1. #24521
    Also during the original Long Night reached as far as Yi-Ti, where the locals fought against a so-called "Lion of Night". It seems like that are multiple independent Night Kings in the world, so maybe Arya killed only one Night King and his army.
    Last edited by Varodoc; 2019-05-08 at 01:57 PM.
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  2. #24522
    The Unstoppable Force Puupi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Void Fallen View Post
    Also during the original Long Night reached as far as Yi-Ti, were the locals fought against a so-called "Lion of Night". It seems like that are multiple independent Night Kings in the world, so maybe Arya killed only one Night King and his army.
    Yeah I suppose it's possible that she killed a Night King instead of the Night King.
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  3. #24523
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    Quote Originally Posted by La View Post
    So you're saying that an author known for writing things and then completely going back and changing them, due to the amount of details he puts into the entire world, would not give his basic outline for how he MIGHT end it, despite the fact he may change it? Despite the fact that D&D can also change it. And you're saying that because he doesn't own the rights to it like those, the author who penned ASOIAF would be writing a fan-fiction to his own work? Despite the fact that the majority of people only consider what is canon what is written by the original author in a book and not as it is translated by others? Sure. If he specifically says so, but if he doesn't, then no.
    Quote Originally Posted by Puupi View Post
    If you need to use time travel as an example you should know your whole argument isn't on quite a solid ground.

    Being first definitely means something is "original". You can then argue whether it is better, worse, right or wrong.

    Also, as GRRM has given an outline for the show producers about the storyline - if he eventually deviates from that storyline in his books, he is revisioning his own original story and the TV show's original story as well.
    While this is pieced together by someone from several different interviews, Martin indicates here that he does not intend to change his story's ending: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VyanTVqlJ2o

    He may have also commented in an interview what sort of creative license he gave HBO (or if HBO gave an interview that details their freedom), but if he or they didn't, then HBO's assumed freedom is speculation.

  4. #24524
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    Quote Originally Posted by Byuiso View Post
    He did get outplayed. Bran called out exactly what he would do and he did it. Bran gave the weapon that killed the Night King to Arya. During their stare down Bran broke eye contact with the Night King, looked at his chest and back at him...coincidentally the Night King was stabbed in the chest where Bran was looking by Arya who was given the weapon to kill the Night King by Bran.

    And the Night King story isn't over because of the prequel. He will be a centerpiece of that since it takes place in the Age of Heros and the real Long Night. Unless GRRM has a lot of writing influence on that prequel I see it suffering the same way Game of Thrones is now due to writing.
    Agreed on both points.

    Bad writing aside (because yes there has been) - Bran did exactly what he needed to do. Baited the NK to distraction - so that Ayra could get'em - with yes, the knife/dagger that Bran gave to Ayra. Personally, whether its the directors or GRRM's setup for Bran - I LIKE the fact that the writers make Bran's influence - much like "Fates" or "Destiny's" influence in many works - often about more subtle influences that shift outcomes.

    Bran is no longer human. He's no longer a Stark. Other than "keep the human race going" he has no real motive or stake in anything else - functioning as the "living history" of mankind. He's never been about sweeping magical-awesome that sends hundreds of animals attacking anything. He's (esp. since he got turned into a demi-being) always very methodical, very planned, steps - that shift things going the right direction. I LIKE that subtle influence of "fate" on the outcome. The idea that barely any of the characters understand, or have any idea, who/what Bran is or how important his influence is/has been -- and the fact that the audience has apparently bought into that (even though they've seen otherwise) I find amusing.

    And I also agree - the Night King's story isnt' over because of the 3 spinoff shows - and yes because of the "Long Night" series they are doing. He's not coming back in the next two episodes (or they just really jump the shark). And I pretty much expect that without GRRM's direction to go on - its going to be "even darker/more depressing medieval life - but now with ice zombies!" and that's about all it will be.


    ~~

    Also apparently my memory is better than others (because last couple of weeks I've been watching a lot of mid-series reruns lol), or I"m just misremembering - but I could have *sworn* that when Danny promised to go North to help fight against the NK/Wrights she specifically SAID they were leaving dothraki and unsullied behind at DragonRock? (this would have been last season obviously)

    I know when I saw the Dothraki "charge" into the NK armies - there weren't near as many numbers as supposedly came over with her originally (?) and had this clear memory of that strategy talk around the Big Table at DragonRock. She wasn't taking them all.

    So neither the smaller number at the NK fight nor the statement of having forces left afterwards - surprised me at all.

    Am I really the only one that remembers that? Or am I just delusional and all the dragonrock talks ran together already? =D
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  5. #24525
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gabriel View Post
    If it wasn't clear from the beginning: Dany is crazy. The only reason she didn't go full on Mad Queen before is that she had people she trusted as advisors. Now that her closest friends and advisors are all dead, she will show her true nature.
    That really isn't how she was written prior to this season though, I kind of like her character arc. She was about the only genuinely flawed heroic character in the show. While Ned/Rob/Jon are shown as basically purely noble, and their failings are just caused by being too good for this cruel world, Dany has legit character flaws.

    She is smart, powerful, and impulsive, but she is still her father's daughter and she knows it. She chose her advisors specifically to reign in her worst impulses, because she is aware of her flaws. Missandre especially was clearly chosen for that role, Dany clearly didn't need her as an interpreter. But we have seen her repeatedly be willing to talked back from the edge when she was super pissed off, because she was legitimately dedicated to doing the right thing and not turned into her father or brother.

    I disagree that full mad queen is her "True Nature", but it is a part of it her nature. She knows it and tries to combat it though. I hope she doesn't totally lose control and go full villain, because I think it makes it a better arc as a heroic one rather then a fall to darkness path.

    “What is better? To be born good or to overcome your evil nature through great effort ?” -Paarthurnax
    Last edited by Thekri; 2019-05-08 at 04:13 PM.

  6. #24526
    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    Unless she was one of those people I don't get what argument are you making here. Also, no one was really claiming that to justify the shit writing.
    I was saying (that night) that LF's plan was shit writing, he should have foreseen this coming, and the potential "trauma will make you stronger" plotline which was inevitable from that point, was also shit writing - as if Sansa couldn't have become strong without being raped.....


    1) ...which is exactly Chastain's point. There's a serious lack of reading comprehension on these forums, sometimes. She's saying rape doesn't necessarily make one stronger, and Sansa didn't need to be always a little bird without being raped/manipulated by LF. She's separating the empowerment of the woman, from the act, which is never empowering. Your response can be empowering, sure, but the action is neither b) necessary, or b) related to the empowerment. Hell, it isn't even the outcome in most cases. IE, Sansa could have left with the Hound, and become a powerful character regardless, because her naivete was justifiably dispelled by Joff. So the line that she "needed" LF and Ramsay to "not be a little bird" is a shit line that betrays the character. To Rory's credit as an actor, he just looks kinda incredulous at that line, though I'm fairly sure D&D didn't give him any direction to act that way.

    2) Sansa isn't even more powerful or a good player of the game now. She's just as paranoid and distrustful as Dany, but with less power. And, she wears those emotions on her face for her supposed rival to see, which feeds into Dany's paranoia. She's lost her sense of morals, betraying Jon's trust, and is constantly and needlessly trying to undermine her perceived rival. And let's not pretend this isn't self-serving. She knows Jon will be Warden in the North if the status quo just stays the same - but that would leave her with nothing. If she had truly learned to be a player in the game, if her trauma had made her a confident badass, she'd smile at Dany all the time and promise her everything while stabbing her in the back. She's instead D&D's version of a powerful woman - paranoid and self-serving.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Puupi View Post
    GRRM doesn't own the rights alone anymore.
    Yes, yes he does. If he didn't, he wouldn't be allowed to write the last two books. The TV show is specifically an "adaptation" which has been authorized by GRRM. Just like all their spinoffs have to be authorized by GRRM, who......still holds the rights.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Thekri View Post
    That really isn't how she was written prior to this season though, I kind of like her character arc. She was about the only genuinely flawed heroic character in the show. While Ned/Rob/Jon are shown as basically purely noble, and their failings are just caused by being too good for this cruel world, Dany has legit character flaws.
    She's been showing signs of crazy since she arrived in Slaver's Bay. You can reasonably make the argument she's been slightly mad since Drogo's death. This is literally the only plotline that made sense in last week's episode.

  7. #24527
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    Quote Originally Posted by eschatological View Post
    I was saying (that night) that LF's plan was shit writing, he should have foreseen this coming, and the potential "trauma will make you stronger" plotline which was inevitable from that point, was also shit writing - as if Sansa couldn't have become strong without being raped.....


    1) ...which is exactly Chastain's point. There's a serious lack of reading comprehension on these forums, sometimes. She's saying rape doesn't necessarily make one stronger, and Sansa didn't need to be always a little bird without being raped/manipulated by LF. She's separating the empowerment of the woman, from the act, which is never empowering. Your response can be empowering, sure, but the action is neither b) necessary, or b) related to the empowerment. Hell, it isn't even the outcome in most cases. IE, Sansa could have left with the Hound, and become a powerful character regardless, because her naivete was justifiably dispelled by Joff. So the line that she "needed" LF and Ramsay to "not be a little bird" is a shit line that betrays the character. To Rory's credit as an actor, he just looks kinda incredulous at that line, though I'm fairly sure D&D didn't give him any direction to act that way.

    2) Sansa isn't even more powerful or a good player of the game now. She's just as paranoid and distrustful as Dany, but with less power. And, she wears those emotions on her face for her supposed rival to see, which feeds into Dany's paranoia. She's lost her sense of morals, betraying Jon's trust, and is constantly and needlessly trying to undermine her perceived rival. And let's not pretend this isn't self-serving. She knows Jon will be Warden in the North if the status quo just stays the same - but that would leave her with nothing. If she had truly learned to be a player in the game, if her trauma had made her a confident badass, she'd smile at Dany all the time and promise her everything while stabbing her in the back. She's instead D&D's version of a powerful woman - paranoid and self-serving.
    Agreed, I am a long way from a SJW, but GoT seems to have no idea how to write female characters without playing to the absolutely worst stereotypes, especially in season 8. They used to be much better at this, characters like Margery were pretty convincing female characters. Yeah she was manipulative, but she wasn't really an evil conniving bitch about it. She was just using the tools that were at her disposal to achieve her agenda, and it wasn't really a destructive effort.

    The remaining ones have all been done dirty by ham-fisted stereotypes in the last few episodes.

    Cersei: Always an evil schemer, but now she doesn't even have an agenda any more, just a pure force of evil that is not really different then the night king. She has no complexity left.
    Dany: Always emotional, but it a plausible and character driven way. Now she is just spiraling into paranoia and emotional outbursts. Which demonstrates why women are clearly not fit to rule, and we need a nice reliable man to take charge now.
    Sansa: You can either be naïve and good, or you can be a clever backstabbing monster. Apparently there is no middle ground here. Sansa now has chronic backstabbing disorder, and of course she explicitly acknowledges that she allowed everything that happened to her to completely define her. I personally think that line about rape is pretty in line with her character now, but that isn't a good thing. She thinks she has to be as bad as her enemies to win.
    Brienne: Holy shit. Really? They reduced her to a lovesick girl crying in her nightgown as Jamie rides away? What is the message here? That she was just an ugly girl overcompensating, and all she ever really needed was a good man to settle down with? 6 seasons of character development disappeared in one drinking session.
    Arya: If you are a woman, you can't balance your talents and personality with a fulfilling relationship. You are either a wife and mother or you are a soulless monster. This is the exact template that has been applied to every female character that is still alive over the last two seasons.

    This isn't about some sort of social justice, this is just about crappy writing that comes from an unabashedly male viewpoint. I don't think they are actually trying to make a statement, I think they just have no idea what to do with a female character. I guess in their defense, their male characters aren't really handled any better this season, all of them have been reduced to flat stereotypes.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by eschatological View Post
    She's been showing signs of crazy since she arrived in Slaver's Bay. You can reasonably make the argument she's been slightly mad since Drogo's death. This is literally the only plotline that made sense in last week's episode.
    That is my point though. She has always been this way, but she has been slowly losing control of it. I don't really have any issue with how it is progressing, I was just hoping that she turns it around instead of coasting all the way to the bottom. Because I would much prefer she turns it around and becomes the good ruler she clearly also has the capability to be. The coin could land on either edge, but I would prefer it winds up on the good side because Jon is just a boring character.

  8. #24528
    They literally had to have Cersei get pregnant again to justify her trope-y "motherly madness" where she does all the evil shit she does to "protect her children" like Tyrion said this past week.

  9. #24529
    The Unstoppable Force Puupi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eschatological View Post
    They literally had to have Cersei get pregnant again to justify her trope-y "motherly madness" where she does all the evil shit she does to "protect her children" like Tyrion said this past week.
    Makes more sense than to do evil shit just for giggles.
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  10. #24530
    Quote Originally Posted by Raelyn View Post
    DUDE no fricking spoilers for other shows please!!! Here in the UK we haven't had this episode yet.

    Fuck's sake. Mind what you are writing please.

    Its VeeP, lol. Not even a major plot point, no fucks given. Report the comment if you want.
    READ and be less Ignorant.

  11. #24531
    Quote Originally Posted by Thekri View Post
    Agreed, I am a long way from a SJW, but GoT seems to have no idea how to write female characters without playing to the absolutely worst stereotypes, especially in season 8. They used to be much better at this, characters like Margery were pretty convincing female characters. Yeah she was manipulative, but she wasn't really an evil conniving bitch about it. She was just using the tools that were at her disposal to achieve her agenda, and it wasn't really a destructive effort.

    The remaining ones have all been done dirty by ham-fisted stereotypes in the last few episodes.

    Cersei: Always an evil schemer, but now she doesn't even have an agenda any more, just a pure force of evil that is not really different then the night king. She has no complexity left.
    Dany: Always emotional, but it a plausible and character driven way. Now she is just spiraling into paranoia and emotional outbursts. Which demonstrates why women are clearly not fit to rule, and we need a nice reliable man to take charge now.
    Sansa: You can either be naïve and good, or you can be a clever backstabbing monster. Apparently there is no middle ground here. Sansa now has chronic backstabbing disorder, and of course she explicitly acknowledges that she allowed everything that happened to her to completely define her. I personally think that line about rape is pretty in line with her character now, but that isn't a good thing. She thinks she has to be as bad as her enemies to win.
    Brienne: Holy shit. Really? They reduced her to a lovesick girl crying in her nightgown as Jamie rides away? What is the message here? That she was just an ugly girl overcompensating, and all she ever really needed was a good man to settle down with? 6 seasons of character development disappeared in one drinking session.
    Arya: If you are a woman, you can't balance your talents and personality with a fulfilling relationship. You are either a wife and mother or you are a soulless monster. This is the exact template that has been applied to every female character that is still alive over the last two seasons.

    This isn't about some sort of social justice, this is just about crappy writing that comes from an unabashedly male viewpoint. I don't think they are actually trying to make a statement, I think they just have no idea what to do with a female character. I guess in their defense, their male characters aren't really handled any better this season, all of them have been reduced to flat stereotypes.

    - - - Updated - - -


    That is my point though. She has always been this way, but she has been slowly losing control of it. I don't really have any issue with how it is progressing, I was just hoping that she turns it around instead of coasting all the way to the bottom. Because I would much prefer she turns it around and becomes the good ruler she clearly also has the capability to be. The coin could land on either edge, but I would prefer it winds up on the good side because Jon is just a boring character.
    This is as pro SJW as GoT can get. You have many powerful women that can do more than many other men. But it cannot go out of common sense. You cannot be agressive, competitive and a good mother at the same time. They are polar opposite states.

  12. #24532
    Quote Originally Posted by Puupi View Post
    Makes more sense than to do evil shit just for giggles.
    Why does it have to be one or the other? Cercei was never a great person for sure, but for two seasons literally all she has done is stare smugly at stuff while ordering lolevil actions to be performed. Her character is as flat as the Night King now.

  13. #24533
    Quote Originally Posted by Jastall View Post
    Why does it have to be one or the other? Cercei was never a great person for sure, but for two seasons literally all she has done is stare smugly at stuff while ordering lolevil actions to be performed. Her character is as flat as the Night King now.

    sHe iS sO NuancEd.
    READ and be less Ignorant.

  14. #24534
    Legendary! Thekri's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cannibalus View Post
    This is as pro SJW as GoT can get. You have many powerful women that can do more than many other men. But it cannot go out of common sense. You cannot be agressive, competitive and a good mother at the same time. They are polar opposite states.
    Weird, because history is absolutely loaded with women that did exactly that. Most of them did it more like Margery, they were never the historical headliner, but they were the power behind the throne. Look at Jackie Kennedy for a perfect example.

  15. #24535
    just a pure force of evil that is not really different then the night king. She has no complexity left.
    The Night King was not evil.

    D.B. Weiss: "I don’t think of the Night King as a villain," he said. "He is not like Joffrey, or Ramses [sic] … To me, evil comes when you have a choice between that and good, and you choose the wrong way. The Night King doesn’t have a choice; he was created that way."

    David Benioff: "I don’t think of him as evil, I think of him as Death,” Benioff told EW. “And that’s what he wants — for all of us. It’s why he was created and that’s what he’s after.”
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  16. #24536
    I wonder if anything is ever going to come of Dany possibly getting pregnant. Seems like that’s another thing that’s going to be forgotten for the sake of subverted expectations.

  17. #24537
    Quote Originally Posted by Cannibalus View Post
    This is as pro SJW as GoT can get. You have many powerful women that can do more than many other men. But it cannot go out of common sense. You cannot be agressive, competitive and a good mother at the same time. They are polar opposite states.
    This is an absurd statement. Not only CAN you be all those things at once, but I would argue that's not what this show is depicting. The women on this show HAVE power (mostly given to them by birth), but they wield it like petty schoolgirls, by being catty, manipulative, and, well, crazy.

    Let's be fair, though, GRRM doesn't really write women all that much better himself.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by ohiostate124 View Post
    I wonder if anything is ever going to come of Dany possibly getting pregnant. Seems like that’s another thing that’s going to be forgotten for the sake of subverted expectations.
    Dany getting pregnant in the show seems like it'll be forgotten since D&D have dropped any pretence in terms of "fulfilling prophecy." Plus, the prophecies concerning Dany getting pregnant again are flat in the show. They're meant to sound like it'll never happen again, just like in the books. The difference is, in the books you get small plotlines in the book which seem to be fulfilling her prophecy, like "the sun setting in the East," when Quentyn Martell (The Sun being the sign of Dorne) dies in Essos.

    Edit: A great list of the prophecies/dreams from the book, put on a super shitty webpage background that looks like a 12 year old designed it: https://www.westeros.org/Citadel/Prophecies/
    Last edited by eschatological; 2019-05-08 at 05:37 PM.

  18. #24538
    The Lightbringer Minikin's Avatar
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    I'm a bit lost on
    - Bronn! Go kill my brother's with that crossbow!! They are in winterfell! Don't fail me!!
    - Tyrion shows up 15feet from her, every archer she owns pointing at him and she lets him go?
    -also perhaps instead of yelling a Valyrian one liner maybe missande could have torpedo slammed cerci from the tower. Cerci doesn't die but is comatose placing euron in charge? Battle crazy pirate euron, not wierd Playboy euron.
    Last edited by Minikin; 2019-05-08 at 05:36 PM.
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  19. #24539
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    Quote Originally Posted by Packness View Post
    The NK is not the same thing in the books as in the show. There is not a white walker 'king' in the books, white walkers wildly differs from the book counterpart 'the others'. I dont think they will be as huge in the last books as on the show, so I dont understand people, who call themself book fans, are disappointed in the shows dealing of the NK.
    Meh I disagree- I'm actually expecting GRRM (if he finishes...lol) to make the White Walker battle the final battle - after the 7 Kingdoms fight; because it is the "fight for the actual world" (of men).

    "Winter is Coming" isn't just from the show. While there is no "King" persay, the WW are not any "minor" thing either. "Winter is Coming" has been from the first book. There is a bigger fight coming from beyond the Wall that doesn't care about who rules the 7 kingdoms.

    It just hasn't played a major part because nothing's arrived yet. The books haven't gotten (or just about) that far to even start the skirmishing. Danny hasn't landed in the 7 Kingdoms (yet).

    So the threat they may or may not be hasn't really been setup in the books - other than yes, guess what, WW are coming and the mortals are still thinking their fight is the fight that matters.

    I've always thought - both in the books and the show - the bigger battle is the battle most of the world has no idea is coming (yet in the books). Yes, mortals play at the Game of Thrones - but ultimately it doesn't matter who sits on the throne once "Winter" (Long Night II) gets here. (for the books)

    So while I may be disappointed in how the writers didn't do their OWN NK justice - that isn't to say WW aren't the (actual) major threat in the books. The books just haven't engaged that yet in near the way the show has.

    I'd be very disappointed if GRRM does the same thing the show does - and makes the King's Landing fight the climax battle and not the WW battle. Because at the end of all of the story and lore - the "bigger threat" is the one ending mankind. Not the one just putting a new one on the throne.

    *shrugs*

    Being a fan of the books doesn't mean you don't also want the writers (Of the show) to write their own creations (separate from the book or not) well - or give them the "teeth" they've (the writers) been building you up to expect.
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  20. #24540
    ^ You do realise this is the Game of Thrones and the NK have and will always be just a side character to spin up the main story a bit? It's been shown as that for a long time. The Game of Thrones is the true story.

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