[TV/Books] Game of Thrones ***SPOILER Discussion***

[sarahtasher]

My entire pet peeve for the season is how easy, for a society so brutal as Westeros, everyone is willing to accept that Jon Snow is the legitimate heir. Because, I have a scoop here, bastards pretending that their mothers had been wed legally but secretely can be counted by dozens for Earth kingdoms (that's why most medieval states had banns of wedding ?, that is the wedding had to be announced to be legal)

[Frontenac]

An interesting analysis of Daenerys' character made one month ago:




This one made after episode 5 is not bad either, although it sounds more improvised:

[ablock87]

You have her say "I'll burn your city to the ground" in Season 2, and in Season 8, she . . . burns a city to the ground. That's how it works.

This is a stupid argument.

If she didn't get into Qarth, she literally dies. She would literally say anything to get in.

I don't remember innocents being a threat to her and her followers lives.

[sarahtasher]

Again, short of the dragon, Daenerys is not particulary ruthless by medieval Earth standards in her dealings with a city that refused to surrender

[Endus]

My entire pet peeve for the season is how easy, for a society so brutal as Westeros, everyone is willing to accept that Jon Snow is the legitimate heir. Because, I have a scoop here, bastards pretending that their mothers had been wed legally but secretely can be counted by dozens for Earth kingdoms (that's why most medieval states had banns of wedding ?, that is the wedding had to be announced to be legal)

Clearly didn't pay attention for a couple episodes there, did you?

Sam found the official records of the wedding, the equivalent of the very banns you're talking about. They weren't public, but as they were between noble houses, they were notarized by the maesters and made part of the official record.

Plus, at this point, who's left? Sansa's probably the only major political power left standing, but even she doesn't have much of an army left to her name. Jon's brought people together and united them, he's proven himself in battle, the records support his claim, not just as a Targaryen but also as a Stark.

There's also quite likely the "oh god Daenerys died and Drogon's going nuts and oh look the one remaining Targaryen's got the dragon back under control let's not fuck with the Dragon King any more" factor.

- - - Updated - - -

This is a stupid argument.

If she didn't get into Qarth, she literally dies. She would literally say anything to get in.

I don't remember innocents being a threat to her and her followers lives.

I really don't see what your point is.

It's clear foreshadowing, which is all I was saying there. Do you not understand what "foreshadowing" is?

[Shadowferal]

This is a stupid argument.
If she didn't get into Qarth, she literally dies. She would literally say anything to get in.
I don't remember innocents being a threat to her and her followers lives.

It's not too different from a parent threatening a child really.

[sarahtasher]

Clearly didn't pay attention for a couple episodes there, did you?

Sam found the official records of the wedding, the equivalent of the very banns you're talking about. They weren't public, but as they were between noble houses, they were notarized by the maesters and made part of the official record.

Plus, at this point, who's left? Sansa's probably the only major political power left standing, but even she doesn't have much of an army left to her name. Jon's brought people together and united them, he's proven himself in battle, the records support his claim, not just as a Targaryen but also as a Stark.

There's also quite likely the "oh god Daenerys died and Drogon's going nuts and oh look the one remaining Targaryen's got the dragon back under control let's not fuck with the Dragon King any more" factor.

- - - Updated - - -



I really don't see what your point is.

It's clear foreshadowing, which is all I was saying there. Do you not understand what "foreshadowing" is?

Yeah, the Duke of Monmouth had also completely legit records of him mother being wed to Charles II. Totally legit.

(That's what banns were by definition PUBLIC. (There is so such thing as a secret bann).

[IIamaKing]

Not to mention that little girl is probably still on Dragonstone.

And? Im sure thats like a 30 min walk now...right??

[Endus]

Yeah, the Duke of Monmouth had also completely legit records of him mother being wed to Charles II. Totally legit.

(That's what banns were by definition PUBLIC. (There is so such thing as a secret bann).

And that doesn't exist in Westeros. The Maesters were the record-keepers, effectively like notary publics are today.

[Jtbrig7390]

I love this...

[Jayma]

Foreshadowing is obviously only part of what it takes for a character's ultimate destination. You can say she hinted at this at the gates of Qarth in Season 2, but that doesn't mean killing every slave is Yunkai would have made any sense.

We must use recent events and contextual clues to determine if her actions are in a sense earned. I personally don't think they made enough effort or gave enough time for her choices to be justified.

[Elim Garak]

I personally don't think they made enough effort or gave enough time for her choices to be justified.

They did.
She lost one dragon and one close person to the NK to save people of Westeros
She lost another dragon - killed by people of Westeros
People of Westeros don't like her
People of Westeros executed another close person to her
People of Westeros in her circle of advisors have betrayed her
Suddenly she's not the rightful heir, but some Westeros bastard is, whom she loves and is an aunt to. His Westeros family doesn't like her.

All of the above is mostly from season 8, since you just wanted the recent events.

[eschatological]

Clearly didn't pay attention for a couple episodes there, did you?

Sam found the official records of the wedding, the equivalent of the very banns you're talking about. They weren't public, but as they were between noble houses, they were notarized by the maesters and made part of the official record.

Plus, at this point, who's left? Sansa's probably the only major political power left standing, but even she doesn't have much of an army left to her name. Jon's brought people together and united them, he's proven himself in battle, the records support his claim, not just as a Targaryen but also as a Stark.

There's also quite likely the "oh god Daenerys died and Drogon's going nuts and oh look the one remaining Targaryen's got the dragon back under control let's not fuck with the Dragon King any more" factor.

- - - Updated - - -



I really don't see what your point is.

It's clear foreshadowing, which is all I was saying there. Do you not understand what "foreshadowing" is?

Foreshadowing doesn't automatically "earn" the payoff though. It's just foreshadowing. An example from the books: The valonqar prophecy. That's foreshadowing. But if it's in book 2 or 3 or whatever, but then Cersei has a lovely, healthy, non-sexual relationship with both of her brothers, and then one day one of them goes apeshit and kills her, that foreshadowing doesn't justify the turn by the brother.

Instead, we slowly see how the prophecy infects Cersei, making her hate Tyrion (her projection on who her valonqar will be) from birth, and that poisons their relationship to the point that she accuses him of Joffrey's death despite not having any proof of it. From there, it's irredeemable. At the same time, Jaime (the other, secret candidate for valonqar) is starting to see her as a psycho bitch, and keeps straying further and further from her, until he breaks from her, while simultaneously finding himself drawn to her exact opposite in Brienne. If either of these brothers now kill Cersei, the foreshadowing is paid off, and you can say, "Yep, that foreshadowing worked."

In other words, the heel turn isn't post hoc, ergo prompter hoc by default because of the foreshadowing. It needs to be earned.

[Endus]

Foreshadowing doesn't automatically "earn" the payoff though. It's just foreshadowing.

I mean, I'm not arguing that Season 8's writing is good (or 7's, for that matter). It's way too rushed and they're forcing a hell of a lot because of that. This included. See also Tyrion being a sudden moron for several seasons, Bran being a useless lump of nothing, rushing Jaime's tragic failures so it just seems like they gave up on his arc, basically forgetting that the dire wolves exist and wishing Martin never wrote them in, etc. There's a lot to hate.

I'm just making the point that the premise of Daenerys turning out to be a brutal conquering tyrant was established all the way back in Season 2, in multiple ways. This is the culmination of that. A shitty, poorly-executed one, yes, but not one that's out of left field with no warning.

The latter is what I'm arguing against; the people who thought Dany was going to be the One True Saviour Who's Perfect And Goodness and Light. If you thought that, you were never paying much attention to subtext, because the subtext has been screaming the opposite since early days.

I fundamentally disagree with this being a "heel turn". She's been wrestling with this brutality all along, and she's finally decided to stop pretending to be any better than this.

[eschatological]

Oh, well, she was never gonna be the good guy. This thread has been conjecturing for years that she's Jon "The Prince That Was Promised" Snow's Nhissa Nhissa, and that the reason he'd push a sword through her heart is because she was fucking insane.


The point is that the heel turn was ridiculously unearned.

Edit: The problem is, now, that D&D have totally undone TPTWP and all prophecy except for the one where they think they're clever by showing snow and icicles in Dany's vision and calling it ash. So for Jon, a rigid character who never changes, to kill her despite loving her, she has to do some truly heinous shit.

[Jayma]

They did.
She lost one dragon and one close person to the NK to save people of Westeros
She lost another dragon - killed by people of Westeros
People of Westeros don't like her
People of Westeros executed another close person to her
People of Westeros in her circle of advisors have betrayed her
Suddenly she's not the rightful heir, but some Westeros bastard is, whom she loves and is an aunt to. His Westeros family doesn't like her.

All of the above is mostly from season 8, since you just wanted the recent events.

Why are we equating all the civilians of Westeros with so many individuals of power?
People not liking her is not a believable reason to kill all said people.
It's obvious she was angry, but she's been angry before. She's lost a dragon and people she's loved before.
It needs to be shown that this was enough for her to basically 180 her philosophy or enough for her to go crazy. in 2 episodes? Doubtful

- - - Updated - - -

Oh, well, she was never gonna be the good guy. This thread has been conjecturing for years that she's Jon "The Prince That Was Promised" Snow's Nhissa Nhissa, and that the reason he'd push a sword through her heart is because she was fucking insane.


The point is that the heel turn was ridiculously unearned.

Edit: The problem is, now, that D&D have totally undone TPTWP and all prophecy except for the one where they think they're clever by showing snow and icicles in Dany's vision and calling it ash. So for Jon, a rigid character who never changes, to kill her despite loving her, she has to do some truly heinous shit.

They pulled an Anakin Skywalker. Had to create a villain, but ran out of time. Used a drastic irredeemable act that didn't really fit the natural arc of the character (killing children with no real motivation).
In game of thrones case they also had to complete 2 other villain arcs within 4 episodes and it all comes together as rushed unsatisfying garbage.

[Budong]

She literally locked up her children for killing ONE child.
Don't tell me this was coming and we weren't paying attention.

It WAS coming and you WEREN'T paying attention.

- - - Updated - - -

I mean, I'm not arguing that Season 8's writing is good (or 7's, for that matter). It's way too rushed and they're forcing a hell of a lot because of that. This included. See also Tyrion being a sudden moron for several seasons, Bran being a useless lump of nothing, rushing Jaime's tragic failures so it just seems like they gave up on his arc, basically forgetting that the dire wolves exist and wishing Martin never wrote them in, etc. There's a lot to hate.

I'm just making the point that the premise of Daenerys turning out to be a brutal conquering tyrant was established all the way back in Season 2, in multiple ways. This is the culmination of that. A shitty, poorly-executed one, yes, but not one that's out of left field with no warning.

The latter is what I'm arguing against; the people who thought Dany was going to be the One True Saviour Who's Perfect And Goodness and Light. If you thought that, you were never paying much attention to subtext, because the subtext has been screaming the opposite since early days.

I fundamentally disagree with this being a "heel turn". She's been wrestling with this brutality all along, and she's finally decided to stop pretending to be any better than this.

Pretty much this.

[Logwyn]

All this been fixed if they had done 10 seasons!!

[-aiko-]

It has been mentioned quite a bit in this thread but not everybody is upset with the last episode because Mad Dany was unbelievable. It was just poorly written. That's basically how I feel about the entire season so far (and perhaps the last two seasons as well). I would be willing to accept every major plot point that has happened if the events leading up to them had time to actually fit together coherently. Instead they just felt rushed and, again, poorly written. They are sacrificing the writing for cinematic flair and it really shows. That's really where a lot of the complaints are coming from.

It's easy for a lot of people to suspend their disbelief and just enjoy the show for its extremely high quality. That's fine, but a lot of us were conditioned to expect more. The Winterfell battle is a great example of this. If you just focus on the action it is visually appealing and cool as hell. When you actually think about it, though, it's a truly awful battle. The tactics make no sense and it's hard to fear for the heroes when time and time again they are overwhelmed but the screen fades to black and they somehow got away.

Then you have the show ignoring its own rules from episode to episode. In one episode a handful of ballistas are able to take down a dragon with relative ease. In the very next episode, the ballistas have literally no effect on the dragon because the episode demanded Dany burn down the entire city with it. It's fucking silly.

[Th3Scourge]

I wanted Dany to end up at this point but the way we got here has been a clusterfuck of terrible writing. In one episode the Iron Fleet is using an aimbot on one dragon but can't touch the other coming head on, and in another episode the iron fleet is as useless as tits on a bull, fires like 2 bolts in total and get destroyed in a matter of seconds. I miss this show having consequences for the characters. Now their plot armor is so thick they are immune to everything.

- - - Updated - - -

It has been mentioned quite a bit in this thread but not everybody is upset with the last episode because Mad Dany was unbelievable. It was just poorly written. That's basically how I feel about the entire season so far (and perhaps the last two seasons as well). I would be willing to accept every major plot point that has happened if the events leading up to them had time to actually fit together coherently. Instead they just felt rushed and, again, poorly written. They are sacrificing the writing for cinematic flair and it really shows. That's really where a lot of the complaints are coming from.

It's easy for a lot of people to suspend their disbelief and just enjoy the show for its extremely high quality. That's fine, but a lot of us were conditioned to expect more. The Winterfell battle is a great example of this. If you just focus on the action it is visually appealing and cool as hell. When you actually think about it, though, it's a truly awful battle. The tactics make no sense and it's hard to fear for the heroes when time and time again they are overwhelmed but the screen fades to black and they somehow got away.

Then you have the show ignoring its own rules from episode to episode. In one episode a handful of ballistas are able to take down a dragon with relative ease. In the very next episode, the ballistas have literally no effect on the dragon because the episode demanded Dany burn down the entire city with it. It's fucking silly.

It's a real shame that you can tell the writers just gave up on telling the story and just wanted to get it over and done with. Potentially the greatest tv show ever created has been reduced to something like this