[TV/Books] Game of Thrones ***SPOILER Discussion***

[Kolvarg]

Which emphasizes the fact that the story of ASOIAF is no longer in the hands of GRRM. D&D&co decided how the saga ends. If GRRM somehow finishes the books some day and the story is different it would be the same if George Lucas released his Star Wars episode 7, 8 and 9 some day - too late, Disney already did that.

EDIT: If GRRM's story would be the same as the TV show story, then the situation would be different. Then his books would be just expanded and more thorough representations of the same story. However, we know that isn't true as the TV show and the book saga have already diverged in a massive way.

I don't think it's fair to compare it to Star Wars. Star Wars were already movies in the first place, which is not the case here.

The show ultimately is not ASOIAF. It's Game of Thrones, a tv-series based on ASOIAF, even if it ended up getting ahead of it chronologically. If GRRM had sold the complete IP rights and D&D had written the last 2 books (which I believe would be the actual direct comparison to Star Wars), that would be an entirely different case.

Obviously I don't know the exact legal details of what rights exactly GRRM sold to them, but I think it's not hard to imagine that the majority of people would agree that either the books will be canon, or at least that the books and the show are two very different things, and each has their own canon.

[Axxy]

The scene with the boat ambush has to be one of the biggest mistakes in any show in the last decade. How bad is that writing? Rocking boat, moving dragons, 3-4 consecutive direct hits from boats that also should've been visible to somebody who was flying that high.

It was almost as shocking as some of the retarded scenes from the WF battle last episode. Looking at the fleet, why didn't Dany just fly behind their boats and and nuke them from behind. Same at KL, all the weapons were pointing in one direction, straight forward, nice straight wall, come in from the side and take the lot out in 10 seconds flat. Maybe the writers could have a Starbucks latte so they're awake when writing the scripts, because all the main characters are as thick as shit when it comes to planning battles. Last 2 episodes are epic fail so far for me and it's almost becoming a parody of itself.

[Puupi]

If it wasn't clear from the beginning: Dany is crazy. The only reason she didn't go full on Mad Queen before is that she had people she trusted as advisors. Now that her closest friends and advisors are all dead, she will show her true nature.

2madqueens1ironthrone

[Mehrunes]

My guess is that the Night King as he is in the show(the first white walker) doesn't exist in the books at all. There have been several different Night Kings in the books.

Yeah, but I'm not talking about the books. The White Walkers attacked before in the show as well. First Men fought against them for example. And the show has legends about the Long Night as well.

[samjonas]

I love this thread guys... so exciting

[Mehrunes]

The wall didn't exist at the time of the First Men. It is entirely possible the First Men beat the actual armies of the dead and drove the white walkers to the north.

But how could they possibly achieve that without killing the Night King? He can just resurrect the dead by lifting his hands up, giving the First Men no reprieve in fight against him personally as long as he was alive. Even if they were killing the wights with obsidian rendering them useless, he'd still have the corpses of the fallen First Men themselves. Corpses that they wouldn't have the time to burn while being locked in combat against the Night King.

Even if the First Men sent a massive army north of where the Wall would be to stall the Night King while the Wall was getting constructed (and even then it would only work if someone pulled the Wall out of their ass in an instant), those people would be doomed. And the Night King would just simply get a fresh army. So even if the Wall was pulled out of someone's ass in an instant, what would have stopped the Night King from ordering his fresh army made from the corpses of the sacrificial army that was to stall him to swarm the Wall World War-Z style, as his wights were doing in the battle for Winterfell?

[Puupi]

But how could they possibly achieve that without killing the Night King?

Maybe the Lord of Light did some God Magic which made the Night King powerless or something for a long time.

[Mehrunes]

Maybe the Lord of Light did some God Magic which made the Night King powerless or something for a long time.

"Maybe deus ex machina happened" doesn't really salvage the plot in light of concerns. And if R'hllor could do so, why didn't he render the Night King powerless at Hardhome so he couldn't raise the dead to replenish his forces there and become open to a sudden case of stabbing from Jon's sword?

I'm sure you have some suggestion then, as it has canonically happened in the books. Maybe the Night King went emo for couple of thousands of years and just was just chilling on the north pole while the humans built the wall. Or maybe we was taking his armies over the pole to attack Yi Ti. They have legends and northern walls in their history as well. Westeros isn't the only place the white walkers have tried to conquer.

The books don't have the same issue because a Night King isn't remotely the same character and the Others existed for ages by the time of the Night King appearing (and even after he appeared nothing indicates he became a leader of the Others). Nor was there anything suggesting that the Others are a hive mind that collapses when their overmind dies.

[Puupi]

"Maybe deus ex machina happened" doesn't really salvage the plot in light of concerns. And if R'hllor could do so, why didn't he render the Night King powerless at Hardhome so he couldn't raise the dead to replenish his forces there and be open to a sudden case of stabbing from Jon's sword?

Maybe the Shadow God did something.

You know, arguing and speculating stuff like this is entirely pointless as we are talking about a fantasy story and specifically the supernatural elements of it.

The reasons for things happening can literally be anything. Trying to rationalize it is moot; this is about supernatural Gods in a fantasy world.

[Aenigma84]

Yeah and when it comes to 'canon' it is "first come, first served". If GRRM decides to write the story in his books wildly different than what the TV show has delivered, then his writing is just revisionist fan fiction.

Canon is what the creator/owner of the rights desides it is not first come first serve
if GRRM says tomorrow that the show is non canon then its officially non canon


canon changes all the time just look at star wars since disney took over

[Puupi]

Canon is what the creator/owner of the rights desides it is not first come first serve
if GRRM says tomorrow that the show is non canon then its officially non canon


canon changes all the time just look at star wars since disney took over

GRRM doesn't own the rights alone anymore.

[crusadernero]

Maybe the Night King didn't come south of the wall at all, and the invading force was only wights.

yeah.. maybe he has a twin?

[Aenigma84]

yeah.. maybe he has a twin?

Perhaps the NK died before and takes thousends of years to reform each time
slowly reforming in his HQ somewhere north where nobody ever comes

[Varodoc]

Speaking of which, we've never seen the Night King's base of operations. Is it just a frozen wasteland or is there actually some secret cave or castle hidden somewhere in the Land of Always Winter?

[Puupi]

Speaking of which, we've never seen the Night King's base of operations. Is it just a frozen wasteland or is there actually some secret cave or castle hidden somewhere in the Land of Always Winter?

Probably an old wildling outhouse he went to sit for a moment, but his butt froze to the seat leading him to be stuck there for a thousand years.

[uopayroll]

Speaking of which, we've never seen the Night King's base of operations. Is it just a frozen wasteland or is there actually some secret cave or castle hidden somewhere in the Land of Always Winter?

Not sure if it is his base, but the stones they brought Crastor's babies and the frozen tree (looks to be the one he was first created at)with the swirl symbol way north might be ground zero?

[Puupi]

Maybe a spire with Icy Throne on the top.

How about a Citadel​?

[crono14]

But how could they possibly achieve that without killing the Night King? He can just resurrect the dead by lifting his hands up, giving the First Men no reprieve in fight against him personally as long as he was alive. Even if they were killing the wights with obsidian rendering them useless, he'd still have the corpses of the fallen First Men themselves. Corpses that they wouldn't have the time to burn while being locked in combat against the Night King.

Even if the First Men sent a massive army north of where the Wall would be to stall the Night King while the Wall was getting constructed (and even then it would only work if someone pulled the Wall out of their ass in an instant), those people would be doomed. And the Night King would just simply get a fresh army. So even if the Wall was pulled out of someone's ass in an instant, what would have stopped the Night King from ordering his fresh army made from the corpses of the sacrificial army that was to stall him to swarm the Wall World War-Z style, as his wights were doing in the battle for Winterfell?

There is nothing to say that the Night King we see in the show was the only Night King to have ever existed either. Since we are going to be probably getting a show delving into the backstory of all that some more questions might be answered. In the books the Night King isn't even a character yet. The show revealed nothing about him at all, so it's hard to speculate on anything really. We can assume the show Night King was the one the CoTF created in that flashback scene we see, but beyond that we really know nothing.

[Varodoc]

Why did the Night King have a beard in the cave under Dragonstone? Could it be that there are multiple Night Kings?

[Puupi]

Why did the Night King have a beard in the cave under Dragonstone? Could it be that there are multiple Night Kings?

Or maybe beards are out of fashion and he has shaved?

Who knows?

*shrug*