[TV/Books] Game of Thrones ***SPOILER Discussion***

[Zaktar]

But that is an irrational "snap" into madness. Whcih, as I said earlier, is a narrative choice, but a weak one in this case. It is 1) unjustified by her previous sympathies with these very kind of folk, and 2) makes her a cartoonish villain with no nuance, no justification, no remorse for when someone, likely Jon, inevitably has to kill her and remove her from power.

There was no snap, that is who she was, and you don't have to be cartoonishly evil to butcher innocent people. Real people do and have done that, and they didn't lack nuance, they were human beings. Evil, and damned if you believe in damnation, but not cartoonish.

Like any person she had good impulses and bad, and the people who fed her best impulses disappeared or grew small in her eyes, and in a moment high on destructive power she used it to do something she had clearly rationalized. Once she burned the first innocent person there was no point in stopping. Did you think previously when she talked about burning cities, she was just imagining doing it to real estate, or calmly marching all the innocents out first, or that it was an empty threat? If you rewatch the scene early in the episode where Tyrion is imploring her not to burn the city, she lays out her rationale and it's in character.

[Jayma]

Do i think Daenarys skips a few steps in character development? Yes.

But what really annoyed me:

Scorpions. I was literally shaking my head for 5 minutes when all of the scorpions just go puff. Really? I know Dany destroys everything this episode, but also logic?

What annoys me way more: Pushing Jon as the "better" king.

Isn't one of the messages of the whole story that honorable man are bad rulers? Now all of a sudden, this is what we want.

If this is now the new message "honorable man are the perfect rulers" - we could have ended the whole series in episode 7 with Ned arresting Cersei and a happy ending.

It's a bit strange how naive everyone is about Jon being a good king. He might be ok with the right council, but he himself lacks many qualities of a good ruler.

[Very Tired]

I didn't really catch how Varys betrayed Danny. I saw him writing something at the start of the episode but couldn't really read it. Was he trying to kill her or something?

[Zaktar]

I didn't really catch how Varys betrayed Danny. I saw him writing something at the start of the episode but couldn't really read it. Was he trying to kill her or something?

Spreading the word about Jon's claim to the throne, supporting him rather than her.

[Pannonian]

It's a bit strange how naive everyone is about Jon being a good king. He might be ok with the right council, but he himself lacks many qualities of a good ruler.

I'm actually ok with the people in the series itself believing that. It's a trope, we do too. Just look at our own stories, where a happy ending is the rightful and honorable king coming back and everything is fine (e.g Sean Connery as the english king (with thick scottish accent) at the end of every Robing Hood movie). Song and Ice of Fire plays with these tropes all the time, and shows us the reality.

That's what i always liked about the story. It takes our own preconceptions of how a story should go, and instead shows us how the real world works.

I'm fine with people on the ground believing a good king is honorable, but the shows explicitly tells us again and again that these honorable types will all be victims of more ambitious people.

Well, let's see what they have in store for us for the last episode.

To add to that: Another trope that comes up more and more is the idea that the right ruler is someone who doesn't want to be ruler. While there are a few examples in the real world, there are way more examples of rulers who didn't want to rule being actually awful. Who would have guessed.

[xcess]

And when have they ever flared?

Well people didnt think Dany was capable of burning innocents and children

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I didn't really catch how Varys betrayed Danny. I saw him writing something at the start of the episode but couldn't really read it. Was he trying to kill her or something?

He tried to poison her food

[Asaliah]

The only good moment was the dialogue between Tyrion and Jaime

[Pannonian]

The only good moment was the dialogue between Tyrion and Jaime

"Sandor, thank you" was also quite nice. Felt like a real payoff after 8 years.

[Jayma]

There was no snap, that is who she was, and you don't have to be cartoonishly evil to butcher innocent people. Real people do and have done that, and they didn't lack nuance, they were human beings. Evil, and damned if you believe in damnation, but not cartoonish.

Like any person she had good impulses and bad, and the people who fed her best impulses disappeared or grew small in her eyes, and in a moment high on destructive power she used it to do something she had clearly rationalized. Once she burned the first innocent person there was no point in stopping. Did you think previously when she talked about burning cities, she was just imagining doing it to real estate, or calmly marching all the innocents out first, or that it was an empty threat? If you rewatch the scene early in the episode where Tyrion is imploring her not to burn the city, she lays out her rationale and it's in character.

It's absolutely not in character to kill thousands of innocent people for a battle she's already won. Most of the king's landing talks centered around the Red Keep which seemed the least of her priorities this episode. The bells were clearly used in some dumb way to depict her breaking point.

[Doctor Funkenstein]

Its not just D&D though. Lots of people go into making that show. There are and were budgeting concerns as well.

It is 100% them. They're the head writers, and they chose to forgo more episodes and more money because, obviously, they're tired of the show. The acting is and was superb. The sets are and were superb. The production values are and were superb. The network is and was willing to put more into it. The WRITING is what sucks absolute balls, and the executive decisions -- which were theirs to make -- were abysmal. It is ENTIRELY on them; no excuses to be found.

P.S. I guess winter is just done now? It was snowing in KL when Jaime left, I guess......what, we're back to regular seasons now? I guess it would be too much to hope for some lore about the elongated seasons in the show.

Good luck with that. It's always been random intervals; some summers are long, some aren't. Same for winters (I seem to recall that was the first winter Bran ever experienced, and he was well into his teens before this winter even started). It's pretty nonsensical, as is the opening map they use suggesting the world is inside a sphere or bowl. The only hope of ever getting an answer to any of this will be in the books; the show couldn't even give Euron a hint of magical items, arguably THE major aspect of the character, and you expect them to delve into deeper mysteries of the world?

Is Targaryan madness a long slow burn thing?

Honestly all indications are that it was supposed to have been Bran that drove the Mad King mad, in the same vein of Hodor. That was literally the only point of showing he could warg into Hodor in the past, FFS.

[eschatological]

There was no snap, that is who she was, and you don't have to be cartoonishly evil to butcher innocent people. Real people do and have done that, and they didn't lack nuance, they were human beings. Evil, and damned if you believe in damnation, but not cartoonish.

Like any person she had good impulses and bad, and the people who fed her best impulses disappeared or grew small in her eyes, and in a moment high on destructive power she used it to do something she had clearly rationalized. Once she burned the first innocent person there was no point in stopping. Did you think previously when she talked about burning cities, she was just imagining doing it to real estate, or calmly marching all the innocents out first, or that it was an empty threat? If you rewatch the scene early in the episode where Tyrion is imploring her not to burn the city, she lays out her rationale and it's in character.

This is utter nonsense. She had won the day with almost no civilian losses, a thing that never happened in real medieval warfare, and only happened because she utterly decimated the opposing army with her dragon (so much for using the NK as a narrative plot point to make their armies more matched up). She then, according to the writers and executive producers of the show, "Saw the Red Keep, this building her family had built 300 years ago" and how much she had lost, and just then, decided to make it personal. They then go on to say, "I don't think she was thinking about it until that moment" and equally ridiculous things like, "If she wasn't pushed by all these small little events" like Missandei and Jon's true heritage, "she wouldn't have done this." This is the narrative they're trying to push, that she literally snapped.

And yes, you can stop after killing the first person in a fit of rage, and it's infinitely better than keeping on going.

It's like you're justifying genocide because, "Hey, why not, we already started, might as well finish."

And yes, you do need to be cartoonishly evil to butcher innocent people en masse. It's called genocide, and it's like one of the worst crimes in human history. The rationale she lays out to Tyrion is utter fucking nonsense, and if the writers had any sense at all, Tyrion would have pushed back on her. "We're showing mercy for future generations..........by killing this generation!"


Jesus Christ on a fucking stick.

[eschatological]

Just as an aside, Dany's feeling of isolation is utterly bereft of anything. The previous episode laid out that the remnants of the Reach, Dorne under a new prince, the Riverlands, the Vale, and the North under Jon (with the exception of Sansa who had no practical power as Jon held all the military power), and a rebellious faction of the Iron Islands still backed Dany.

Of the Seven Kingdoms, like 5 of them supported her. Only the Lannisters and the Crownsland (which was controlled by the Lannisters) didn't.

[Prokne]

She's just brutal, vicious, and has no sense of boundaries or humanity. She never really has. Again; for all people talk about her "freeing slaves" in Essos, how much time have we spent looking at those ruling her regime in Essos, since she left? Precisely none. Because she didn't leave anyone in control. She abandoned the continent and took everything she could with her.

For all we know, Meereen and Atropos are far worse than they ever were before the Khaleesi showed up. We've really been given no reason to think any of her actions had any lasting effect. Everything she did in Essos was for one purpose; building up forces to attack Westeros. That's all she was doing.

She left Daario Naharis and the Second Sons in charge of the cities in Essos, but she never said whether or not she was coming back. We have no idea what is going on there right now. It's possible they are doing fine and it's equally possible they have been plunged into chaos and risk being taken over because the bulk of her army left with her to go to another continent. So yeah, it seems like she doesn't really care about those places, she was just there to get soldiers and raise her dragons.

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Scorpions. I was literally shaking my head for 5 minutes when all of the scorpions just go puff. Really? I know Dany destroys everything this episode, but also logic?

I'm not saying this is you, but people can't complain that ship mounted scorpions can hit a flying dragon with 3 perfect hits in one episode and then complain that the scorpions weren't in any way effective in the next episode unless they are pointing out the inconsistent writing. The writing in this case was bad. The scorpions can't be both deadly accurate and unable to hit the broad side of a barn. Personally, I would have chosen the depiction of them in episode 5 because it would have to be a lucky shot to hit a flying dragon from moving ship and they have all sorts of vulnerabilities.

What annoys me way more: Pushing Jon as the "better" king.

Isn't one of the messages of the whole story that honorable man are bad rulers? Now all of a sudden, this is what we want. Especially for Jon: He already was a ruler, and not a good one. Didn't see the plot coming and died!

If this is now the new message "honorable man are the perfect rulers" - we could have ended the whole series in episode 7 with Ned arresting Cersei and a happy ending.

If they do this, they are quite possibly the worst writers ever. Jon is the last person you want to be king of Westeros unless you want someone who is easy to manipulate on the throne so that you can take it from him.

[deepr]

Let's see, what happened to Dany.....
She lost two dragons, which she called her children.
She lost her two closest friends/advisors: Jorah, Missandei.
She found out she didnt have the highest claim to the throne.
She lost the (physical) love from Jon after he found out she is his aunt.
She had to deal with an abundance of terror and death in the Winterfell battle.
She was let down by Tyrion and betrayed by Varis, her remaining close advisors.
She was never well received in the north in the first place: they didnt want her as queen, they didnt show gratitude for helping them against NK.
And there's more I'm sure.
Besides that she has shown to be ruthless against her enemies many times before. And she is a Targaryen who apparently have a history of going mad.

So, is it all that surpising that she lost it at King's Landing...??

[Sezh]

I have been disappointed with every episode I've seen since season 7 aired, but this last episode was in fact the first episode I found myself enjoying.
Almost every bad thing about this episode is only bad because of the horrible writing that has come before it.

But first, one thing people seem to dislike that I don't agree with:
I don't view Dany burning the city as "Dany going mad". For many seasons, we have been told that Dany has no love in Westeros. No one knows who she is, no one wants her to rule them. Jorah has been telling her this from the start. Now that Jon turned out to be the true heir, she has told him that if the world finds out, she will not get the throne - because she is not loved. Right before the battle, she gives Jon a chance to rule with her, together as King and Queen. But he don't want her now that he knows they're related. So she says to him "Fear it is, then". When King's Landing surrenders, she can't allow it because she won't be able to rule on mercy and love - it has to be fear. She has to murder thousands so millions fear her. Whether she does this for lust for power or with twisted Thanosy logic, I don't know. That's the real discussion to be had I think.

Now to the things made bad by previous episodes:
1. I don't mind at all the way Jaime and Cersei die. It's a nice end to their story, dying together with Jaime's line that only they matter. But it's a ruined moment because of the way Jaime has been forced to behave by the writers. He should have died immediatly in the North when the dead swarmed the front lines. Don't put him there if he shouldn't be able to survive. Also, just because Tyrion unlocks him handcuffs (with a key he had.. Why?) doesn't mean he can sneak into the castle without trouble. But that doesn't matter to the lazy writers, does it? Imagine if Jaime had never went north, he had stayed in Kings Landing to the end, trying to convince Cersei to see reason but he's unable to, and at the end they die like they did. Satisfying imo.

2. Cleganebowl. It's fanservice, let's be real. But I don't mind it. What I do mind is that Sandor shouldn't be there. His arc lead him to pacifism, then to the brotherhood, then beyond the wall. Why is he back where he started? Leave Sandor out of the entire travesty that was the journey beyond the wall, leave him out of winterfel. They could have done something so much better with him staying in the South. He could have ran into Arya instead of going to King's Landing instead, both of them going in during the fighting to kill Cersei/Gregor but he convinves her to not be like him, and then go die against his brother. Showing us that in the end, he was too far gone to change, but fulfilling a purpose before he goes to die for meaningless revenge. Don't show us a man can change if he's then gonna do a 180º.

3. The Iron Fleet and the Scorpions. Drogon was completely OP, obliterating everything in its path. As it should. Nothing about the way the dragon destroyed the fleet and kings landing was stupid, except that we have just the episode before been taught that Euron can murder a dragon with 3 perfect shots, not a single miss, from partly behind a cliff with ease. You cannot show us that shit and then show us something else entirely the episode after.

The only thing in the episode that's just really stupid on its on is the fact that Euron stumbles ashore exactly where Jaime is, exactly when he does. Why? So we get to see the horrible Euron die and cheer together at the bar? What purpose was there to their fight? Jaime was gonna die anyway. It's just one too many instances of important characters suddenly running into other important characters. At some point, you can't argue coincedence anymore.

[Graden]

Now Danyfans know how Stannisbros felt.

This so much. I will never forgive or forget what they did to my favorite character of all time.

The funny thing is, it turns out that even show Stannis, as much as butchered as he was compared to the books, would still be the better choice in my opinion.

[Prokne]

Let's see, what happened to Dany.....
She lost two dragons, which she called her children.
She lost her two closest friends/advisors: Jorah, Missandei.
She found out she didnt have the highest claim to the throne.
She lost the (physical) love from Jon after he found out she is his aunt.
She had to deal with an abundance of terror and death in the Winterfell battle.
She was let down by Tyrion and betrayed by Varis, her remaining close advisors.
She was never well received in the north in the first place: they didnt want her as queen, they didnt show gratitude for helping them against NK.
And there's more I'm sure.
Besides that she has shown to be ruthless against her enemies many times before. And she is a Targayen who apparently have a history of going mad.

So, is it all that surpising that she lost it at King's Landing...??

She also let Jaime live after wanting to kill him for kingslaying and then caught him trying to go back and help her enemy. So forgiving people doesn't work to gain their allegiance either.

[Jayma]

Let's see, what happened to Dany.....
She lost two dragons, which she called her children.
She lost her two closest friends/advisors: Jorah, Missandei.
She found out she didnt have the highest claim to the throne.
She lost the (physical) love from Jon after he found out she is his aunt.
She had to deal with an abundance of terror and death in the Winterfell battle.
She was let down by Tyrion and betrayed by Varis, her remaining close advisors.
She was never well received in the north in the first place: they didnt want her as queen, they didnt show gratitude for helping them against NK.
And there's more I'm sure.
Besides that she has shown to be ruthless against her enemies many times before. And she is a Targayen who apparently have a history of going mad.

So, is it all that surpising that she lost it at King's Landing...??

Yes

People need to differentiate between being angry and crazy. The Mad King was certifiably crazy and had been for years. This is not comparable
An angry Dany doing all this only makes her worse than her father. Which I also find hard to believe.

[Ihavewaffles]

Do i think Daenarys skips a few steps in character development? Yes.

But what really annoyed me:

Scorpions. I was literally shaking my head for 5 minutes when all of the scorpions just go puff. Really? I know Dany destroys everything this episode, but also logic?

What annoys me way more: Pushing Jon as the "better" king.

Isn't one of the messages of the whole story that honorable man are bad rulers? Now all of a sudden, this is what we want. Especially for Jon: He already was a ruler, and not a good one. Didn't see the plot coming and died!

If this is now the new message "honorable man are the perfect rulers" - we could have ended the whole series in episode 7 with Ned arresting Cersei and a happy ending.

So ur complaining that scorpions aren't bs op? Really?

[Jayma]

So ur complaining that scorpions aren't bs op? Really?

They buff them to balance Dany and nerf them when she's properly tuned.
Bit of an over nerf this episode.