[TV/Books] Game of Thrones ***SPOILER Discussion***

[Biomega]

I think the best you could say about Bran as king, though, is that he might be detached from reality/humankind in a Dr. Manhattan-esque way, and that might lead to a bunch of bad shit happening under his watch because he's already seen it and deems it "inevitable."

Though that also runs into the same Dr. Manhattan problems. I.e. either he could have stopped it and didn't because he thought it's better that way - so it's not actually a bad thing (we just think it is because we can't see the big picture). Or he couldn't have changed anything because what will be will be - in which case why blame him (nothing he could have done would have changed it).

[Infinity Cubed]

Though that also runs into the same Dr. Manhattan problems. I.e. either he could have stopped it and didn't because he thought it's better that way - so it's not actually a bad thing (we just think it is because we can't see the big picture). Or he couldn't have changed anything because what will be will be - in which case why blame him (nothing he could have done would have changed it).

Except we see him change things. He's even quite surprised when he discovers he can, and despite his predecessors warnings. Nevermind his ability to just share/not share certain information, and generally using his powers to manipulate events in his favor by doing any of those things.

If he were truly detached from reality and didn't care to lead, he simply would have declined the position. He didn't. He gladly and willingly took it in the "no no, well okay if you insist" sort of way.

He's the defacto big bad of the show, and most likely will be in the books, too. Just with Martin doing a better job of portraying it than the two numb nuts.

[eschatological]

I'd be very surprised if Bran ends up king in the books. It's such a poor ending that I have a hard time believing that it was part of the outline GRRM gave them when he stopped working on set and writing an episode a season. My hunch is that D&D got to the point that they wanted to subvert expectations (they basically said this in an interview about Arya killing the Night King) and not put Tyrion or Jon on the throne to do so. Tyrion's whole line of "Who has the most interesting story?" is such a typical D&D line too - cause 1) it's not true, Bran has nowhere near the most interesting story, and 2) it reeks of the arrogance those two had in presenting a flourish essentially saying "Aha! we tricked you, THIS is the interesting character!"

I do agree though that Bran changes things - you can see that in what I call "the Hold the Door conundrum" - but there's a question about whether the 3ER hasn't always been meddling in things towards some fatalistic end-goal. IE, because he sees backwards and forwards through time, his hand is forced in some means to perform his part - IE, Hodor always had to become Hodor - otherwise the world falls apart (IE, the 3ER dies if Hodor doesn't hold the door).

That could make for an interesting story where Bran is a *reluctant* bad guy though. He knows the shape of things to come and his role in them, and even though he doesn't want to, he does bad shit because of some end so far beyond the scope of the other character's lives that they cannot and will never understand his actions.

[Finlandia WOAT]

I'd be very surprised if Bran ends up king in the books. It's such a poor ending that I have a hard time believing that it was part of the outline GRRM gave them when he stopped working on set and writing an episode a season. My hunch is that D&D got to the point that they wanted to subvert expectations (they basically said this in an interview about Arya killing the Night King) and not put Tyrion or Jon on the throne to do so. Tyrion's whole line of "Who has the most interesting story?" is such a typical D&D line too - cause 1) it's not true, Bran has nowhere near the most interesting story, and 2) it reeks of the arrogance those two had in presenting a flourish essentially saying "Aha! we tricked you, THIS is the interesting character!"
).

I agree with Bran as King. Every other plot point one could see as feasible to the character if underdeveloped. Bran as king makes no sense.

Jon Snow as king after killing Dany- a position he never wanted, Tryrion as Hand after murdering his entire family (thereby never getting their respect) and being labeled kinslayer, Bran as master of whispers- that makes sense. Fits GRRM's promised "bittersweet" ending.

[Varodoc]

I agree with Bran as King. Every other plot point one could see as feasible to the character if underdeveloped. Bran as king makes no sense.

Jon Snow as king after killing Dany- a position he never wanted, Tryrion as Hand after murdering his entire family (thereby never getting their respect) and being labeled kinslayer, Bran as master of whispers- that makes sense. Fits GRRM's promised "bittersweet" ending.

The Unsullied and Dothraki would never allow Jon Snow to become King. Not giving him the crown was a smart move to avoid another war between the Six Kingdoms and the remaining Daenerys' followers. In the end, they left Westeros peacefully only because Jon was sentenced to life exile beyond the Wall.

Bran as King makes sense. He is omniscient and eternal, he was the enemy of the God of Death for eons. Unlike all his predecessors, he is wise, cautious, and not at all ambitious or greedy. What doesn't make sense is the motivation given by Tyrion, who cares if he has the """"""best story"""""? The mere fact that he is supernatural makes him a good candidate for the crown.

Remember how the Seven Kingdoms were plunged into civil war because of Littlefinger's lies and deceits? The Six Kingdoms will never go through that again, because if some manipulative liar like LF ever appears again, King Bran will just expose his ass and have him executed. With the omniscient Three-Eyed Raven as king, the risk of civil war in the kingdoms has been reduced drastically.

[RobertoCarlos]

The Unsullied and Dothraki would never allow Jon Snow to become King. Not giving him the crown was a smart move to avoid another war between the Six Kingdoms and the remaining Daenerys' followers. In the end, they left Westeros peacefully only because Jon was sentenced to life exile beyond the Wall.

Bran as King makes sense. He is omniscient and eternal, he was the enemy of the God of Death for eons. Unlike all his predecessors, he is wise, cautious, and not at all ambitious or greedy. What doesn't make sense is the motivation given by Tyrion, who cares if he has the """"""best story"""""? The mere fact that he is supernatural makes him a good candidate for the crown.

Remember how the Seven Kingdoms were plunged into civil war because of Littlefinger's lies and deceits? The Six Kingdoms will never go through that again, because if some manipulative liar like LF ever appears again, King Bran will just expose his ass and have him executed. With the omniscient Three-Eyed Raven as king, the risk of civil war in the kingdoms has been reduced drastically.

Yeah if a alien from space landed that could read the future we'd make it president.

No.

Game of thrones was at its best when it was based in real world logic being symbolic for real world countries/events and then it mixed in fantasy/mythology elements to heighten the stakes for dramatic effect.

[Varodoc]

Yeah if a alien from space landed that could read the future we'd make it president.

No.

Game of thrones was at its best when it was based in real world logic being symbolic for real world countries/events and then it mixed in fantasy/mythology elements to heighten the stakes for dramatic effect.

As far as the lords and masses are concerned, Bran is just a crippled boy.

They do not know that he is the Three-Eyed Raven. The masses don't even know what a White Walker is, since they never made it South. The masses don't know about anything magical. In s7, the entire regime of Cersei didn't even know what a wight is.

So if we randomly came across a completely human boy, who can predict and foretell the future and shows extraordinary wisdom? Yes, we'd probably pay attention to him.

Bran was made "president" because every major claimant to the throne was killed and most of the Council was made up of Starks and their allies, so of course they'll elect a Stark as king.

[eschatological]

The Unsullied and Dothraki would of course not let Jon be King.

But in the books, I doubt the Unsullied and Dothraki make it to King's Landing, let alone siege and take it over. There's a whole subplot (well, several) involving Dorne and the False Dragon or whatever they call them that I think leads to an internecine war between Dany and the southern kingdoms, and where Varys's main plans come to fruition (in the show he was very much neutered - pun SUPER intended). I think that'll be the main thrust of driving Dany mad - losing everything she literally spent years on to a heir with a lesser claim, just because people "liked" her less. Dany has a strong urge to be loved in both books and show, and not being loved makes her very angry.

So I think it's easily Jon on the throne. He's the Prince that was Promised, and he'll have to thrust his blade into her heart to fulfill some Red Priest's prophecy or something. I don't know exactly how their paths entwine in the books, but he'll have to end her.

[Varodoc]

Jon Snow doesn't want the crown, that's why he's not fit to lead the Six Kingdoms. Tyrion and Varys believed he'd be a good king precisely because he doesn't want to rule, but that's 100% BS. Just look at Garrosh Hellscream. He didn't want to rule, and indeed he ended up being a garbage ruler who had to be put down.

Bran is not power-hungry, but apparently he knew/foresaw that he would be needed to take the crown, and so he made for a better candidate than Jon, who never wanted to rule.

I'm pretty sure most people aren't really angry that Bran was chosen over Jon, it's just the "who has a better story" line that is objectively trash, because Bran's story wasn't interesting at all. So much so that he was AFK for an entire season. So maybe if that line was cut and a different motivation was given, King Bran would have been better received by the fandom.

Even though it makes perfect sense (from a practical standpoint) to place the omniscient supernatural demigod in charge of the kingdoms.

[RobertoCarlos]

As far as the lords and masses are concerned, Bran is just a crippled boy.

They do not know that he is the Three-Eyed Raven. The masses don't even know what a White Walker is, since they never made it South. The masses don't know about anything magical. In s7, the entire regime of Cersei didn't even know what a wight is.

So if we randomly came across a completely human boy, who can predict and foretell the future and shows extraordinary wisdom? Yes, we'd probably pay attention to him.

Bran was made "president" because every major claimant to the throne was killed and most of the Council was made up of Starks and their allies, so of course they'll elect a Stark as king.

K ignoring all the magic time travelling stuff.

The same Starks that declared the north separate from the kingdom thanks to Sansa?

Those starks should be rulers for everyone?

None of it makes any sense.

[Varodoc]

K ignoring all the magic time travelling stuff.

That none of the other lords or the masses know anything about.

The same Starks that declared the north separate from the kingdom thanks to Sansa?

Those starks should be rulers for everyone?

It might not be fair for the other major houses.

But it's better than starting yet another civil war over who gets control of what's left of the kingdoms.

Now that Bran is King, the Six Kingdoms can begin rebuilding.

[RobertoCarlos]

That none of the other lords or the masses know anything about.



It might not be fair for the other major houses.

But it's better than starting yet another civil war over who gets control of what's left of the kingdoms.

I get your point that someone who could "out" the littlefingers of the world would be an effective leader but my point is, that isnt human behaviour.

People would fear a super power not bow to them. Its the same concept as making superman president. Sounds great right? Well thats all well and good until things that superpower deem illegal like smoking or jay walking and punishment is death is now the new normal and there is no counter point to that level of power.

You say the masses wouldnt know, and yeah ole 1 tooth Jenny at the Tavern isnt gonna care outside of tavern talk and the odd song is all they get their information from but the lords and ladies would certaintly notice something was up with Robot Bran and eventually that shit would get out

[RobertoCarlos]

Massive face palm moment here. Have you heard of the Targaryens?

Yeah because people voted them into power and not because they took it by force with game changing dragons.

[RobertoCarlos]

Roflmao. Nope. Not even close. Remind us all what Aegon’s title was again? The elected? No? Shit, it was the Conqueror?

Start a sentence again with "Roflmao" and im done.

But are you confused? I feel like you are literally making my argument for me. Yes he conquered it. Like I am saying.

With dragons they are technically a superpower right? They were not voted into power right? They took power by force yea?

Thats my point.....

[RobertoCarlos]

You said they were voted in, they didn’t rule because they were a super power. The people bowed to the super power of house Targ for years, only turning when the mad king went all nuts.

Aside from the fact your reading comprehension sucks try rereading my first sentence in that quote I was being sarcastic. Maybe you missed half the thread while you were busy face palming but we were talking about Bran, a superpower who was voted in. Then you went on some weird rant about targs while using early 2000s internet jargon.

[RobertoCarlos]

Bullshit. You said people would fear a super power, not bow to them. People in that world regularly bow to super powers. I was countering that statement. And if you were being sarcastic there’s no indication of it in your posts I quoted. Try using the /s or since text doesn’t convey sarcasm alone.

Sure I'll use a /s next time when you try compare Bran being voted in to the being the same thing as Targs taking it by force.

And people eventually did turn against them once they had lost their superpower. Its hard to take it away from them while they have said power which is my point why you wouldnt vote them into power in the first place.

[eschatological]

Jon Snow doesn't want the crown, that's why he's not fit to lead the Six Kingdoms. Tyrion and Varys believed he'd be a good king precisely because he doesn't want to rule, but that's 100% BS. Just look at Garrosh Hellscream. He didn't want to rule, and indeed he ended up being a garbage ruler who had to be put down.

Garrosh Hellscream is a (poorly written) fictional video game character. Meanwhile, the reluctant king archetype was pioneered by Plato and philosophers of his era, and deemed possibly the best government under a monarchy. GRRM didn't make this up.

[Isilrien]

You said they were voted in, they didn’t rule because they were a super power. The people bowed to the super power of house Targ for years, only turning when the mad king went all nuts.

He was being sarcastic. I realize it's hard to pick up on that via text sometimes, however.

[Koriani]

What teh fudge...

They want to make a jon snow sequel series...

I find it more...ironic? Amusing... I'm not sure the word..

Considering the actor said being on the show was "traumatic" and how he couldn't run away fast enough and needed hospitalization after shooting due to how grueling and awful everything was. I got the very clear impression when the show was over Mr. Kit was more than happy to be gone.

This is genuinely one of the last actors I ever expected to be returning to this IP! Because of how negative he was in interviews, on the whole experience. But apparently the new reality of 'not getting paid' was the more traumatic of the two experiences.

[eschatological]

Maybe he's gotta keep Ygritte happy. I don't know that I've seen her working lately either.