[TV/Books] Game of Thrones ***SPOILER Discussion***

[RobertoCarlos]

I don't see how anyone can look at and defend Littlefinger's actions with his precious Sansa (essentially giving her up to a known sadist to be raped over and over again), who he obsesses over in the book, which is what prompts a much more subtlle awakening in Sansa of her cunning tactics. Like, the minute he was like, "Yeah, I'm gonna openly marry you to Ramsay Bolton even though you've been on the run for the suspected murder of Joffrey," I knew the show was fucking done and dusted. It doesn't make sense for him personally, or politically.

Of course, the show ended for me with Arya Terminator-running through the streets of Braavos, getting stabbed in the gut, falling into a dirty canal, and being fine the next day, and then Jaqen being like "lol I guess you're one of us now and can't even be detected again." And that was s5.....coincidentally where the last books leave off (IE, with Arya blind in the House of Black and White).

yeah the books were character driven and their choices while often surprising still made sense for the character.

D&D abandoned that because they needed a villain for the season so it was Ramsey. Who can we give to Ramsey to make him more of a threat? The starks.

[eschatological]

yeah the books were character driven and their choices while often surprising still made sense for the character.

D&D abandoned that because they needed a villain for the season so it was Ramsey. Who can we give to Ramsey to make him more of a threat? The starks.

I mean, it was set up already beautifully in the books. Ramsay with his fake-Arya wife. I don't know if Littlefinger pulling Ramsay's strings was part of "D&D's outline they got from GRRM," but I find it hard to believe he'd ever let Ramsay lay a finger on Sansa, who is posing as his bastard daughter in the books. If that was an intended idea for LF to manipulate Ramsay, it would be to kill Stannis and then get Ramsay killed too, so the Starks (beholden to him) could take Winterfall back for themselves. And then they'd slowly have to figure out how he was playing them.

[Xorzor]

Are the two losers who ruined the last two seasons of GoT also onboard for this prequel, or have they been wisely removed from touching it?

[Xorzor]

D&D are not involved in House of the Dragon.

Music to my ears. I look forward to checking out this prequel now.

[cubby]

Are the two losers who ruined the last two seasons of GoT also onboard for this prequel, or have they been wisely removed from touching it?

I see people posting things like this - I see writers desperate for readers pushing out what some want to hear. With respect, it cracks me up. The reasons for people disliking the last two seasons seem trivial at this point, compared with what D&D left as their legacy - possibly the greatest television series ever created.

I'm rewatching the series from the beginning, and the ending rings truer now with every episode that replays. The ending was fantastic, true to the story lines of all the main characters.

I think what people really don't like is that the ending they got (that George RR Martin told D&D of, remember) wasn't the one they wanted, and because of that they channel their bitterness into finding slights with the show. "Too rushed"; "should have taken longer"; "wasn't true to the characters" - all critiques leveled at the ending. And all wholly without merit.

The truth is that great series endings always upset some people - it would be almost impossible to say everyone can be happy with a great series' ending (I know of only one great series that ended well, without hardly a word in disfavor). And so we see with the critiques (if they can be called that) of the story D&D gave us. Desperate cries because those people didn't get what they wanted. But they did get what they deserved.

And the world got a terrific show with a fantastic ending.

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Apparently Benioff specified the Night King needed to be stabbed in the same spot where the dragonglass had been pushed into his chest. That's something nobody knew (apparently not even the NK himself). So yeah, it was pure dumb luck that Arya stabbed him in his one weak spot after getting caught. And yeah, they could have written it a million different ways, but the one they picked was "Arya appears out of nowhere, with no knowledge about how to kill the Night King or what would even happen to the other White Walkers, but gets super lucky and everything goes her way anyway".

That's because you're watching it through the eyes of the book, rather than the show. Viewing the show without the benefit of the books, Arya's killing of the Night King was perfect, even using the move she showcased to Brienne. Your rendition of the "one they picked" was true to the story line they laid out in the show.

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.... or maybe it was just all for shock value to give Arya her moment, who knows.

Her killing the NK was perfect. "What do we say to death? Not today". Death was at the doorstep of the living, if Winterfell had fallen, the world of men would have died. And her story line was epic, even her ending with the Hound and which path she chose to take was perfect.

[Adamas102]

That's because you're watching it through the eyes of the book, rather than the show. Viewing the show without the benefit of the books, Arya's killing of the Night King was perfect, even using the move she showcased to Brienne. Your rendition of the "one they picked" was true to the story line they laid out in the show.

What is that even supposed to mean? It's bad storytelling either way. Having this supernatural villain that you've been building up for 8 seasons, and then offing them with a character that has had nothing to do with that storyline using a mundane stabbing action that was only "hinted at" 6 episodes earlier is SHITTY STORYTELLING. Doesn't matter whether you're talking about books or shows.

[cubby]

What is that even supposed to mean? It's bad storytelling either way. Having this supernatural villain that you've been building up for 8 seasons, and then offing them with a character that has had nothing to do with that storyline using a mundane stabbing action that was only "hinted at" 6 episodes earlier is SHITTY STORYTELLING. Doesn't matter whether you're talking about books or shows.

No, it's not. You just don't like it, which is why you're doing what you're doing.

Game of Thrones is all about the turn you didn't see coming. The plot twists that made us love it from the start, and that continued throughout the entire series. Arya was built up for the entire series as a serious killer of all things - and the final kill, the toughest kill in the land, is hers - and it's even true to her "words", what do we say to death? not today.

I would wager that combing back through this thread we'll see dozens of "issues" you have with the series. The above is just one more excuse in a line of many where you create an issue because you didn't like how it played out. That's fine - that is, in fact, your absolute right as a viewer and a fan. And I would even wager that if I had read the books first I might have some critiques of my own. But you and your audience have to keep in mind that Martin told D&D the ending, which he has yet to even write, and they played out the series in their illustrious fashion, just as they started it.

You ask "what does that even mean"? And I tell you that watching the story through the eyes of just the series, without the benefit of the book, makes Arya's killing of the Night King epic, and a perfect ending to that chapter. The only other character that fit would have been Jon, and possibly Daenerys. But those two had other epic endings to be hatched. Arya's story, except for setting aside her "list" and not dying as a common killer (as the Hound helped her discover), ended there.

And it was terrific.

[Lindon]

The last season was shit and that's that.

No amount of fanboyism is ever going to change that.

[Muxtar]

The last season was shit and that's that.

No amount of fanboyism is ever going to change that.

This. Pretty much this.

/closethread

[Adamas102]

No, it's not. You just don't like it, which is why you're doing what you're doing.

Game of Thrones is all about the turn you didn't see coming. The plot twists that made us love it from the start, and that continued throughout the entire series. Arya was built up for the entire series as a serious killer of all things - and the final kill, the toughest kill in the land, is hers - and it's even true to her "words", what do we say to death? not today.

That's not what GoT is about at all. Well, that's what Benioff and Weiss turned it into when they ran out of material and the only thing they could come up with was subverting expectations, but that's not what iconic, shocking moments like Ned's execution and the Red Wedding are meant to be. The books (and remember, the show was very true to the books for the first few seasons) are character driven narratives in a world that's grounded in reality with hints of fantasy seeping in, where violence is common and plot armor is not. GRRM didn't write over 4,000 pages just to go "HA! You weren't expecting THAT!" once per book.

And no, Arya was not built up to be some super assassin or a "serious killer of all things". Before heading to join the Faceless Men she killed a kid by accident, and finished off a man that the Hound had already pummeled. She spent a relatively short amount of time in training, almost got herself killed (twice), and then decided to quit and go home. She's much more badass in the books (the show did away with her warging abilities) and even still the training is too hard on her there.

The show definitely turned her into more of a superhero than she's meant to be, almost certainly just because she was a fan favorite character. She won't be killing off all the Freys in the books because another character is already doing that long before she has even left Braavos. Even in the very same episode where she kills the Night King, there is a pretty good scene of her avoiding wights in the library. She uses her ability to move quickly and silently using her surroundings for cover, but she's bloodied and scared and more importantly human. She has to use bookshelves and tables to hide, and throw books to cause a diversion. Her skills in that scene feel grounded for a small, nimble, and resourceful character who spent SOME time training with assassins, but then she goes from that to essentially turning into air to bypass a throng of wights and white walkers in order to make a flying stab attack at the Night King (of course her approach is all off screen because we're never given any indication that she could do something like that).

I happily watched the show for the first several season even knowing about all the characters I liked that were left out. I understand having to trim down source material in order to adapt a story. I really like the character of Arya, in fact she's one of my favorites (both in the books and for the first half of the show). However, her turn from traumatized child to super assassin isn't one I buy, and I'm 99% sure GRRM isn't going to play it out that way. I don't think Arya killing the Night King was epic because it felt unearned. She was on her own personal quest, and dropping into Jon's personal quest at the very end in order to gank his big bad and leave him with nothing to do for the last few episodes just compounded what a terrible decision it was to have her kill the Night King.

[Koriani]

No, it's not. You just don't like it, which is why you're doing what you're doing.
....
And it was terrific.

No, its not. You just like it, which is why you're doing what you're doing.

See how pointless that is?

Guess what - you are both right. Because you both have an opinion of the show that is yours. You can love the show, including the last season. That other person can love (or hate) the show and not like the last season. And you are BOTH right.

And other people hate the show and never watched it. And they are right too, for themselves.

That's how opinion's work.

Discuss why you feel the last season worked with the show - that's fine. And then you'll get why people didn't like the last season - which is also fine (if its not fine then don't bother to post...)

But trying to say they are wrong and you are right - is the stupid part. And will only leave you saying these same things in circles over and over again. They are opinions - yours are not 'more right' than theirs anymore than theirs is 'more right' than yours. They are both equally correct - they are both the truth of your OWN realities.

And a real issue -
And why does the forum say there are like 7 more pages of posts but I can't get past this current page??! Every time I click on a higher page number I get this same page over and over again. Did 7 pages of posts just get deleted or something? *confusion* LOL!

[cubby]

That's not what GoT is about at all. Well, that's what Benioff and Weiss turned it into when they ran out of material and the only thing they could come up with was subverting expectations, but that's not what iconic, shocking moments like Ned's execution and the Red Wedding are meant to be. The books (and remember, the show was very true to the books for the first few seasons) are character driven narratives in a world that's grounded in reality with hints of fantasy seeping in, where violence is common and plot armor is not. GRRM didn't write over 4,000 pages just to go "HA! You weren't expecting THAT!" once per book.

When they ran out of material? They had all the existing material possible, including input from GRRM post-published books, as well as the literal ending. You're saying shocking moments that happened are ok so long as they happened in the books, but once there weren't books to pull from, any shocking moments were bad. That's a little disingenuous. What shocking events or "turns" did you feel were unjustified or unearned?

The series is not what you describe as the books - GoT The Series is a world of dragons and magic in which grounded people move and die in. That world is slowly introduced to us through the events that reveal the magic that was always there (dragons born, Khal "living" with black magic, The Lord of Light; the list goes on and on). It's a fantastic world that GRRM created, and D&D stay true to that world through the entire series, including closing out the unwritten books because GRRM was [understandably] caught up in fame and fortune and couldn't be bothered to finish the last two books (which probably won't ever be published, let's be honest here).
GRRM:

"I need to finish WINDS, and then maybe write another Dunk & Egg novella, and then get right into A DREAM OF SPRING, and in between edit some more Wild Cards books. Once more into the breach, dear friends… Westeros beckons."
-March 2021

Winds and Spring are never going to see the light of day. He's been "working on it" for years now, but has too many other projects going on to finish it. And frankly, I can't blame him - he's a victim of his own success, but that's another discussion altogether. He actually hasn't put out a new GOT book since the series premiered. Dance of Dragons came out in 2011, but that means in the publishing world, it was already complete at least a year before.

And no, Arya was not built up to be some super assassin or a "serious killer of all things". Before heading to join the Faceless Men she killed a kid by accident, and finished off a man that the Hound had already pummeled. She spent a relatively short amount of time in training, almost got herself killed (twice), and then decided to quit and go home. She's much more badass in the books (the show did away with her warging abilities) and even still the training is too hard on her there.
The show definitely turned her into more of a superhero than she's meant to be, almost certainly just because she was a fan favorite character. She won't be killing off all the Freys in the books because another character is already doing that long before she has even left Braavos. Even in the very same episode where she kills the Night King, there is a pretty good scene of her avoiding wights in the library. She uses her ability to move quickly and silently using her surroundings for cover, but she's bloodied and scared and more importantly human. She has to use bookshelves and tables to hide, and throw books to cause a diversion. Her skills in that scene feel grounded for a small, nimble, and resourceful character who spent SOME time training with assassins, but then she goes from that to essentially turning into air to bypass a throng of wights and white walkers in order to make a flying stab attack at the Night King (of course her approach is all off screen because we're never given any indication that she could do something like that).

She certainly was built up as a badass assassin in the series. Remember her list of people she intended to kill? And you're forgetting to mention the people she killed while training with the Faceless Men. The build up of her badassness is solid in the series, at least to those of us who didn't read the books. You might be comparing the two and thinking the series wasn't enough, but I'm here to tell you it was - her path to assassin was well documented, and slowly built up, over years.

The show played her up more because they had to collapse story lines to fit it into an already long series. That's understandable when each book is it's own tome of 800+ pages, an almost impossible length to bring to bear in a series, even if each book is a 10 series chapters (and I love long books, don't get me wrong - this isn't a criticism of length, just a reminder that things almost had to get cut given the volume of material GRRM gave us). IIRC, she took on a couple of events to make the storyline more cohesive, give one character more depth rather than bring in yet another character to build up when there wasn't time to do so.

And frankly, the Fray slaughter was absolutely fantastic opening, and perfectly justified given her Faceless abilities.

And we are given an indication that she can approach a target stealthily, when she was blind and could operate in the dark, during her final test for the Faceless Men. And she showcased the move that killed the NK to Brienne when they sparred.

I happily watched the show for the first several season even knowing about all the characters I liked that were left out. I understand having to trim down source material in order to adapt a story. I really like the character of Arya, in fact she's one of my favorites (both in the books and for the first half of the show). However, her turn from traumatized child to super assassin isn't one I buy, and I'm 99% sure GRRM isn't going to play it out that way. I don't think Arya killing the Night King was epic because it felt unearned. She was on her own personal quest, and dropping into Jon's personal quest at the very end in order to gank his big bad and leave him with nothing to do for the last few episodes just compounded what a terrible decision it was to have her kill the Night King.

I too enjoyed the character Arya - although she wasn't even close to my favorite. IMO her characters turn to badass assassin was completely justified, almost from the beginning, even in the first season, she was being built up as a killer - a warrior of sorts (practicing sword fighting with the Dancing Master for instance, or shooting a bow in Winterfell). Taking sword lessons, killing someone at such a young age, and standing up for herself even as she was being dragged to Castle Black after watching her father beheaded. You're saying she was playing the traumatized child - but she really wasn't, ever - outside her watching her father die.

All the pieces are there to justify each main character's ending, and I completely understand that some people weren't happy with the ending (or in particular some character's ending), but from a "I only watched the series and didn't read the books" the ending was terrific. Each main character was true to themselves up until the very end.

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No, its not. You just like it, which is why you're doing what you're doing.

See how pointless that is?

Guess what - you are both right. Because you both have an opinion of the show that is yours. You can love the show, including the last season. That other person can love (or hate) the show and not like the last season. And you are BOTH right.

And other people hate the show and never watched it. And they are right too, for themselves.

That's how opinion's work.

Discuss why you feel the last season worked with the show - that's fine. And then you'll get why people didn't like the last season - which is also fine (if its not fine then don't bother to post...)

But trying to say they are wrong and you are right - is the stupid part. And will only leave you saying these same things in circles over and over again. They are opinions - yours are not 'more right' than theirs anymore than theirs is 'more right' than yours. They are both equally correct - they are both the truth of your OWN realities.

And a real issue -
And why does the forum say there are like 7 more pages of posts but I can't get past this current page??! Every time I click on a higher page number I get this same page over and over again. Did 7 pages of posts just get deleted or something? *confusion* LOL!

You make a good point, one that I also mentioned in mine. Opinions are great, and they are all our own, neither right nor wrong. However (you knew that was coming), when people say the ending was "wrong" or somehow didn't stay true to characters, then we can have a sort of discussion - there is room for a kind of right/wrong there.

And a real issue -
And why does the forum say there are like 7 more pages of posts but I can't get past this current page??! Every time I click on a higher page number I get this same page over and over again. Did 7 pages of posts just get deleted or something? *confusion* LOL!

Yeah - seeing the same thing, really weird.

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There’s a new series coming out (House of the Dragon). We’re going to be discussing that here.

Shouldn't we have a separate thread for that series?

I don't think this thread should be closed - why do you @Muxtar?

[Twdft]

Game of Thrones is all about the turn you didn't see coming. The plot twists that made us love it from the start, and that continued throughout the entire series.

All of them were telegraphed way in advance. I've read the available books about 4 times and find something new every time. Jorah Mormont being a spy is revealed on like page 120 of the first book and I think episode 5 of the first series. And still a lot of people were surprised by it later on, including me.

[Isilrien]

...You make a good point, one that I also mentioned in mine. Opinions are great, and they are all our own, neither right nor wrong. However (you knew that was coming), when people say the ending was "wrong" or somehow didn't stay true to characters, then we can have a sort of discussion - there is room for a kind of right/wrong there...

A show/book/movie/play has no "kind" of right or wrong; it's not science or morality. It's all subjective and thus based on opinion, no matter what words are used in expressing that opinion.

[Beazy]

Desperate cries because those people didn't get what they wanted. But they did get what they deserved.

That's not where the real hate comes from. The hate comes from the comically rushed last two seasons, with the last season being so utterly fucking rushed that it was comical.

The last two seasons were like 12 episodes total. We needed, at the bare minimum, 10 seasons, and 20 - 30 more episodes to tell that story correctly.

*Edit*
The way things happened were awesome, Ill admit that, but the speed that they happened was not GoT speed.

[Karlz0rz]

Just thinking of GoT after that last season of the show, makes me angry. Like legit angry :P.
I can't believe how bad that season is... Remember that white horse scene with Arya? They spent what, 15 minutes on it? The next episode, it's just gone.
Like, I honestly think the producers all had a group case of strokes, and accidentally produced that grabage.

I'll check out the new shows coming out, but season 7/8 of GoT literally killed the show for me. Season 1-5 were sooo good... Why did you have to kill it, why?!

[cubby]

That's not where the real hate comes from. The hate comes from the comically rushed last two seasons, with the last season being so utterly fucking rushed that it was comical.

The last two seasons were like 12 episodes total. We needed, at the bare minimum, 10 seasons, and 20 - 30 more episodes to tell that story correctly.

*Edit*
The way things happened were awesome, Ill admit that, but the speed that they happened was not GoT speed.

I think that's the biggest complaint I've heard/seen - that the last two seasons were rushed. I'm not sure 10 seasons would have been called for, but at least seasons 7 & 8 having a full 10 episodes. Keep in mind D&D had no published material to work from - they had the notes from GRRM but nothing like the rich base of material that came from the books.

I agree with you that it was fantastic how it played out, and who wouldn't want more of that - right?

[Shurkien]

Am I the only one who lost all interest in the franchise just because of the series?

I really loved the books and S1-6 but man.. season 8 just outright killed everything for me

Was there ever a explanation by D&D why they did the show dirty? They could give it to another showrunner who still has motivation. It just makes me sad.

I know there are interviews in which HBO staff told us that they wanted up to 12 seasons if they have to

[cubby]

A show/book/movie/play has no "kind" of right or wrong; it's not science or morality. It's all subjective and thus based on opinion, no matter what words are used in expressing that opinion.

Sure it does. Being true to the character is one of those right/wrong items. For instance, Jamie returning to Cersei at the end, even if was to knowingly die with her, was absolutely "right". As was his leaving her to fight in the north - because he kept his oath to Daenerys. Both of those actions were justified by the history of the character, their actions and words and deeds.

Opinions are legion in shows/books/movies/plays, but there are also right/wrong conclusions to be drawn, and discussions to be had about them.

[cubby]

Am I the only one who lost all interest in the franchise just because of the series?

I really loved the books and S1-6 but man.. season 8 just outright killed everything for me

Was there ever a explanation by D&D why they did the show dirty? They could give it to another showrunner who still has motivation. It just makes me sad.

I know there are interviews in which HBO staff told us that they wanted up to 12 seasons if they have to

Well, since they didn't do the show dirty, there really isn't an explanation for it. Who cares what some HBO staff thought there was going to be? D&D were the show runners, and they did it right, all the way up until the end.

And interestingly, seasons 7 & 8 were only about 100 minutes shorter than the previous 6. Still less, of course.