want to bother with the character, so you off them. The deaths that MATTER to the audience are those where they've got a story we wanted to see and now we never will. That's why Ned and Rob's deaths mattered. And it's why none of the deaths in S8 have.

The show AND the book both died with Tywin, and for how pretentious some book readers can be when it comes to them vs a movie, or a tv show, it's surprising how many don't accept that. Regardless of that, it's amazing how GRRM at his "meh" is still a dozen leagues above D&D when it comes to writing - and it absolutely shows after S6.

Is this cool? Is this sudden and shocking? Any thought, but not "Does this make sense?" for those guys.

[Thekri]

Y'know, I'd take that more seriously if I were still waiting anxiously for the next book. But I'm not. The first couple books were great, but 3 and 4 were a massive slog, especially given that they both cover the same time period, just separating between the continents. And there's not a huge amount that happens, that really matters, at least. Everything up to the Red Wedding, in the books and the show, is gold. After that, it starts to flag, and you start realizing that while Martin had a start to a story, he had no idea where it was ending. It's funny to give a character all the hallmarks of the epic hero, and then murder them in the face in the first half of the first book; it knocks the reader off balance. The Red Wedding was a second hit. But continuing to knock the reader off balance isn't a story, and it doesn't go anywhere.

GoT is basically Jackass: Fantasy Writer Edition. "Oooh, he's not gonna, HE'S NOT GONNA, OH MY GOD HE DID THE ABSOLUTE MADMAN". Repeat until bored because there's nothing else to it. It's a shame because that first half was great, it's just not sticking the landing, and you can't start a story with "everyone dies, brutally and without warning" and then tie it all off with a happy bow with everyone's story coming to a satisfying end.

I think that's the biggest issue; between Ned Stark's death and the Red Wedding, the first season said "no one is safe, we don't care if you think they're awesome". And lately, the only people dying are minor characters, or secondary characters whose stories are done (and really, the last few episodes, that's Theon, and that's it). Killing a character after the conclusion of their arc is lazy; you don't want to bother with the character, so you off them. The deaths that MATTER to the audience are those where they've got a story we wanted to see and now we never will. That's why Ned and Rob's deaths mattered. And it's why none of the deaths in S8 have.

I think this is exactly what is going on. Combine all that with the fact that the value of the IP has skyrocketed to the point where the creators (Which at this point is the show, since they are ahead of Martin) are scared to kill off main characters to avoid that exact problem of losing reader investment.

But the first 5 seasons didn't seem to have any plot armor. Major characters died to intrigue all the time. Ned, Robert Baratheon, Rob Stark, Caitlyn, Twyin, the list goes on. But as time went on, you started to only expect major deaths in season finales. In fact, the show killed characters even more then the books did, with dozens of character deaths that weren't in the books. (For instance, Ser Barristan is still Dany's Hand in the books.)

But in season eight, plot armor seems invincible. You know that the important characters won't die until their arcs are complete.

[PACOX]

Agreed, but I really wish they had attempted to do something interesting with him. They completely created him for the show, and then didn't bother developing him at all. He was basically a cardboard cutout. In the books the White Walkers are an ancient and mysterious race with very alien and unknown motives. They serve as a constant and looming menace that threatens the entire world with ultimate destruction if humans don't get their act together. The show sort of tries this, but they staple the whole concept to a single flat character that dies to a knife. The function of the Night King is basically a kill switch on the entire zombie threat. The book White Walkers have no such weakness, and a lot more mystery behind them.

Notice how they got rid of most of their. CGI budget in the last two episodes. Wights are dead. Ghost is sent off to Narnia. Two dragons gone. All assets that cost a ton of money to put on screen.

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Does Cersei still have wild fire?

[Jastall]

Well the path would have to be different because Martin has a lot more characters rolling around doing important stuff then the show does. He has a couple of important artifacts (Including one that can apparently hijack dragons), a completely different type of undead character and a lot more other things going on.

Speaking of the other type of undead character, what was going on with the show's Uncle Benjin? The show explained absolutely nothing about him, they just used him as a deus ex machina in the back pocket of every Stark north of the wall. Was he supposed to still be alive? Why didn't he go back to the wall if so? In the books he is clearly either dead or permanently changed into something not quite human.

Well Coldhands (the equivalent character) in the books is not implied to be Benjen, it's a popular theory but the Children of the Forest state that he's fairly old which rules an undead Benjen out most likely. As to what their exact deal is, nobody knows really. The best we can surmise is that, since the Children created the Walkers, they could know of various other rituals that raise the dead themselves and used that to create a protector for them and the Three-Eyed King. But that's just speculation, and in the books we don't know yet who created the Others.

Still, the salient point is right, the books have far more character. Too many if you ask me even. I find characters such as Victarion, (fake) Aegon or half the Slaver's Bay cast to be completely superfluous, and one of the things I actually prefer in the show is the more focused narrative around a more limited cast. Martin is a good writer, but he's hardly perfect, and IMO his greatest sin was creating far too many plotlines and characters in books 4 and 5, so much so that actually tying the mess up is close to impossible for him.

Now the show still goes and manages to mess up what characters it does have, so I guess we should be thankful they haven't added more.

[crakerjack]

Agreed, but I really wish they had attempted to do something interesting with him. They completely created him for the show, and then didn't bother developing him at all. He was basically a cardboard cutout. In the books the White Walkers are an ancient and mysterious race with very alien and unknown motives. They serve as a constant and looming menace that threatens the entire world with ultimate destruction if humans don't get their act together. The show sort of tries this, but they staple the whole concept to a single flat character that dies to a knife. The function of the Night King is basically a kill switch on the entire zombie threat. The book White Walkers have no such weakness, and a lot more mystery behind them.

Yeppers, I'm more than sure the final book will wrap things up much better than D&D did. Their issue is that they should of had a few more season to give formal closure to some of these stories, rather than fit them all into the last season. I just hope GRRM doesn't die/get complacent before he finishes his book.

[Th3Scourge]

One of the better episodes of the Season 5-8 clusterfuck. I liked the dialogue scenes which is ultimately what made GoT good. Mad Queen Dany was never going to be much of a suprise, but it's a real big rush job.

Can someone please explain why she would not just fly Drogon to the rear of the Greyjoy fleet and burn them from behind? ><

[Isilrien]

Guys I just got on board with GoT a few weeks ago, if you could remain excited and enthusiastic about the show I'd appreciate it a lot.

I'm not sure people will honor your request. If you can, try to disregard the negative comments? Another option is to try and find another site that has more members that are enjoying the show, or to try and start a discussion here about what you found interesting or enjoyable specifically in the episodes. Like, the interaction between Sansa and Tyrion has been good in my opinion.

[Easo]

Looks like the question as to how a dragon can deal with all those ballistas/scorpions and not get show down like his brother can be seen in the preview.
Our dear Drogon, it seems, has learned from how the pilots did it in World Wars - attack from the direction of sun, so that the light blinds the enemy.

Season 8 isn't really Game of Thrones.

Please, that is not how it works. This is Game of Thrones. Sure, might feel crappy to you and others (and to be fair, they could have done better, no matter which viewpoint one takes), but it is GoT.

[Logwyn]

I think they are rushing it with respect to run time. A full 10 episode season would have allowed time for war preparations and political plotting and backstory reveals. I would probably not have increased the budget significantly because I am assuming most of the cost is from the full episode battles. Scenes of characters at strategy tables and Bran in front of a tree don't cost very much.

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They needed more backstory for the Night King to make him more than just "I'm evil. I kill all people." Otherwise he is just a plot device, which apparently is all he was. And after all these seasons, we still don't know why it matters who sits on the Iron Throne or if there really needs to be a ruler of all seven kingdoms. What is the plan for the eventual ruler after they gain the throne? How will life be better if Dany or Jon rules instead of Cersei?

I think they set up a council or republic type government. But I'm weird that way