Proposal: Give Rogues a Tank Spec/Stance

[Deleted]

Hunter pet raid tank! Seriously who doesn't want a tank that has no free will.

I'd say this is way more realistic a change... also, i'd fucking love that. (Hunter goes: i'm not getting loot? FU! "dismiss pet", "FD")

OT: Even though i liked your post (yes i'm at work so i read it all) i dont see it happening : / the idea with a "dual tree" is good though

[Deleo]

101: How to say "let rogues tank" in over 100 pages.

The question is if a new tank is needed why should it be rogue? There better options both lorewise and class-mechanics wise:

1- Hunter's pet (pet takes damage hunter does less damage but instead generates alot of threat for the pet)
2- Shaman (they can do it to some degree already)
3- Warlock
4- ....

[volescue]

Oh, I'd love to tank as a warlock. And since I see a "give pure dps a tank spec" every now and then I guess I'm not the only one who wants to tank but plays a class as main who can't. But converting pures to hybrids will never happen though, so I'll shut up now and go back pewpew-ing

Like I said, there is some overlap. However, the thought of a warlock tanking spec where you did mediocre dps, and had to use defensive cooldowns instead of damage abilities at times instead of damage spells would lose its appeal to people pretty quick. I am not talking like the occasional Leo fight where you tanked simply by standing at range and doing more threat than anyone else eating damage with SL.

[Azure P]

more tank specs are not going to increase the number of tanks in the queue.

the people that want to tank, are tanking, the people who don't, are not.

stop it.

edit add: no, i did not read that wall-o-text.

So by your logic. If we take away tank specs from classes, it's not going to decrease the number of tanks in queue either?

When I am not on my paladin and want to play on my rogue, there are times I wish I could tank. There are times I do tank and save the group from a wipe; but that only lasts for 30 seconds after the shit hits the fan. There are many hopeless tanks that don't know what they are doing out there when PUGing. Not to mention instant queue and the extra loot bag is very nice to have.

So I call foul on your "making more tank specs isn't going to increase the number of tanks in the queue" because I would be one of them.

+1 for rogue tank since combat spec is pretty much useless.

[Deleted]

I didn't read the text however I belive giving rogues the ability to tank would be truly amazing.

I still remember the days of BC when rogues did tank before the dodge/parry change, it was truly awesome. And to those saying rogues don't fit the description, well they somewhat do, think about the fact they are using evasion and shadows to confuse the enemy. They can use those in battle too to protect friends. Just think a bit, cloak of shadows, evasion, that other swirly thing whose name I forgat, these are abilities that could be used by tanks as those special abilities.

[Lovestar]

more tank specs are not going to increase the number of tanks in the queue.

the people that want to tank, are tanking, the people who don't, are not.

I disagree. The current tank options appeal to a very narrow column of personalities: you have 3 front-line battlefield soldiers in armor waving swords around, and 1 fat bear for the comedy option.

People who prefer robed wizards, or sneaky thieves, or plugging things full of bullets, or peyote-huffing mystics who talk to boulders, or w/e, won't even bother playing the available tank classes in the first place. Hence, they won't even really be offered the chance to try it.

You can't look at it from the perspective of an experienced player who understands all this stuff intuitively, knows the tank classes by heart, and knows how to look up the playstyle they'd prefer. From the perspective of an average player — "But, I like wizards!" is going to gate more of their decisions than a large concern about what they're queuing as.

I believe if you gave people more truly different options to tank with — conceptually, aesthetically — you would indeed see more tanks. Would they be good tanks? Mmm, perhaps not, similar to the great DK influx and Call to Arms fiascoes. But you'd certainly see more of them, and over time, the average number of people who tried it, liked it, and decided to get good at it would increase.

Personal appeal counts for alot more than it maybe should when it comes to what people choose in games, especially initially.

[Deleted]

It would be interesting to see disc priests as a tank, there are several talents that make disc priests take less damage. Mechaninc wise it could focus on self-absorbs.

It probably wont ever happened btu still would be interesting.

[Warlight]

Whats up with alot of people seeing rogues as "swashbuklers"? I mean aren't those basically drunken pirates? I could see a fury warrior as a swashbukler, but a rogue? No.

[Mikael123]

[QUOTE=spekkio;11668578]The OP suggested that rogues' new 'stance' would increase armour contribution from items by 95% (I imagine it's just an arbitrary number though).
[QUOTE]

Boosting their armor wouldn't solve anything. The rogue would still need a high amount of health to make it possible to balance the rogue tank with other tanks. You have to consider that healers are also a part of the equation and will have to heal a tank which takes a somewhat steady number of incoming damage and be roughly as busy healing a rogue tank as healing a warrior tank.

Making rogues tanking is a terrible idea. It would make just as much sense to give warriors a bandage healing spec in my opinion.

[Elrohir]

A few additional points: The 95% wasn't an arbitrary number, it was taking into account the current talent bonus from leather item rank 1 of the Reinforced Leather talent. I forgot rank 2 which is 50%, so the actual number I'd choose would be 70%. Added together, it's the same bonus a bear tank gets from his stance. I didn't think to check more druid talents, if there's more added in, then there'd be more added in. The point of it would be to give rogues some commensurate amount of armor AND health to deal with tanking. It would not be dodge dodge dodge squish, more dodge parry, dodge parry, heal with recuperate, tank heals from target healer, no squishing involved. Too many people are assuming the rogue's health pool would be the same; it would be much higher to deal with the role of tanking. Healers were not forgotten. I like that idea of throwing green pools of poison on the ground as well. Another nice AoE tanking ability I hadn't considered.

I was aiming for an overall DPS/Tank/PVP talenting instead of DPS/DPS/PVP(DPS) role here. True, this wouldn't change much for rogue's DPS role in raiding and gives another option (once balanced and viable) that could be different but enjoyable. Don't look at it as a direct conversion with what a rogue already has, there are definite changes to the talent tree, talents, and abilities that would have to occur to provide the survivability a rogue currently does not have. For those of you who had constructive criticism, thanks. For those of you who "don't read the wall of text" please have the decency to not reply, as you're wasting everyone's time. Thank you.

[aztr0]

Ridiculous proposal. Sigh...

[Auloria]

A tank, in my eyes, is a big bulk of armor with a huge shield (sorry dk's) or a bear works as well.

It's a reasonable idea, but I have the same issue as this guy. To me, tank means "meat shield".

[looopy]

very extensive argument. Not a possibility but would be pretty cool.

[Deleted]

No. Very fun idea i admit, but pvp balance would upset alot of people, then theres the whole rp element; ever wonder why garona didn't tank skullcrusher at the end of the highlands quest?

I used to hate rogues with a passion, but i made one to help a mate level his character and i had fun, i dont want to go back to hating them like i did with death knights... remember the flood of BAD tanks in the lfg. It took blizz a whole expansion to kina get death knights to a good tank standerd-ish not as good as old blood tanks in my opinion; but i digress i mean do you realy want a useless tree for a whole expansion while blizz tweaks it left and right till its meh?

I read all of the OP and all the replys, good ideas i admit but the thing that punches the whole in it for me is... how the hell does a combat stance suddenly give you all that extra armour and health? blood presence=magic, pally+warr=shield, druid=hippy magic.

[Sodia]

The problem with a Rogue tank is the same problem that has always occurred during "evasion tanking". Currently this is something you'll see fairly often at the tail end of a Chimeron fight. Tanks are dead and Chim is making his way down the threat list. He gets to the Rogue and the Rouge pops Evasion....

Dodge, dodge, dodge, dodge, squish.

Spikey damage like this would be a ridiculous nightmare to heal through. And I just can't see how you could construct a Rogue to take and mitigate the kind of damage a Tank needs to take. Druids turn into fucking bears and the other tanking options running around in thick as hell plate gear. What do you propose should be done when your Rogue tank misses a dodge and goes from 100% to 5% health? What happens when he gets really unlucky and takes two in a row? What should the Healer be doing the rest of the time when the Rogue is dodging everything and taking no damage? How does the Rogue survive magic attacks that can't be dodged?

You put a lot of effort into the abilities you think would allow your Rogue to tank without putting any thought at all into how the Tank role itself would interact with the class. This shows a stupendous lack of understanding of the core of tanking. Dodge, dodge, dodge, dodge, squish is not anything I would ever want to be forced to heal.

There is no thematic support here for Rogue tanks. Evasion makes sense as a temporary cooldown. But as an entire role? No. It doesn't make a lick of sense. All there is here is you wanting faster queue times.

So youre sayin that you prefer healing full of stamina tank then Evasion tank ?? i dont say that Rogue Should be a tank but pleas if you cant heal a damage spike on a tank then you should not be a tank healer at all

[volescue]

So I call foul on your "making more tank specs isn't going to increase the number of tanks in the queue" because I would be one of them.

+1 for rogue tank since combat spec is pretty much useless.

You are comparing two different things. If you take away a prot warrior spec, you are removing the ability of someone who is already tanking to tank. Just because you add a new class that can tank, doesn't mean you are adding tanks to queues, at least not in notable numbers.

[Mandible]

So much text with so much insanity...

[Vulgrym]

Why do I propose this? My in-game main character is a rogue named Elrohir. With the creation of the LFD finder, I converted to a paladin and tanked primarily to get into queues faster. After tanking on all four classes at 80 (except a warrior that I got to 65) and my paladin at 85, I decided to take a break and play my rogue again and realized that we should be able to tank with some changes to the class. I enjoyed running my wife's characters through lower level dungeons on my rogue as a tank, and solo'ing Karazan at 85 was great fun. Seeing posts by Jider who soloed the Twin Emperors, C'thun, and Patchwerk (though admittedly sketchy victories), and knowing of rogues who soloed Gruul, there should be no reason why rogues shouldn't have a choice at tanking. I thought of BM Hunters or Enhance Shaman for tanking, Mages or warlocks for healing, and they don't have the same feeling for me. Maybe Warlocks can syphon health from their opponents and funnel it to their allies, I don't know. Maybe someone else can give that some thought, add another healer in addition to my proposed tank to the game. I for one love playing my rogue, and love tanking, and would be beyond ecstatic to have the two merged at last. I don't PVP and couldn't care less how a rogue tank would affect PVP balance, so it's not considered here and is not the purpose of this post anyway. Yes, I would model a rogue tank after a bear tank, though retain energy instead of rage. Whatever the case, maybe Blizzard will take notice and incorporate this idea. Below are some more of my ideas. Please speak up if you like them. It's not an all-inclusive, in-depth list, just what my scatterbrained mind could come up with after writing the rest of this post.

So, in essence you propose this because you love your Rogue and think it would be cool if it could fulfill more roles? And that because Rogues have been able to gimmick "tank" some content in the past forms some kind of argument to make it a baseline capability?

I don't think so.

The reality is that four tanks is more than enough and that homogenization is already rampant enough in the game. I'm sure players who love their Shaman, Hunters and Warlocks could make equally convincing arguments about how or why those classes should tank (actually, MORE convincing arguments when I think about existing mechanics).

[Zheryn]

If any classes should get a tanking spec it'd be hunters or shamans.

[Izzyasha]

sounds like people wnat rogue s to be tanks as they played too much rift.... seriously leave that trashy game at the door if your coming back to wow.