1. #27681
    Quote Originally Posted by wunksta View Post
    This was always going to happen. Remember her vision? She was always going to be queen of the ashes.


    The only problem is that D&D didn't make a smooth transition and so it feels kind of jarring. It could have made more sense if there was a direct trigger instead of just the bells. Like if Rhaegal had died during the fight or after the surrender.
    That's snow, not ashes. There are even icicles there.

  2. #27682
    Quote Originally Posted by Frontenac View Post
    She was ready to burn Yunkai and Astapor to the ground. There was just as much innocent civilians in those cities than there were in King's Landing.
    I don't even remember if Yunkai exists in the show.

    Astapor she never tried to burn, she killed the upper class then left the city, which is irresponsible as hell but hardly even close to the same as methodically slaughtering the inhabitants street by street.

  3. #27683
    Anung un Rama Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MakeMeLaugh View Post
    That's snow, not ashes. There are even icicles there.
    Ashes often look like snow. And the more relevant point is, that's the throne room in the Red Keep, and it's not just destroyed and open to the air, it's empty. The only voices she hears in this vision are those of the dead.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jastall View Post
    I don't even remember if Yunkai exists in the show.

    Astapor she never tried to burn, she killed the upper class then left the city, which is irresponsible as hell but hardly even close to the same as methodically slaughtering the inhabitants street by street.
    Nobody was saying she did even worse things earlier in the show.

    Foreshadowing is about showing a hint of a future possibility. You have her say "I'll burn your city to the ground" in Season 2, and in Season 8, she . . . burns a city to the ground. That's how it works.

  4. #27684
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post



    Nobody was saying she did even worse things earlier in the show.

    Foreshadowing is about showing a hint of a future possibility. You have her say "I'll burn your city to the ground" in Season 2, and in Season 8, she . . . burns a city to the ground. That's how it works.
    For pete's sake, again, "it was foreshadowed" does NOT mean "it's fine". Tons and tons of potential actions are foreshadowed in the show and never come to pass, such as Jon confronting the Night King which didn't happen because our expectations had to be subverted and a character with 0 links to the King did him in instead. Or the semi-Valonquar prophecy in the show that amounted to absolutely nothing. That this time this particular foreshadowing had a payoff does not mean we should accept the action as a done deal.

    The point is that the magnitudes of Dany's actions before this episode, and the magnitudes of the actions committed here, have no common measure. The character development to get her there was incredibly rushed, and her actual reasons are very unclear unless you hear the writers just state them in the post-episode feature (and even then it doesn't line up with what the episode actually showed us anyway). Previously all her targets fell under the acceptable standards of her day when it came to warfare and politics. Now she goes out of her way to commit an atrocity that would have made Tywin himself pause and caused Jaime to murder Aerys. She didn't cross a line, she crossed a dozen lines in a single jump and the show's writing did not earn that because the season was incredibly rushed.

    Picture this: we've seen Tyrion kill hundreds, maybe thousands of soldiers with Wildfire. We've seen him threaten to murder everyone in the Red Keep during his trial. Would that alone make it fine if he decided to ignite Wildire under the Red Keep and burn thousands to death, commoners taking shelter included? Or would it be too much of a jump between his previous characterization and current one? Or if Jon decided to hang an entire village, foreshadowed by him hanging those who murdered his ass?

  5. #27685
    The Lightbringer Frontenac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jastall View Post
    I don't even remember if Yunkai exists in the show.

    Astapor she never tried to burn, she killed the upper class then left the city, which is irresponsible as hell but hardly even close to the same as methodically slaughtering the inhabitants street by street.
    Yes, Yunkai exists in the show. I suggest you look at the clip someone has posted in an earlier post. A fleet composed of ships from Yunkai, Astapor and Volantis are bombarding Meereen. What Dany plans to do? "I will crucify the Masters, set their ships to fire, kill every last one of their soldiers and return their cities to the dust."

    When you destroy a city, there's a chance that its citizens will die with it...

    The difference between then and now is that in Essos she always had advisors to change her mind. She is now left with no advisors she can trust. Therefore, in her rage she follows her first idea. Is it sane? No. But there was foreshadowing of the extreme measures she could take.
    "Je vous répondrai par la bouche de mes canons!"

  6. #27686
    The Insane PACOX's Avatar
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    @Jastall Dany is just Aegon (the first, not Jon), hear great, great, great, whatever uncle/grandfather without his surprise factor.

    Her invasion is very similar to his own with the variations being what might get her killed (I hope).

    What they should have done was referenced her similarities to him more as she views herself as a savior because people forget how her family came to power.

    The irony is that Aegon (Jon) will end the house is the finale follows natural progression.

  7. #27687
    Quote Originally Posted by PACOX View Post
    @Jastall Dany is just Aegon (the first, not Jon), hear great, great, great, whatever uncle/grandfather without his surprise factor.

    Her invasion is very similar to his own with the variations being what might get her killed (I hope).

    What they should have done was referenced her similarities to him more as she views herself as a savior because people forget how her family came to power.

    The irony is that Aegon (Jon) will end the house is the finale follows natural progression.
    Aegon accepted the surrender of the Lords of Westeros, however. He killed thousands in battle at the Fields of Fire but did not continue burning things after his victory. Same for Harrenhall where he stopped after Harren was torched. Aegon and his sisters were far less merciful towards Dorne... but the Dornish never surrendered, their reputation comes from the fact they kept going even as the Targaryen burnt every castle and holdfast they could get their dragons on (but not Sunspear or the nearby city itself, notably). All in all Aegon was indeed a ruthless conqueror but there are no records of him going out of his way to massacre commoners. Unless the show's backstory on him significantly differs from the book's, of course.

    @Frontenac see my response above. Words are wind, as the books put it so often, and foreshadowing is not good enough when a character makes such a significant shift.

  8. #27688
    The Lightbringer Frontenac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jastall View Post
    Aegon accepted the surrender of the Lords of Westeros, however. He killed thousands in battle at the Fields of Fire but did not continue burning things after his victory. Same for Harrenhall where he stopped after Harren was torched. Aegon and his sisters were far less merciful towards Dorne... but the Dornish never surrendered, their reputation comes from the fact they kept going even as the Targaryen burnt every castle and holdfast they could get their dragons on (but not Sunspear or the nearby city itself, notably). All in all Aegon was indeed a ruthless conqueror but there are no records of him going out of his way to massacre commoners. Unless the show's backstory on him significantly differs from the book's, of course.

    @Frontenac see my response above. Words are wind, as the books put it so often, and foreshadowing is not good enough when a character makes such a significant shift.
    And read mine again. It is not a question of words. She would have done it if Tyrion had not convinced her otherwise. I mean, you have a woman who was able to crucify all those masters, give a man to her dragons to burn and eat. We have been shown she is unable to take "no" as an answer and how she can react to a rebuke. She is able to commit atrocities. The only shift is in the scope of it all.
    "Je vous répondrai par la bouche de mes canons!"

  9. #27689
    Quote Originally Posted by Jastall View Post
    For pete's sake, again, "it was foreshadowed" does NOT mean "it's fine". Tons and tons of potential actions are foreshadowed in the show and never come to pass, such as Jon confronting the Night King which didn't happen because our expectations had to be subverted and a character with 0 links to the King did him in instead. Or the semi-Valonquar prophecy in the show that amounted to absolutely nothing. That this time this particular foreshadowing had a payoff does not mean we should accept the action as a done deal.

    The point is that the magnitudes of Dany's actions before this episode, and the magnitudes of the actions committed here, have no common measure. The character development to get her there was incredibly rushed, and her actual reasons are very unclear unless you hear the writers just state them in the post-episode feature (and even then it doesn't line up with what the episode actually showed us anyway). Previously all her targets fell under the acceptable standards of her day when it came to warfare and politics. Now she goes out of her way to commit an atrocity that would have made Tywin himself pause and caused Jaime to murder Aerys. She didn't cross a line, she crossed a dozen lines in a single jump and the show's writing did not earn that because the season was incredibly rushed.

    Picture this: we've seen Tyrion kill hundreds, maybe thousands of soldiers with Wildfire. We've seen him threaten to murder everyone in the Red Keep during his trial. Would that alone make it fine if he decided to ignite Wildire under the Red Keep and burn thousands to death, commoners taking shelter included? Or would it be too much of a jump between his previous characterization and current one? Or if Jon decided to hang an entire village, foreshadowed by him hanging those who murdered his ass?
    The difference is that those events aren't foreshadowed, they are just more extreme versions of one event which ignore context. If Jon had been talking about hanging people, threatening to hang people, held back from hanging people, and then was betrayed and suffered a string of major losses, and was talking about hanging an entire village, we might consider his doing so well set up.

  10. #27690
    Quote Originally Posted by Frontenac View Post
    And read mine again. It is not a question of words. She would have done it if Tyrion had not convinced her otherwise. I mean, you have a woman who was able to crucify all those masters, give a man to her dragons to burn and eat. We have been shown she is unable to take "no" as an answer and how she can react to a rebuke. She is able to commit atrocities. The only shift is in the scope of it all.
    The scope IS important, mind you, and the surrender is also an important point, the Masters were still at war with her when she said that. I've no doubt she would have set fire to the fleets and slaughtered the masters, but at this time she still had a soft spot for the slaves and it would have been out of character for her to go out of her way to torch them all after the fighting was done.

    So... yeah it kinda remains words. Or at least initial intent, which is not the same thing as action. To say nothing of the fact that Dany's hatred of the Masters was well established in the show, whereas in King's Landing she outright ignores Cercei in favor of torching the commoners of King's Landing whose worse crime towards her was not loving her unconditionally.

  11. #27691
    Quote Originally Posted by Frontenac View Post
    And read mine again. It is not a question of words. She would have done it if Tyrion had not convinced her otherwise. I mean, you have a woman who was able to crucify all those masters, give a man to her dragons to burn and eat. We have been shown she is unable to take "no" as an answer and how she can react to a rebuke. She is able to commit atrocities. The only shift is in the scope of it all.
    So you'll be fine if Sansa and Arya goes and slaughters people cos they already have a thirst for it with Ramsay and Littlefinger and Freys ?

  12. #27692
    The Undying freefolk's Avatar
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    For Avatar/GOT fans.
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    Sing your death song like a hero coming home.

    -- Tecumseh

  13. #27693
    Quote Originally Posted by xcess View Post
    So you'll be fine if Sansa and Arya goes and slaughters people cos they already have a thirst for it with Ramsay and Littlefinger and Freys ?
    That's actually a very good comparison. Would anyone find it believable if Arya suddenly started massacring women and children? She has been ruthless in killing her victims aswell. But just as with Dany she has been shown to avoid hurting those she considers innocent.

  14. #27694
    Herald of the Titans Darththeo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xcess View Post
    he could just not respond to such accusations. People gonna get annoyed that he lied if it turns out it was true. People are gonna buy the books if they wanted them in the first place
    If he ignored them or stated "no comment" ... he would get bothered by questions, giving an answer is better than no response in this case.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vegas82 View Post
    Why would he have held off on releasing one book, let alone two?
    They literally gave a reason in the quote.
    Peace is a lie. There is only passion. Through passion I gain strength. Through strength I gain power.
    Through power I gain victory. Through victory my chains are broken. The Force shall set me free.
    –The Sith Code

  15. #27695
    Quote Originally Posted by Vegas82 View Post
    Can’t be that, he released a book during the show already. No shitstorm followed.
    The last Song of Ice and Fire book he put out was a couple months into the first season, they probably didn't even have an agreement to adapt the entire series at that point.

  16. #27696
    My entire pet peeve for the season is how easy, for a society so brutal as Westeros, everyone is willing to accept that Jon Snow is the legitimate heir. Because, I have a scoop here, bastards pretending that their mothers had been wed legally but secretely can be counted by dozens for Earth kingdoms (that's why most medieval states had banns of wedding ?, that is the wedding had to be announced to be legal)

  17. #27697
    The Lightbringer Frontenac's Avatar
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    An interesting analysis of Daenerys' character made one month ago:




    This one made after episode 5 is not bad either, although it sounds more improvised:

    "Je vous répondrai par la bouche de mes canons!"

  18. #27698
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    You have her say "I'll burn your city to the ground" in Season 2, and in Season 8, she . . . burns a city to the ground. That's how it works.
    This is a stupid argument.

    If she didn't get into Qarth, she literally dies. She would literally say anything to get in.

    I don't remember innocents being a threat to her and her followers lives.

  19. #27699
    Again, short of the dragon, Daenerys is not particulary ruthless by medieval Earth standards in her dealings with a city that refused to surrender

  20. #27700
    Anung un Rama Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sarahtasher View Post
    My entire pet peeve for the season is how easy, for a society so brutal as Westeros, everyone is willing to accept that Jon Snow is the legitimate heir. Because, I have a scoop here, bastards pretending that their mothers had been wed legally but secretely can be counted by dozens for Earth kingdoms (that's why most medieval states had banns of wedding ?, that is the wedding had to be announced to be legal)
    Clearly didn't pay attention for a couple episodes there, did you?

    Sam found the official records of the wedding, the equivalent of the very banns you're talking about. They weren't public, but as they were between noble houses, they were notarized by the maesters and made part of the official record.

    Plus, at this point, who's left? Sansa's probably the only major political power left standing, but even she doesn't have much of an army left to her name. Jon's brought people together and united them, he's proven himself in battle, the records support his claim, not just as a Targaryen but also as a Stark.

    There's also quite likely the "oh god Daenerys died and Drogon's going nuts and oh look the one remaining Targaryen's got the dragon back under control let's not fuck with the Dragon King any more" factor.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ablock87 View Post
    This is a stupid argument.

    If she didn't get into Qarth, she literally dies. She would literally say anything to get in.

    I don't remember innocents being a threat to her and her followers lives.
    I really don't see what your point is.

    It's clear foreshadowing, which is all I was saying there. Do you not understand what "foreshadowing" is?

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