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  1. #61
    Correction: Scarlet Fever alone is almost worth it. Once estimated this by plainly seeing what actual uptime was, divide it down to 1% uptime and then multiply it by anything vaguely possible.

  2. #62
    I just wanted to ask, by rune-tetris you mean forcing FU runes to proc through delaying blood rune usage?

  3. #63
    The Lightbringer SurrealNight's Avatar
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    Yes over the course of a fight SF should reduce the damage more than what the lost DS would have healed/shielded, I'll just re-direct you back to the lazy/bored portion of my last post lol.

    Over a six minute fight you'd lose about 3 DS which would cost me about 115k in lost healz/shields. The extra uptime of SF would probably apply to about 55% of the 3-4mil melee damage so about 165k-220k. So best case it's about 105k less damage taken in the end.

    On progression fights (which is Nef and HM's for us right now) I do pull out all the stops, but I think I can get away with being lazy on the stuff on farm.

    ---------- Post added 2011-05-27 at 02:58 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by zox View Post
    I just wanted to ask, by rune-tetris you mean forcing FU runes to proc through delaying blood rune usage?
    By having both F/U runes down and one Blood rune up, then using Rune Strike. Also referred to as 'RE gaming'.
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  4. #64
    I'm generally in the same boat as you Surreal, my BB times have dropped but I do keep diseases on - I unfortunately don't have a single other raid member who brings either debuff - or at least actually applies it.

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drunkenvalley View Post
    Correction: Scarlet Fever alone is almost worth it. Once estimated this by plainly seeing what actual uptime was, divide it down to 1% uptime and then multiply it by anything vaguely possible.
    It's not only almost worth it. The calculations we made back then were made with a 2.5 second swing timer with 50k damage per boss. But for some reason bosses tend to swing a lot faster in cata. Somewhere around 1.5-1.8 seconds.

    Random log with a feral druid tank: http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/t...z19/details/5/ (check deaths on Cho'Gall since Halfus has the attackspeed buffs))

  6. #66
    Aye, I figured it was more than just "almost," but I didn't want to make any major conclusions based on an old observation of my own. xD

  7. #67
    The Lightbringer SurrealNight's Avatar
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    It's not only almost worth it. The calculations we made back then were made with a 2.5 second swing timer with 50k damage per boss. But for some reason bosses tend to swing a lot faster in cata. Somewhere around 1.5-1.8 seconds.
    Frost Fever is a must to keep up I agree, but in my raids I usually have 1-2 frost DK's so FF is a guaranteed uptime (unless they die I guess).

    Scarlet Fever is another thing. Unless my earlier posted numbers are off, it seems the gain for keeping that up off Outbreak are only about 50k-100k for normal mode fights.

    Looks like Cho'gall was hitting at 2.079 on avg with Frost Fever on a 68% uptime on their kill.
    Last edited by SurrealNight; 2011-05-27 at 09:26 PM.
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  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ruchika View Post
    I've found dk tanking to be extremely faceroll
    I understand you're staying that it's not rocket science, but a DK played literally with faceroll (random use of keys) would really suck - any tank would keep threat on, but the DK would die... meanwhile a (literally) facerolled paladin tank would survive.

  9. #69
    well I started DK tanking in Cata, due to boredoom needed some new alt. Prio to that I had a holy/prot pally, but our guild's full of those so I decided a DK would be better.
    To be fair I don't find DK tanking that much harder than other tanks. You need to get used to few things, watch out for your rune procs, that's all. Never been rune starved for long enough to actually casue wipe. We have a lot of small cooldowns and it's fun to play with them (I'm also an engineer with 2 more CDs ;P) + 2 on use trinkiets. It sounds way worse and more scary than it actually is. And I love that I have a lot of "o shit buttons"..
    Plus I'm amazed how good their selfheal is and how many little bosses in random instances I tanked with healer dead xD

  10. #70
    I understand where you are coming from, but the frank fact is that we're still notably subpar when played at equal skill.

  11. #71
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    Aaaaaw yeah (not me obviously)
    Cooldown chaining is fun (past 22:58)

  12. #72
    The Lightbringer SurrealNight's Avatar
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    That's a cool graph view, how the F do you set that up in WoL?
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  13. #73
    So, as this as become an in-depth-rune-discussion:
    Surrealnight, do you just ignore the use of Bone Armor, or do you still use it?

    Also, I can't understand how you can let BladeBarrier drop.
    Like you said, You only have two blood runes for 33% of the fight, so as long as blood tap is up, you gain BB with only one heart strike (or bloodboil).
    And I guess it's the same with DS there. The 6% reduction in damage will be better then any DS you did instead.
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  14. #74
    The Lightbringer SurrealNight's Avatar
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    Surrealnight, do you just ignore the use of Bone Armor, or do you still use it?
    Bone Shield you mean? I use it on pull of course and re-apply it during the fight depending on the situation. Vs just melee damage it's only going to give you about 6 seconds of mitigation and will only soak about 44k in melee damage (4 hits of 55k @ 20%) so I feel the rune is better spent when you can soak magic damage.

    So I rotate it in during high magic damage (like if AMS is down or Flames Orders Cho'gall, red vial Maloriak ect). Though Chim is an exception and I use it on CD any time it's up as the double atk tank. Probably good to pop when Nef first lands and nef/ony have the buff, but I usually just go ahead and burn IBF for that and it's up by P3 to finish the fight.

    Actually looking back at my logs I do better with blade barrier than I thought. Chim was about 85% (could be better but not bad) but Magmaw was lower, but I don't worry about keeping BB up while I'm beating on the exposed head and make sure I always have a blood up so I can game as many DS as possible and build up a nice beefy blood shield for when I pick magmaw back up with the armor debuff. You can just do a double blood boil right before he rises up.

    So in straight up fights my uptime is pretty good, lower numbers appear to be based on the fight mechanics.
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  15. #75
    One of my major issues with blood DK is when runic empowerment just doesn't proc. That is about it, considering I can cover the dry periods with one of our many CDs.

    Now, about the mastery vs avoidance arguments. Avoidance is on average 1% less damage taken per % of avoidance, but rng allows for lucky streaks or not. Mastery, on the other hand, is something different. Death strike heals for 20% of damage taken normally, throw in improved death strike, and it goes to 29%. A 29% heal of all damage taken in the last 5 seconds, just about on the level of a normal block. Blood shield starts at 50% of the healed amount, so it is 29+14.5%=43.5% block total. Each mastery point increases blood shield by 6.25% of course. Say you have 18 mastery, you have 112.5% blood shield, making your death strike "block" 29+32.6= about 61.6% block. Make it 19 mastery, so it becomes a 118.75 blood shield. 29+34.4= about 63.4% block, a 1.8% increase in blocked amount.

    1.8% increase in a death strike block. Blizzard has apparently balanced our mastery around 6-7 death strikes per minute. at 7 death strikes per minute, we cover on average 35 seconds per minute with death strike, or 58% time. 1.8x.58=1.044. So based on 7 death strikes per minute, one point of mastery is on average 1.044% less damage taken. More or less equal to avoidance. Now lets throw in runic empowerment gaming, bringing our death strikes/minute up to 9. You cover 45/60 seconds in a minute with the block on average, so 1.8x.75=1.35. If runic empowerment is gamed for more death strikes, mastery gets bumped up to an average of 1.35% less damage taken, far over avoidance. Not to mention, Death strike will "block" 29% of magic damage, and leave you with a blood shield should something physical hit you.

    These lead me to the conclusion that mastery is superior to avoidance if you work to death strike as many times as possible. Not to mention, it is slightly harder to hit a bad chain of rng and be left without anything. And, if the rng gods throw you in to hell, empower rune weapon is always there to hold up until the bad luck ends. Mastery has more flexibility in damage reduction than avoidance, you can absorb the big fuck you spells, and if you are lucky enough to have both sets of f/u (which really shouldn't happen but whatever) you can death strike that hit twice to get a massive heal. Also, mastery has great synergy with vampiric blood, a 25/40% increase (depending if glyphed) to your healed amount, which affects your total "block"

    If you stack mastery so high that blood shields interfere, which is nigh impossible since the blood shield cap is your maximum health (I was messing around and found this out), you would still be absorbing all melee damage incoming, although you aren't benefiting from the 29% heal block of death strike, you still benefit from blood shield, considering from the levels of mastery you would have, would be a massive amount compared to the heal itself.

    For rune gaming while keeping blade barrier up, generally I burn both blood runes at the start to set it up, then use frost/uh, and mid fight with runes recharging, etc. I use a blood rune while the other has around 1 second left to refresh blade barrier, while leaving little room to consume a RE proc.
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  16. #76
    That's a nice comparison, and a nice conclusion, but I have to disagree on the RNG-part:

    Since you're so dependent on Death Strike, it's easy to hit a bad luck-streak, get a few parrys and misses, and get punched to death. Of course, you got cooldowns to cover that, and just like you, I prefer the mastery way.
    But in terms of RNG, both ways of gearing have their downsides.
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  17. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by Pope View Post
    That's a nice comparison, and a nice conclusion, but I have to disagree on the RNG-part:

    Since you're so dependent on Death Strike, it's easy to hit a bad luck-streak, get a few parrys and misses, and get punched to death. Of course, you got cooldowns to cover that, and just like you, I prefer the mastery way.
    But in terms of RNG, both ways of gearing have their downsides.
    I see what you mean, and that has made those FUUUUU moments where you miss the perfect death strikes. But avoidance can be the same way, if you don't get a dodge or parry in a long time, you don't have a very powerful death strike to save you. Both get nuked on a bad rng streak, but bad rng always does that to anyone anyway.
    Quote Originally Posted by Henry Ford
    Thinking is the hardest work there is, which is probably why few engage in it.
    This explains a lot.

  18. #78
    Quote Originally Posted by BoomChickn View Post
    I see what you mean, and that has made those FUUUUU moments where you miss the perfect death strikes. But avoidance can be the same way, if you don't get a dodge or parry in a long time, you don't have a very powerful death strike to save you. Both get nuked on a bad rng streak, but bad rng always does that to anyone anyway.
    Aye, that's just the point he's making.

  19. #79
    Fluffy Kitten Zao's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BoomChickn View Post
    Now, about the mastery vs avoidance arguments. Avoidance is on average 1% less damage taken per % of avoidance, but rng allows for lucky streaks or not. Mastery, on the other hand, is something different. Death strike heals for 20% of damage taken normally, throw in improved death strike, and it goes to 29%. A 29% heal of all damage taken in the last 5 seconds, just about on the level of a normal block. Blood shield starts at 50% of the healed amount, so it is 29+14.5%=43.5% block total. Each mastery point increases blood shield by 6.25% of course. Say you have 18 mastery, you have 112.5% blood shield, making your death strike "block" 29+32.6= about 61.6% block. Make it 19 mastery, so it becomes a 118.75 blood shield. 29+34.4= about 63.4% block, a 1.8% increase in blocked amount.

    1.8% increase in a death strike block. Blizzard has apparently balanced our mastery around 6-7 death strikes per minute. at 7 death strikes per minute, we cover on average 35 seconds per minute with death strike, or 58% time. 1.8x.58=1.044. So based on 7 death strikes per minute, one point of mastery is on average 1.044% less damage taken. More or less equal to avoidance. Now lets throw in runic empowerment gaming, bringing our death strikes/minute up to 9. You cover 45/60 seconds in a minute with the block on average, so 1.8x.75=1.35. If runic empowerment is gamed for more death strikes, mastery gets bumped up to an average of 1.35% less damage taken, far over avoidance. Not to mention, Death strike will "block" 29% of magic damage, and leave you with a blood shield should something physical hit you.
    First: 1% more avoidance is only ~1% less damage taken (when averaged out over a infinite amount of time) when you go from 0% to 1%.
    It's ~2% less damage taken when you go from 50% to 51% and an infinite amount from 101,4% to 102,4%
    That's why DR were implemented, to counteract that effect.

    Second: You're leaving out that Mastery is negatively affected by avoidance and by itself, as well as not-always-optimal timing (as others have pointed out) That's why calculating the average damage reduction based on "coverage time" isn't an ideal simulation for getting a relational value between Mastery and avoidance (if it were we wouldn't still have the discussion about it)
    As an example: If you get a streak of Miss- Hit - Miss (not that unlikely with ~30% avoidance) You either have to use a DS that will most likely be below the minimum heal threshold, or sit on Both rune pairs being recharged.
    On the other hand you'll also go above the 29% heal quite often.

    So while you're probably not too far away from the truth, there's not a 40% (1.8% versus 1.0%) difference between the two. Since that would be more than significant.

  20. #80
    Quote Originally Posted by Zao View Post
    First: 1% more avoidance is only ~1% less damage taken (when averaged out over a infinite amount of time) when you go from 0% to 1%.
    It's ~2% less damage taken when you go from 50% to 51% and an infinite amount from 101,4% to 102,4%
    That's why DR were implemented, to counteract that effect.

    Second: You're leaving out that Mastery is negatively affected by avoidance and by itself, as well as not-always-optimal timing (as others have pointed out) That's why calculating the average damage reduction based on "coverage time" isn't an ideal simulation for getting a relational value between Mastery and avoidance (if it were we wouldn't still have the discussion about it)
    As an example: If you get a streak of Miss- Hit - Miss (not that unlikely with ~30% avoidance) You either have to use a DS that will most likely be below the minimum heal threshold, or sit on Both rune pairs being recharged.
    On the other hand you'll also go above the 29% heal quite often.

    So while you're probably not too far away from the truth, there's not a 40% (1.8% versus 1.0%) difference between the two. Since that would be more than significant.
    I mentioned that mastery is closer to 1.35% if you game runic empowerment to its fullest. But I see what you mean, avoidance does scale exponentially, rather than linearly. And on the argument of mastery, if you do get a lucky avoidance chain, you don't need to death strike for that time, leaving your runes to recharge, and therefore giving you more coverage time. I know why you say coverage time isn't the best to use because of rng. But periods of spike damage have to be taken in to account, and if you can cover them entirely with heals from death strike, you can increase your total damage "blocked" for that time.

    While mastery is more powerful with increasing damage taken, due to its "blocking" mechanic, when you hit periods with little to no damage, I would not have a problem using death strike. Even if it is below the threshold, provided that there won't be a large amount of damage incoming, I would death strike for the shield anyway because I won't waste runes sitting there, unless there is a massive spike coming shortly I need both sets for.

    I'm using coverage time as an average, considering that taking in account all situations, you may or may not have the runes you need for the big spikes, just like you may or may not avoid the attacks. Considering that people may save runes for the spikes, the ratio can be increased, along with extended periods of low damage, where healing/damage is much higher.

    But taking in to account increasing returns on avoidance, I would have to say avoidance would be a net gain once you can pass 30% total avoidance.

    Imo, its a playstyle choice.

    And to be honest, my blood DK is only in heroics at the moment, so most of the things I am saying dealing with hard modes are mostly stabs in the dark.
    Quote Originally Posted by Henry Ford
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