[TV/Books] Game of Thrones ***SPOILER Discussion***

[Ihavewaffles]

They buff them to balance Dany and nerf them when she's properly tuned.
Bit of an over nerf this episode.

There is no nerf.

They were still too good than they would have been irl.

And Rhaegal wouldn't have been hit. It's short-range weapon, used against infantry. Does aim badly, long re-load.

[Pannonian]

So ur complaining that scorpions aren't bs op? Really?

Yes i do, after one week ago they were portrayed that way.

See, what happened in the last episode is what i imagined a dragon would look like in battle. It's what the books told us too. But last week we saw how 3 hits easily kill a dragon.

Now all the scorpions are just instantly annihilated. That's bad writing. Yes. I would have had no problems with it, if it wasn't for last weeks


Another thing that crossed my mind: Her father was ultimately killed because he stored wildfire everywhere in KL and wanted to ignite it. Now his daugther burned down the city and also ignited the wildfire her father has planted.

Yeah she had reasons, and she took what was hers by right, by any means necessary. The same as her father...

[rogueMatthias]

There is no nerf.

They were still too good than they would have been irl.

And Rhaegal wouldn't have been hit. It's short-range weapon, used against infantry. Does aim badly, long re-load.

I was reading an article trying to work out the maths.

To hit the dragon they would need to have been fired at 2,000m/s (4,484 miles per hour). Maybe they were "magic'" ballistas?

[Elim Garak]

But last week we saw how 3 hits easily kill a dragon.

Are you familiar with the concept of "a surprise attack"?

[Zaktar]

This is utter nonsense. She had won the day with almost no civilian losses, a thing that never happened in real medieval warfare, and only happened because she utterly decimated the opposing army with her dragon (so much for using the NK as a narrative plot point to make their armies more matched up). She then, according to the writers and executive producers of the show, "Saw the Red Keep, this building her family had built 300 years ago" and how much she had lost, and just then, decided to make it personal. They then go on to say, "I don't think she was thinking about it until that moment" and equally ridiculous things like, "If she wasn't pushed by all these small little events" like Missandei and Jon's true heritage, "she wouldn't have done this." This is the narrative they're trying to push, that she literally snapped.

And yes, you can stop after killing the first person in a fit of rage, and it's infinitely better than keeping on going.

It's like you're justifying genocide because, "Hey, why not, we already started, might as well finish."

And yes, you do need to be cartoonishly evil to butcher innocent people en masse. It's called genocide, and it's like one of the worst crimes in human history. The rationale she lays out to Tyrion is utter fucking nonsense, and if the writers had any sense at all, Tyrion would have pushed back on her. "We're showing mercy for future generations..........by killing this generation!"


Jesus Christ on a fucking stick.

You're saying the worst mass murderers of history were cartoonish? Cartoonish, as I interpret it, means unrealistic, are you saying what you mean to here? Thanks for explaining that it's possible to stop killing people? My best policy is to never start, but I'm also not a fictional dragon-riding queen who believes she is destined to rule a continent.

The rationale she lays out is insane, no question about it, the problem is it builds from pre-established places. Tyrion does push back, really hard, and does everything he can to give her reasons not to do it. He's been doing this for a while with her character but has fallen too far out of favor to have enough effect. As Daenerys makes clear though, if he pushes back too hard he'll be killed.

It's absolutely not in character to kill thousands of innocent people for a battle she's already won. Most of the king's landing talks centered around the Red Keep which seemed the least of her priorities this episode. The bells were clearly used in some dumb way to depict her breaking point.

Can't speak to the bells thing, to me it was just a way of trying to draw an arrow for the audience "important moment here" and "this moment connects to that conversation we hope you remember." Not a lot of subtlety left in the series.

You say she's won the battle, and okay, but she's not just fighting a battle, she's trying to rule the continent, and that means more than just technically occupying the throne. Rule requires consent - including the now-thankfully-illegal kind of coercive consent granted by saying something like, "I will burn you and all your people if you don't do what I tell you." (Mostly, IRS still basically works off of this). You need people to accept your power over them in some way, Daenerys boils it down to "love or fear" in the episode I think. Meanwhile, her rage and paranoia are at peak, for some good reasons. She has lots of proof that this land she thinks she is destined to rule is populated by those who don't want her there. Even the people she trusts from Westeros, she can't seem to really trust. From what I see laid out in the episode, she wants to send a message to anyone who seeks to oppose her. Rule by fear or love, she chooses fear, and really she's correct to if what she wants is power. Even the guy who loves her can't love her, how is she supposed to win over a whole people? Okay okay it doesn't really work like that, but the point is there are lots of signs telling her she's only going to wield power if she makes people afraid of her. Not sure how the writers can say the thought never occurred to her when she's just shy of openly saying she wants to burn the city; but to me her turn seems more like something Martin would have planned than they would have come up with. Hopefully we get to find out!

Maybe it's not clear but I'm a pacifist, hate violence, hate that people use fear to dominate others. It's been used throughout history, as have barbaric shows of force, to compel people to submit. I am deeply grateful to live in a time where this is not as common. Daenreys was always a great example of the kind of person who is willing to do this.

[cface]

But that is an irrational "snap" into madness. Whcih, as I said earlier, is a narrative choice, but a weak one in this case. It is 1) unjustified by her previous sympathies with these very kind of folk, and 2) makes her a cartoonish villain with no nuance, no justification, no remorse for when someone, likely Jon, inevitably has to kill her and remove her from power.

cartoonish villain..... have you ever in your life read a tiny bit of history??? Salty danybois..

[kamuimac]

Tbh every episode this season has been pretty poor

they are generous i woudl go with :

80-80-20-20-5-..... (probably 0-5)

last 3 episodes were just plain garbage.

[Amaterasu65]

Because it is not Bran anymore. It is the Three Eyed Raven a.k.a Bloodraven, a Targaryan bastard.

This is not the books. Bran is the 3 eyed raven but a Stark. Hell, even in the books Bran is Bran.

[Sezh]

Imagine thinking Dany killing evil people, slave owners, and mutineers is somehow similar to killing innocents and an army that THREW DOWN THEIR WEAPONS.

You have to be pants-on-head ignorant to think this is in character.

I don't care if she goes mad queen, but how about a build up that lasts longer than, say, one episode.

I don't know how many times it has to be said - people aren't angry over Dany going mad. They are mad at how rushed and forced it was. Just like with Arya killing the NK.

More episodes and different writers would have fixed it.

But that is an irrational "snap" into madness. Whcih, as I said earlier, is a narrative choice, but a weak one in this case. It is 1) unjustified by her previous sympathies with these very kind of folk, and 2) makes her a cartoonish villain with no nuance, no justification, no remorse for when someone, likely Jon, inevitably has to kill her and remove her from power.

I don't view Dany burning the city as "Dany going mad". For many seasons, we have been told that Dany has no love in Westeros. No one knows who she is, no one wants her to rule them. Jorah has been telling her this from the start. Now that Jon turned out to be the true heir, she has told him that if the world finds out, she will not get the throne - because she is not loved. Right before the battle, she gives Jon a chance to rule with her, together as King and Queen. But he don't want her now that he knows they're related. So she says to him "Fear it is, then". When King's Landing surrenders, she can't allow it because she won't be able to rule on mercy and love - it has to be fear. She has to murder thousands so millions fear her. Whether she does this for lust for power or with twisted Thanosy logic, I don't know. That's the real discussion to be had I think.

[Super Kami Dende]

Are you familiar with the concept of "a surprise attack"?

A surprise attack which managed to have all 3 shots perfectly lined up to hit a Flying Dragon that drastically altered its course after it's first hit?

Yes, I have heard the concept of shitty writing.

[Soimu]

Let's see, what happened to Dany.....
She lost two dragons, which she called her children.
She lost her two closest friends/advisors: Jorah, Missandei.
She found out she didnt have the highest claim to the throne.
She lost the (physical) love from Jon after he found out she is his aunt.
She had to deal with an abundance of terror and death in the Winterfell battle.
She was let down by Tyrion and betrayed by Varis, her remaining close advisors.
She was never well received in the north in the first place: they didnt want her as queen, they didnt show gratitude for helping them against NK.
And there's more I'm sure.
Besides that she has shown to be ruthless against her enemies many times before. And she is a Targaryen who apparently have a history of going mad.

So, is it all that surpising that she lost it at King's Landing...??

Daenerys did the right thing, they were given a change and f....d it up.

[Xorzor]

It seems that Film Theory's video on "Mad Queen Dany" was right all along.

[Airlick]

Jon will never sit on the Iron Throne, because he doesn't want it and is too dumb to realize that what he wants is irrelevant.

Plus he isn't an incest baby. Those Stark genes could keep him sane.

- - - Updated - - -



The season doesn't need salvaging.

What happened with GoT is the same thing that happens with every goddamn piece of media that gathers a following. On one hand we have fans who froth at the mouth because there is nothing happening in episodes with lots of down time. Then we have equally rapid and loud fans losing their fucking minds over the show not dedicating several episodes to people just travelling from place A to place B. The show just can't win with an audience of millions of people who all have their own fan-canons and ships that they ship, who all take it as a personal slight if their particular head canon isn't the one that the show runners went with.

And it also doesn't help that writing is utter shit, with writers deliberately taking a dump all over the plotlines they've been establishing for years, only to give us 3 minutes long throw-away scenes, if at all. At least the action is good and the production quality is obviously through the roof, but these are the only reasons for me to watch it.

[Ihavewaffles]

And it also doesn't help that writing is utter shit, with writers deliberately taking a dump all over the plotlines they've been establishing for years, only to give us 3 minutes long throw-away scenes, if at all. At least the action is good and the production quality is obviously through the roof, but these are the only reasons for me to watch it.

The only writer to blame is fat slob g.martin stuffing his face n not even trying to finish the books anymore.

[Airlick]

The only writer to blame is fat slob g.martin stuffing his face n not even trying to finish the books anymore.

Not really, both Martin and D&D are to blame here.

[Soimu]

Whut? Who fucked up?

the people in westeros, lanisters.
not only that they betrayed her by not sending support north they even killed one of the dragons and her best friend and advisor, plus they had the option to surrender and she went full mongol on them (innocents getting killed is not right i know but in every war they are collateral damage and no one forced them to go in the city as far as i know).

[Sezh]

the people in westeros, lanisters.
not only that they betrayed her by not sending support north they even killed one of the dragons and her best friend and advisor, plus they had the option to surrender and she went full mongol on them (innocents getting killed is not right i know but in every war they are collateral damage and no one forced them to go in the city as far as i know).

They were not collateral damage and she was not mad nor angry. She decided that if she show them mercy they will never fear her, and like she said to Jon: "Fear it is, then". She has to murder thousands so millions will fear her, otherwise they will never accept her as their ruler.

[Celista]

The only thing in the episode that's just really stupid on its on is the fact that Euron stumbles ashore exactly where Jaime is, exactly when he does. Why? So we get to see the horrible Euron die and cheer together at the bar? What purpose was there to their fight? Jaime was gonna die anyway. It's just one too many instances of important characters suddenly running into other important characters. At some point, you can't argue coincedence anymore.

Yeah was going to comment this earlier but I'm starting to get pissed off at the shitty writing this season and don't want to ruminate on it. Ridiculous scene that served no real purpose.

I also liked Jamie and Ceraei's ending, felt appropriate and Shakespeare-esque despite the fact that as mentioned Jamie should have died off long ago.

Also agree with your point #3 but imo that surprise attack with three perfect shots never should have happened to begin with.

[Soimu]

They were not collateral damage and she was not mad nor angry. She decided that if she show them mercy they will never fear her, and like she said to Jon: "Fear it is, then". She has to murder thousands so millions will fear her, otherwise they will never accept her as their ruler.

well she looked a little angry before the barbeque ).

[Celista]

The only writer to blame is fat slob g.martin stuffing his face n not even trying to finish the books anymore.

Would seem very GRRM esque to sabotage the tv series in the last season so that people will buy his next book instead.

Though Occam's Razor suggests that season 8 is mostly due to a shitty writing team with no actual malice intended.