Rogues are falling fast, you ok with this?

[Deleted]

IMO they should just make combo points added to your character unit, and not your target, switching targets will be a lot more convinient.
Combo points are pretty lame now, on my fury warrior I can just press 1 2 3 4 and cleave, and do big numbers, on my rogue I have to stack up 5 CP on 1 target to get a big number.

They should make finishers hit harder because the effort to get 5 CP is more than most other classes just pressing 1 or 2 and getting a big number.
Also they should buff agi - dodge ratio because we have less survivability than other classes, recuperate isn't that amazing.
Rogues cant take 12 targets and AOE them down (without using all CDs) like my warrior, death knight, paladin and druid can.

[lightofdawn]

im assuming you mean pve, where i see some rogues doing good and others doing awful

a good rogue i saw was assassination doing about 16k on a boss in all 346's
plus dps classes arent made to out do one another, theyre made to fit different peoples play styles, theyre not meant to do immensely better than other classes

[dokilar]

IMO they should just make combo points added to your character unit, and not your target, switching targets will be a lot more convinient.
Combo points are pretty lame now, on my fury warrior I can just press 1 2 3 4 and cleave, and do big numbers, on my rogue I have to stack up 5 CP on 1 target to get a big number.

They should make finishers hit harder because the effort to get 5 CP is more than most other classes just pressing 1 or 2 and getting a big number.
Also they should buff agi - dodge ratio because we have less survivability than other classes, recuperate isn't that amazing.
Rogues cant take 12 targets and AOE them down (without using all CDs) like my warrior, death knight, paladin and druid can.

effort to get 5 cp? im sorry i have a rogue and ive done enough heroics on him to know that theres virtually no effort required to get 5 cp on a target. switching targets is a pain i'll give you that but generating combo points on a boss is very simplistic.

[Mixon]

our rogues must just be really good, they top there share of fights and bottom out on some and land in the middle some, but then again i can say that for pretty much all our dps, so idk maybe we just got good rogues. we are 8/12 hc in group 1 and 5/12 in group 2. we have 1 rogue in each group.

[Vladimeir]

Also they should buff agi - dodge ratio because we have less survivability than other classes, recuperate isn't that amazing.
Rogues cant take 12 targets and AOE them down (without using all CDs) like my warrior, death knight, paladin and druid can.

The problem with changing the ratio is that tanks, not just druids, will begin to use agility gear. Not to mention that druids would get a huge buff in mitigation. Along with those two problems, rogues are NOT meant to take on 12 targets at once. Basically, You just said "Rogues cannot take on 12 targets and AOE them down without using cooldowns so make them wear plate and give them increased stam and damage reduction." You mentioned all tank capable classes. All plate wearers. This is not a rogues role.

As for the state of rogues dps in raids, I would have to say that I am confident in Blizzard knowing how all of our stats scale. However, looking at the stats we have now, in particular haste, I see there being an upper bound to how well they scale. I see at one point, our DPS making huge jumps only to level off end expansion. The main reason for this is how haste effects resource regeneration. As it stands now, top rogues are getting close to 20 energy per second in BiS gear. This is not including combat potency procs or the like. At the end of Tier 12, this may be closer to 25-30. Tier 13, 30-40. Eventually, it will be extremely difficult to not be energy capped. At that point, our dps won't scale as well as other classes but before we reach that point, Rogue with limitless energy will be topping the meters.

Speaking of haste, to include other classes, some DPS are already reaching a point where they have to fight with haste caps. Particularly casters. That effectively removes one stat on most of their gear and force them to balance around other secondary stats where rogues are just Agil, Haste, Mastery (assuming hit and expertise capped if relavent to spec.) As we get more Agility, Haste or Mastery, each individual stat starts to provide just a little more DPS and as mentioned, other classes sometimes lose values on all of these stats.

Again, I think blizzard knows where our class is and where it will be as we progress through Cataclysm.

I think our set bonus for Tier 12 is a small patch to bring us up to par before we potentially take over the meters.

[pande]

Every class's goal should be to be in the middle of the meters, because that means you're properly balanced.

Not really true, it should be pure dps's goal to be top 4 - because then they are balanced correctly.

[Deleted]

Did I say that? No, If your in a high end guild such as mine. I wanna be there with them competitively instead of well obviously mid

And why mid isn't competitive? You should better define your meaning of "competitive". I used to be always top notch dps in my guild with my feral when I was raiding. The least I have dropped so far is 5th place in 25 mans (which was something that rarely occurred). That doesn't mean I wasn't competitive! There were about 10 dps below me. On the other hand being in the top three also doesn't mean you are competitive! If that's so then what are the rest of the dps?! Suckers and losers? No! As long as your dps is above the average required, you are competitive!
Besides... Being top notch is not only a matter of class. It is also a matter of the player's skill, the character's gear and the harmony in the teamwork of the whole group.

P.S. I stopped raiding after ICC. I was more interested in pvp in which I had spent very little time during Wrath. But a friend of mine who joined one of the top guilds in the horde side of our server (and was previously in the very top of the Alliance), told me that assassination rogues are way above mediocre dps. They are not always on top but they never go down to mid-dps...

[Joesgetndown]

erm, if all classes are in the middle, why even bring a rogue?
What will they bring, besides mediocre mdps?
No buffs that can't be easily supplied by another class...

Why bring any class then?

I think being middle of the pack is perfectly fine.

[Brightnail]

...........

I think our set bonus for Tier 12 is a small patch to bring us up to par before we potentially take over the meters.

I think hoping that a "set bonus" that all classes get (though admittedly, unequally) will somehow help bring rogues up to par is a scary gambit to abide by. Why not just make the talents/skills scaleable? Why not just create abilities (bandits guile) that actually work to the betterment of a rogue, than a detriment? Where are all these "knobs" ghostcrawler spoke about that "they [sic, the devs]" could easily turn for balance? All hogwash. Combats mastery is abysmal. They could have turned that knob a bit. Turned the crit knob a bit etc..

When this forum starts seeing the same numbers of viewers as the warrior forum, we will be looked at. Of course, I am exaggerating, but rogues are not a priority when they make up such a small market share of the classes. The devs are playing politics, as usual.

---------- Post added 2011-05-16 at 09:08 PM ----------

Why bring any class then?

I think being middle of the pack is perfectly fine.

lol. Who desires to be average? wow..... just wow.

[Joesgetndown]

If I'm in the middle then I'm the most balanced.

[Resentful]

And why mid isn't competitive? You should better define your meaning of "competitive". I used to be always top notch dps in my guild with my feral when I was raiding. The least I have dropped so far is 5th place in 25 mans (which was something that rarely occurred). That doesn't mean I wasn't competitive! There were about 10 dps below me. On the other hand being in the top three also doesn't mean you are competitive! If that's so then what are the rest of the dps?! Suckers and losers? No! As long as your dps is above the average required, you are competitive!
Besides... Being top notch is not only a matter of class. It is also a matter of the player's skill, the character's gear and the harmony in the teamwork of the whole group.

P.S. I stopped raiding after ICC. I was more interested in pvp in which I had spent very little time during Wrath. But a friend of mine who joined one of the top guilds in the horde side of our server (and was previously in the very top of the Alliance), told me that assassination rogues are way above mediocre dps. They are not always on top but they never go down to mid-dps...

Heh, you just boosted my esteem

I thank you

[Findme]

I think our set bonus for Tier 12 is a small patch to bring us up to par before we potentially take over the meters.

That's a big misconception, you can't balance a class with its tier gear in order to catch up with the others, you are seeing it in a vacuum, the other classes are getting their tier bonus too, so the imbalance still exists.

Blizzard has failed the concept of mastery beeing a knob to regulate the classes. If you want to be able to control a class with a stat, that stat must have an impact, that is not the case. Combat and Sub don't rely on mastery it's a stat with low priority.

[narwaana]

To me the thought of rouges falling behind is laughable, im going as smf in 10 man normals, and the top three spots are always me, a combat rogue and a elemental shammie, the rogue are almost always coming out on top.

[AceofHarts]

The problem with changing the ratio is that tanks, not just druids, will begin to use agility gear. Not to mention that druids would get a huge buff in mitigation. Along with those two problems, rogues are NOT meant to take on 12 targets at once. Basically, You just said "Rogues cannot take on 12 targets and AOE them down without using cooldowns so make them wear plate and give them increased stam and damage reduction." You mentioned all tank capable classes. All plate wearers. This is not a rogues role.

As for the state of rogues dps in raids, I would have to say that I am confident in Blizzard knowing how all of our stats scale. However, looking at the stats we have now, in particular haste, I see there being an upper bound to how well they scale. I see at one point, our DPS making huge jumps only to level off end expansion. The main reason for this is how haste effects resource regeneration. As it stands now, top rogues are getting close to 20 energy per second in BiS gear. This is not including combat potency procs or the like. At the end of Tier 12, this may be closer to 25-30. Tier 13, 30-40. Eventually, it will be extremely difficult to not be energy capped. At that point, our dps won't scale as well as other classes but before we reach that point, Rogue with limitless energy will be topping the meters.

Speaking of haste, to include other classes, some DPS are already reaching a point where they have to fight with haste caps. Particularly casters. That effectively removes one stat on most of their gear and force them to balance around other secondary stats where rogues are just Agil, Haste, Mastery (assuming hit and expertise capped if relavent to spec.) As we get more Agility, Haste or Mastery, each individual stat starts to provide just a little more DPS and as mentioned, other classes sometimes lose values on all of these stats.

Again, I think blizzard knows where our class is and where it will be as we progress through Cataclysm.

I think our set bonus for Tier 12 is a small patch to bring us up to par before we potentially take over the meters.

i am assuming this is including energy regen from energetic recup, combat potency, and venomous wounds because getting 20 energy/second without these would require 100% haste. something i do not think anyone has.

[Bankrupted]

i've noticed this too. as people in my guild finally catch up to my gear level(being the only rogue I got any item I wanted out of raids when it drops) and i was raping everybody in dps. Now that people are sporting their 4 piece and full epics I've fallen behind to 3 people(2 arcane mages and a warrior) I'm still whooping up on hunters(i think ours are bad) lol

Hunter in 4 set with lets say average i level of 359+ should be doing minimum 22k+ on every fight discounting add kiting phases. If the spec is right and rotation is down its 100% guaranteed almost.

[Synexlol]

We are behind, and I see it in raids too. However, a lot of people overstate it greatly. You will only see the imbalance at the top end of raiding, and even then it's not a huge difference at all, and a lot of the difference can be blurred by player gear/skill. The main problem is that this is a very ranged favored tier, which doesn't help our already somewhat lacking dps. The class as a whole needs buffs (except Subtlety, but we will have to see how it scales into T12 to make a call on it), but I still maintain that, while it is there, a lot of people are overstating our lack of DPS.

I'm gonna be the prick here and say that unless you are playing in top end guilds (ie. Heroic Nefarian/Sinestra guilds), you should work on getting better at playing your class before you start whining about it being underpowered, because you being bad is probably a larger contribution to your low damage than any class issues.

[Laurik]

i think rogues should be happy with not being on the bottom half

[Odina]

I see rogues get the same negative feedback of "O you want to be OP in pvp and PVE" that mages get >.< . The main issue I see in Pures is that we want to be ABLE to top meeters but don't want it handed to us on a silver platter. I believe the devs have totally missed the concept of giving us all specs that we can use that can be top dps if you make no mistakes but again can be crap dps if you cant play it.

Wish they would give pures specs that reflected this... if as a pure dps where I have 1 option for a role then I should have the option to play any 3 of my specs. If I perform perfectly then I should be able to top meeters vs thoes that don't...if I play like crap and the others in the raid are performing better then my dps should fall down the line.

It's sad that they keep breaking pve for pvp and then pvp for pve... wish they would implement more effects like the dmg brain freeze has on npc's to more abilities and have pve and pvp balanced out!

[Sly]

I agree that it's annoying to have hybrid classes beating us in melee dps. However, we do bring a lot of utility aside from buffs: most rogues will be specced into essentially automatic slows which can be great for adds; sprint, cloak of shadows, feint, and vanish all have their uses and can trivialize certain fight mechanics, reducing raid damage by a ton; tricks is fantastic for letting other DPS go nuts right at the start of the pull. I enjoy dpsing on my rogue and on my warrior as arms, but the rogue definitely feels like it benefits the group a lot more, especially in 5 mans (since sap is such good CC - and we'll also be able to rock blind in 4.2!).

[kourkoumpinis]

I honestly don't mean to sound harsh but, let me get this right...
You entitle your thread "rogues are falling fast..." and you give us a link in which assassination spec seems to be 4th in the list among melees and therefore claim there is something that needs to be "fixed".
So OK, I play a rogue for almost 1.5 year now as an alt and tbh i dont really see the MAJOR difference between combat and assassination...there is "some" difference but it's not anywhere near lets say elemental/enh, or resto/feral or whatever. Hell it's not even near fire mage/arcane. And sublety...I don't even think it's worth talking about it since the rogue community has rejected it anyway since it can't give the lolnumbers blade flury/killing spree or vendetta gives, so u can't really blame anyone for keeping it as a "shadowstep+ambush" finisher spec in BGs.
So keeping that in mind i see assassination as 4th place as we said...and that needs "fixing"? If that needs "fixing" then what should happen to the next spec that would then be 4th? or the rest of the 3 melee classes below it?
So I don't really see the point here...unless the point was "why aren't rogues topping the meters" and someone is trying to put it mildly. :P