[TV/Books] Game of Thrones ***SPOILER Discussion***

[Khaza-R]

Follow up:

Wow that Emilia Clark reaction...

That is not promising at all for next Sunday

[Sooba]

Indeed. As plenty have said, this was foreshadowed. However, just as with Arya and the whole "blue eyes" business in episode 3, "it was foreshadowed" does not mean "therefore it's good writing". The plunge from "ruthless and driven, but held back by principles" into "genocidal maniac" is too sudden, and too severe.

Had Dany decided to torch the Red Keep, uncaring for the civilians Cercei packed there, I wouldn't have had an issue with it. It would be a terrible and very ruthless act, but justified by her previous failures and losses going to her head and making her favor a more direct approach. It would also be more interesting and morally ambiguous in a Tywin-esque, ends-justify-the-means way.

Going out of her way to slaughter every single commoner in sight before gunning for the ones who actually wronged her after achieving victory is several steps too far, however, and removes any single possible moral ambiguity from the scene. Dany is a monster now, and there's no reason not to kill her.

This ultimately is the issue. I actually have little doubt that Dany has a parallel or similar end in the books. However, I have a feeling GRRM (assuming he ever gets there), will provide a narrative and character motivation that actually demonstrates the change. Much like Stannis' end and the Dorne abortion, etc.

It is bad writing. Not because it couldn't happen, or that it isn't within a character's capacity - which some people seem to be getting hung up on (or seemingly are being backed into that position, which really isn't tenable.) But rather because the arc is so unbelievably rushed, hamfisted, and thus ultimately feels out-of-character. This is what happens when the change has not been sufficiently earned.

I think that's why some of the actors seem so sour as well. They know what they've portrayed. They know their characters haven't earned these moments yet.

[MatadorMedia]

Uhh... Tyrion sent Jaime the secret way in and out of the Red Keep to save Cersei and have them flee the city to prevent a war. Pay attention.

[Sooba]

It looks to me that the planned end of the story was to have Dany flip and burn Westeros into submission. The reason it has turned out the way it has in the show is because doing that with the required amount of character development would have taken many more seasons than the writers wanted to make, so they rushed it.

As far as the Night King and undead army, the NK isn't in the books so the winter could be more involved than the show and might happen in a different sequence than season 8. D&D made up the NK and decided themselves 3 years ago to have Arya kill him, so it seems to me that part of the story is very much their own creation to give the White Walkers a main TV villain.

But unless GRRM changes his mind, I think Dany's specific ending is close to this one.

Agreed w/ the first paragraph. The second begs the question as to how the WW/Wights get taken down if it's not so conveniently packaged as "remove the leader and it's all good!"

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Uhh... Tyrion sent Jaime the secret way in and out of the Red Keep to save Cersei and have them flee the city to prevent a war. Pay attention.

Ehh. Weak protest, really. Waiting 'til the last second and then sending someone who is demonstrably unreliable in this matter to ferret her away is objectively pretty dumb. He could've acted as soon as the war in the North was done (or hell, before. They have been fighting Cersei for some time). In fact, both Tyrion and Varys knew about those passages. Either one could have solved this. Arya with a servant's face + Ser Onion the smuggler = dead Cersei. Send the Hound along for diversion if you so feel. This could've been solved a loooong time ago. There is zero excuse for Tyrion, supposedly incredibly intelligent, or Varys, supposedly very philosophically utilitarian and cunning, to have not come up with this solution.

The reason it wasn't done was because... it's a plot hole. That's about it. A rather glaring one that really doesn't make much sense given what we know about these characters.

In other news, Elizabeth May is the name of the leader of the Green Party in Canada. I did a double take with that tweet.

[eschatological]

It doesn't really matter, Arya and Varys both knew of that secret way. Arya even intended to kill Cersei, and didn't use it. Varys told no one, though maybe you could argue he didn't want Dany to stroll in after getting an easy victory, but I think even Varys would know making it easy for Dany would have made it easier to check her "mad" tendencies.

[Sooba]

It doesn't really matter, Arya and Varys both knew of that secret way. Arya even intended to kill Cersei, and didn't use it. Varys told no one, though maybe you could argue he didn't want Dany to stroll in after getting an easy victory, but I think even Varys would know making it easy for Dany would have made it easier to check her "mad" tendencies.

That's true, forgot about her flight from the city. So there's three of them who are aware. Presumably Varys knows them best given that he's explored and used them extensively. But yeah, that makes three of them who just... didn't bother suggesting it for inexplicable reasons.

Further, had they done so sufficiently early, Varys would still be supporting Dany. They wouldn't even have needed Arya's skills (although that would have made it a breeze.) Varys himself would have been capable of popping out of the wall, stabbing Cersei in her sleep, and walking away. Or sending a "little bird" to do it. Or any number of sufficiently stealthy dudes who are well remunerated.

[Theodarzna]

As much as I feel Season 8 is the Fyre Festival of this series, I will say I am in the "Dany Was Justified" camp if you follow the narrative as badly done like it.

This is what happens when you cheat and have all the answers to the test but then you're tripped up when don't know how to show your work. "Mad" Dany was the endgame the show was working back from, not carefully toward.

I think they were trying for the idea that the mostly male Westerosi nobility and followers unwarranted fears that Dany would automatically inherit her father's penchant for burning people would backfire and drive her toward a destiny she would rather avoid. But I don't think the show cares whether that was ever her fear, only a fear Tyrion, Varys and Sansa had, and that they were always right to be scared instead of responsible. Dany, reasonably, suggests burning the Red Keep upon arrival. The show, using Tyrion as its proxy, tells us that this would risk too many innocent lives. She listens, but they present her annoyance and frustration as concerting more than justified. From a Doylist perspective, this makes no sense at all. There's no reason to assume she'd kill thousands by burning Cersei directly, especially if Tyrion/the show ignore the caches of wildfire stored throughout the city. It would be one thing if the show realized his, but they don't really present Tyrion as a saboteur, just as desperately concerned for the lives of the innocents he bemoaned saving three seasons prior. The show uses Tyrion (and fucking Varys! Who was more than happy to feed her father's delusions!) to question Dany's morality, her violence. Tyrion and Varys' moral ambiguity is washed away, so they can increasingly position Dany as the villain.

The show 'gets' at how Varys plotting against her furthers her feelings of isolation and instability, but do they 'get' that he was in the wrong? That he had no reason to assume Jon would make a better ruler than Dany (especially since he's never interacted with Jon)? That he suddenly became useless when he started working for her? That he's been a terrible adviser? Does the show realize he's a hypocrite? His death is presented sympathetically - a man just trying to do the right thing. Poor Varys was a piece of shit.

And Tyrion! Poor Tyrion. Just trying to do the right thing. Smart people make mistakes because they're not ruthless enough because this is Game of Thrones. Does the show realize how transparently, inexcusably stupid every single piece of advice he's given Dany has been? 802 presents Dany as morally questionable because she might fire Tyrion, but of course she should fire Tyrion! He's incredibly incompetent!

Does the show realize Jon keeps sabotaging Dany? That she's right to be pissed at him, and if anything, should be more pissed? He tells everyone in the North he bent the knee for alliances rather than out of faith in her leadership. Well no shit they all hate her! You just told them she wouldn't help without submission! He then proceeds to tell his sisters about his lineage, right after Dany explained to him that they would plot against her if they knew, and right after they tell him that Dany's right and they're plotting against her. Again, the show definitely 'gets' why Jon's behavior feels like a betrayal to Dany, but do they get that it actually is a betrayal? I don't see them getting that part.

The problem for the Mad Queen direction is that its a series of sexist stereotypes on some level, of a woman turning evil with power. Dany is crazy and evil now for burning a city Tyrion lamented saving and turned on him, that cheered for Ned Starks death, and we are supposed to go "ohh boo Dany," but really had D&D done a better job her "descent into madness" could have been far more satisfying. And I think they were TRYING to hint at it but the showrunners got fucking lazy and are just galloping to hit major story points and ignoring all that critical details.

[GreenJesus]

For fuck's sake...

Daenarys initially thought that the people would all love her, because this was the fairytale that she was fed in her childhood. There have been multiple instances on the show of people discussing the fact that rulers need either the to be either loved or feared by the people for them to be effective rulers. Daenarys has spent multiple episodes trying to get the people of Westeros to love her since her arrival, but has not been able to do so despite helping them fight the war against the Night King. The last 2 episodes have been Daenarys realizing that she will never have the love of the people, and she even fucking acknowledges this to Jon. So what is there left for her if she wants to rule? Let's not pretend that power itself has not been her ultimate goal all along ever since season 1. Power and being on the top has always been her number one objective, and everyone who thought otherwise is both blind and dumb. Ruling through fear is the only choice she has left. Inciting fear is why she burns King's Landing. Just burning the Red Keep would not have had that effect, as civilians killed by accident would have just been a side effect. She had to show her wrath and power directly to the citizens. Deliberately attack them to make them truly dear her.

She could set the Red keep on fire and knock it down, have the Dragon barbeque Cercei and eat her and then and declare "I am your new queen. Bow before me or meet the same fate"... That would scare the shit out of me.. How do you make people fear you if they are all dead?

[GreenJesus]

Honestly I want the Unsullied to act like Unsullied for once, and without hesitation carry out the wish of whom ever takes the throne FROM Daenarys, and kill the Dothraki to the last man.

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She had to demonstrate that she is not above directly attacking the civilian population if she feels they have wronged her. In her mind the people had to be directly afraid of her, not of some collate damage when she kills the leaders.

But then there is no one left to be afraid of her??? and the entire Kingdom is ashes.. That means 0 economic output and no taxes.. She could have burned all the civilians that went to the Red keep and left the rest of the city. I don't get why she "Had" to burn EVERYTHING.

She said it a few episodes ago.. "I don't want to be the queen of ashes". She said that!

[Varodoc]

I think qyburn could create giant zombies and dragons better than the NK if he had their bodies!!

No.

The Night King is the embodiement of Death, Qyburn is just an upstart maester.

[Waynhim]

Follow up:

What amazes me these days is that people need help by "influencers" to make up/color their own opinion, and even use said "influencers" as arguments. Also broad statements of fact.

Personally not impressed by all the content in the latest season, but with the timelimit they had it was a hopeless task. It will be even worse when/if G.R.R, Martin decides to converge/round up the individual threads in the books.

[Veggie50]

So, what are the odds dany gets killed/deposed by that little girl that was with Varys?

She was on a nondescript mission, and she was scared. Varys told her “the greater the risk, the greater the reward”. And when varys got taken, he left some presumably valuable rings behind. Perhaps her reward for completing her mission?

[eschatological]

Zero.

The girl was trying to slip Daenarys poisoned food.

Not to mention that little girl is probably still on Dragonstone.

[cface]

Cartoonish, to me, means 2 dimensional. Flat. Cartoonishly evil simply means she's irrevocably evil, unjustifiably evil, IE flat. The third dimension, in this analogy, implies nuance.

It doesn't mean they're silly or unrealistic.

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See above.

I'm not a danyboi, I've never been a fan of Dany's. I'm a fan of consistent, good writing.

Yes I can agree to that. Not sure what happened to GoT, but good writing can not be on a timeline, it has to finish when it's finished. Putting things on a timeline for creative work never works out well.

[Corvus]

But then there is no one left to be afraid of her??? and the entire Kingdom is ashes.. That means 0 economic output and no taxes.. She could have burned all the civilians that went to the Red keep and left the rest of the city. I don't get why she "Had" to burn EVERYTHING.

She said it a few episodes ago.. "I don't want to be the queen of ashes". She said that!

She burnt one city so that the rest would be too scared to raise any resistance.

Dany has a real Genghis Khan vibe going on, down to having been driven into exile and then fighting to get back control. Genghis was utterly merciless and did depopulate cities so that no one would resist him, but internally his empire was remarkably peaceful and functional. It was said that a young woman could ride alone across the empire carrying a bag of gold and not be robbed, raped or murdered.

You did not cross Genghis.

[Eronath]

The importance of Olenna's speech was truely underestimated back in season 7. She was the first who suggested Daenerys to be ruthless, to embrace herself for what she really is, to lead as the Targaryen bloodline imposed. Due to the fact that House Targaryen has Valeryan blood and magic roots, madness and hunger for power are her destiny and downfall, even if Dany tried to be "more than that" ("more than mother of dragons"). The phrase "let it be fear" was so meaningful: she always wanted to be loved by people (those times are the best moments for her character development, she's compassionate and kind there). And now, in Westeros, she’s spent all this time fighting for people she thought should love her, and when she realizes they never will, she’s willing to let their world burn to punish them. As Olenna said: "[here in Westeros] they won't obey you unless they fear you". So, in the end, love and fear have the same value in her eyes. There is no middle ground.

[Veggie50]

Zero.

The girl was trying to slip Daenarys poisoned food.

The poisoned food is your assumption I suppose? I saw no confirmation of this.

Also, why would Varys take off his rings. I'd say the chance is not zero.

[Th3Scourge]

If she burnt all of Kings Landing, who is she expecting to repopulate it with?

Half of her forces have no dicks

[Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang]

If she burnt all of Kings Landing, who is she expecting to repopulate it with?

Half of her forces have no dicks

Historically the growth of ancient cities was chiefly driven by people moving in from the countryside. As long as the countryside hasn't been scoured of settlements, there will always be tons of second+ sons and unwed daughters that will leave their boondocks for the hope of a better future in the big city.

Like nowadays, cities had much lower if not negative population growth (without immigration), as space has always been a premium, plus the fact that food had to be imported and people piled on each other made them much more vulnerable to famine, epidemics and warfare.

[Drosul]

The poisoned food is your assumption I suppose? I saw no confirmation of this.

Also, why would Varys take off his rings. I'd say the chance is not zero.

His dialogue with the little girl basically goes:

“She won’t eat,” Martha told Varys.

"We’ll try again at supper,” he replied.

Martha let Varys know that she thought soldiers were watching her. “Of course they are,” he responded. "That's their job. What have I told you, Martha?”

"The bigger the risk, the bigger reward,” the girl replied.


It's not directly said, but it's fairly safe to assume his plan to get rid of her was via poisoning her food, using the girl as the potential assassin. If John wasn't willing to take the throne from her by force, he needed a way to get her out of the equation. There's also "the look" he gives Tyrion the previous episode, after Tyrion asked, "what happens to her?" that more or less seemed to imply Tyrion should know it meant her dying.