1. #3841
    Quote Originally Posted by Laurcus View Post
    There is no military force strong enough to take on the Aldmeri Dominion. Even if the Stormcloaks joined the Empire, they would be crushed easily. It is a no win scenario without the help of a supernatural being like Talos, or the Dragonborn.

    It's like this. In the past, any time the Empire or the world was in serious trouble, Talos and the other Divines were like, "Sup! Dun worry, we got this!" and either directly or indirectly, they saved the Empire. This time when the Empire is about to be destroyed, they agree to outlaw the worship of Talos, and the gods don't come down to pull their butts out of the fire for the first time in history.

    Am I the only one that sees a correlation there? And people are saying that siding with the dudes that quite literally gave their real, physical, living god the finger, is supposed to be smart?

    This isn't real life where religion is up for debate. This is Elder Scrolls. Talos is real, he's virtually all powerful, he can take physical form on Nirn whenever he wishes and has done so in the past, and he's probably pretty pissed off. He has always protected the Empire in the past. The one time the Empire turns their back on him, he doesn't appear to save the day. This isn't rocket surgery.
    I thought that because he didn't show up they were unable to overcome the Dominion, and to avoid being wiped out had to sign the treaty which included banning worship of Talos?

  2. #3842
    Quote Originally Posted by Judge Malthred View Post
    I thought that because he didn't show up they were unable to overcome the Dominion, and to avoid being wiped out had to sign the treaty which included banning worship of Talos?
    I believe they gave up too quickly. If they had resisted till death I'm sure the Divines would have saved the Empire. I believe the Thallmor were inside the Imperial city, and were in the process of taking the palace when the "Emperor" surrendered.

  3. #3843
    Is it possible that Talos created the Dragonborn / gave them their powers as a response to Ulfric killing Torygg? That would be the "act of serious trouble" that you speak of. However, as the Empire directly outlawed the worship of him, he doesn't feel that coming to their aid is that urgent. Instead, he finds some random guy / girl from somewhere and sends them off to Skyrim, just in time for them to be captured with Ulfric.

    In the end, Talos wants what's best for Tamriel, and Ulfric starting a civil war in Skyrim isn't going to help with that at all. So he creates a new Dragonborn, and sends them off to reunite Skyrim. However, because there is now a Dragonborn, that means someone is capable of defeating Alduin.

    *SPOILER*

    The Tongues, looking into the future, now see someone that is capable of defeating Alduin, and therefore decide that's the "when" they're going to send him off to.

    *END SPOILER*

    Note that I haven't actually finished the main quest, but I enjoy speculating.

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    Umbra - you are a god.

  4. #3844
    Quote Originally Posted by Laurcus View Post
    There is no military force strong enough to take on the Aldmeri Dominion. Even if the Stormcloaks joined the Empire, they would be crushed easily. It is a no win scenario without the help of a supernatural being like Talos, or the Dragonborn.

    It's like this. In the past, any time the Empire or the world was in serious trouble, Talos and the other Divines were like, "Sup! Dun worry, we got this!" and either directly or indirectly, they saved the Empire. This time when the Empire is about to be destroyed, they agree to outlaw the worship of Talos, and the gods don't come down to pull their butts out of the fire for the first time in history.

    Am I the only one that sees a correlation there? And people are saying that siding with the dudes that quite literally gave their real, physical, living god the finger, is supposed to be smart?

    This isn't real life where religion is up for debate. This is Elder Scrolls. Talos is real, he's virtually all powerful, he can take physical form on Nirn whenever he wishes and has done so in the past, and he's probably pretty pissed off. He has always protected the Empire in the past. The one time the Empire turns their back on him, he doesn't appear to save the day. This isn't rocket surgery.
    You made me like 100x more interested in seeing a Thalmor DLC =P

  5. #3845
    Quote Originally Posted by tangosmango View Post
    You made me like 100x more interested in seeing a Thalmor DLC =P
    I greatly desire DLC that deals with the Aldmeri Dominion. I don't know what's gonna happen from here, but I'm sure it'll be awesome. Maybe we'll see an appearance of Talos, like in Morrowind where he gives his lucky coin to the Neravarine just before the battle with Dagoth Ur. Either way it'll be awesome.

  6. #3846
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    Quote Originally Posted by Laurcus View Post
    I believe they gave up too quickly. If they had resisted till death I'm sure the Divines would have saved the Empire. I believe the Thallmor were inside the Imperial city, and were in the process of taking the palace when the "Emperor" surrendered.
    See and I agree with the Emperor surrendering there. Even though Talos is real and all the divines, if they hadn't intervened by then I would give up and considered it the right thing to do because I had no reason to believe they were ever going to intervene. And I agree with umbra's idea. I dunno but I personally think that the Empire did what was best and that Ulfric's just being a huge dick.

  7. #3847
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaelwryn View Post
    Oh please, have you sat and listened to Ulfric and his right hand talk? They could care less about lives. They are as bad as the empire if you seriously believe that the Empire "tortures and kills indiscriminately." Ulfric is of the mindset that either you are with him or against him and is more than willing to take down anyone not with him. That means hurting innocent ppl who want nothing to do with a silly civil war that doesn't NOTHING but hurt Skyrim and the Empire as a whole. If people would suck up their pride and work WITH the empire they could take out the Thalmor and be done with the threat it brings. But no because people are too stubborn and proud to see beyond what's in their face, that's likely to not happen.
    Side with the empire? The empire that already surrendered? Its pretty hard to win when you've already given up. And they _were_ a part of the empire. This is a new rebellion in response to oppression that came from surrendering. The empire sold out the rebels in Hammerfall and turned their back on the god of the empire and of the Nords.

    Ulfric is a folk hero. While the empire is busy getting people killed to save themselves, prying into personal lives, and putting souls in jeopardy Ulfric is out putting his ass on the line reclaiming cities(belonging to and getting no aid from the empire, mind you) and proclaiming freedom and responsibility. Ulfric fights on the front line to defend his people. Three times in the game he's risked his own life to save the lives of others. He fights to save regular people not even under his stewardship because he feels it is his duty. He has a responsibility to the lives in his care that he takes that seriously. Some people here call that racism. Its funny to call him the racist when of all the jarls, he's the only one filling up sections of his city with other races. He doesn't have the resources to do more for them. He puts his own people first. He's fighting a war to liberate his own people. But he still takes the time to give shelter to those you're saying he despises.

    No, the Stormcloaks are not torturing at all and they don't kill indiscriminately. Following laws and being honorable is essential to what they are. The empire doesn't just execute people for no reason, they also do it when someone follows the law. The rebels are willing to leave you alone if you don't want to take part. They urge you to stand up for yourself but they don't exactly have roving press gangs. The conviction the Stormcloaks have and their willingness to sacrifice is what made the empire great in the past. The empire of today doesn't have it. They've already surrendered. There is no point in backing them up when they're just going to keep lying down. What people need is to regain their dignity and fight. The last thing the Thalmor wanted, and they admit it themselves, is for Ulfric to win. Where the emperor will sacrifice his people for his own life, Ulfric would do the opposite.

    Assuming Ulfric gains the throne of High King, the other rebels against the Thalmor in other nations stand a better chance. At the very least, the other factions will only have one enemy instead of the addition of backstabbing allies. But Ulfric will likely feel compelled to aid in the fight. He will continue to put his own nation first(omg more racism), but there are more reasons for him to continue pushing the Thalmor back than not. Continued security for his people and the traditions he clings to so fondly come to mind immediately, but vengeance and glory work too. Is he full of himself? Sure. Power hungry? Sure. But he is still noble, and he is still right.

    Quote Originally Posted by Laurcus View Post
    This isn't rocket surgery.
    But if it was, I'd be ready!
    Last edited by Rocketsurgeon; 2011-12-02 at 11:18 PM.

  8. #3848
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rocketsurgeon View Post
    <snip>
    There is nothing NOBLE about a power hungry bastard using the banner of Freedom to gain it. I would not be at all surprised if once he got the throne, if he ever does, he turned around and taxed Skyrim into Oblivion. He does what he wants for himself and no one else. I think he's blindsiding everyone. While I understand and can agree with the sentiment that yeah that empire didn't fully do its duty, I can understand and agree with empire's side. it was either risk being destroyed or doing something "small" in order to save thousands of lives. Of course with this civil war you still run the risk of being destroyed. EITHER WAY THIS WAR IS STUPID AND HELPS NO ONE.

  9. #3849
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaelwryn View Post
    There is nothing NOBLE about a power hungry bastard using the banner of Freedom to gain it. I would not be at all surprised if once he got the throne, if he ever does, he turned around and taxed Skyrim into Oblivion. He does what he wants for himself and no one else. I think he's blindsiding everyone. While I understand and can agree with the sentiment that yeah that empire didn't fully do its duty, I can understand and agree with empire's side. it was either risk being destroyed or doing something "small" in order to save thousands of lives. Of course with this civil war you still run the risk of being destroyed. EITHER WAY THIS WAR IS STUPID AND HELPS NO ONE.
    That's how I feel. I don't feel like siding with either group like at all. I wish there was an option to be on your own side...

    On another topic, how is the patch? Is it even worth getting? I've been reading complaints that this patch ruins some other things that are not worth the fixing done by the patch...
    Last edited by Creatinebrah; 2011-12-02 at 11:33 PM.

  10. #3850
    The patch seems to react differently to each person. It hasn't really done anything bad to my game but others have reported lots of issues. So patch up at your own risk.

  11. #3851
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaelwryn View Post
    There is nothing NOBLE about a power hungry bastard using the banner of Freedom to gain it. I would not be at all surprised if once he got the throne, if he ever does, he turned around and taxed Skyrim into Oblivion. He does what he wants for himself and no one else. I think he's blindsiding everyone. While I understand and can agree with the sentiment that yeah that empire didn't fully do its duty, I can understand and agree with empire's side. it was either risk being destroyed or doing something "small" in order to save thousands of lives. Of course with this civil war you still run the risk of being destroyed. EITHER WAY THIS WAR IS STUPID AND HELPS NO ONE.
    When he liberated Markarth, it was not for himself. When he surrendered at the ambush leading to Helgen it was not for himself. He thinks about the freedoms of others and is willing to die so that his followers might have a chance to live. He has never expressed an interest in amassing fortunes for himself. He is constantly talking about how wrong it is that others have had things taken from them. It is better to risk destruction than to guarantee it. The Dominion are true racists. They believe that only their race should rule _everywhere_. Ulfric has no interest in putting a Nord in charge of Elsweyr. What you call his racism is his prioritizing the plight of his own kinsmen. And all the empire has done is allow the Dominion to carry out their atrocities without having to worry about a front line. They can build secret prisons on imperial land, walk into people's homes, and kill or abduct as they see fit. Much more was lost than just the freedom of religion. Ulfric supports liberty well beyond that of his opponents.

    So long as the empire crawled along in skyrim, the average person would live in fear.

  12. #3852
    Quote Originally Posted by Rocketsurgeon View Post
    If you want to fight them, why join the side that already surrendered to them? The Stormcloaks want to do what the Hammerfall resistance is doing-continue to resist. The cause is worth fighting for and dying for. The Imperials want to roll over and be Thalmor slaves. They gave up. If you're attacking Thalmor agents to free prisoners, you're doing the opposite of what the empire wants.

    Ulfric wants to reclaim the homeland of his people from an invading aggressor race. Other races who want to live peacefully within Skyrim he is happy to have. His responsibilities do not center on them, however, but on his own people. Calling Ulfric racist when he's the one standing up to genocidal oppression is crazy to me.
    I'm a High Elf, and the Thalmor are rude and snobby to me as well. Ulfric also comes off as a selfish man to me so I joined the Imperials...

    before completing the Dark Brotherhood quest chain, of course

    Doing the Imperials quest chain you really find out that Ulfric is not so noble as people make him to be. He doesn't even honor the nordic traditions that stormcloaks claim to uphold.

    BTW I hate that the story only has the greatest effect if you're a Nord. Logically it makes no sense for me as a High Elf to be Dovakhiin.
    Last edited by Zarasthura; 2011-12-03 at 12:52 AM.
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  13. #3853
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    Speaking of banning of Talos, has anyone noticed that praying to him gives you nothing? Or well, it does give a buff that reduces time between shouts by 0%. Got me thinking if it was a bug or intentional. Although very people could actually use shouts so it's kind of irrelevant either way but if praying to him actually does something, wouldn't it be proof that he actually is god.. even if it just cures diseases?

  14. #3854
    If Ulfric wasn't a little racist (I think his racism is intensified if you join the imperials), then there WOULD be a right/wrong side. Most people agree with what Ulfric is fighting for, just not how he is fighting for it. In the end, it'll come down to individual principals. If Ulfric wasn't racist, it would be incredibly hard to argue in the imperials favor.

  15. #3855
    Quote Originally Posted by Zafire View Post
    If Ulfric wasn't a little racist (I think his racism is intensified if you join the imperials), then there WOULD be a right/wrong side. Most people agree with what Ulfric is fighting for, just not how he is fighting for it. In the end, it'll come down to individual principals. If Ulfric wasn't racist, it would be incredibly hard to argue in the imperials favor.
    The General seems to be a fine replacement for what Ulfric stands for.

  16. #3856
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    Quote Originally Posted by ita View Post
    Speaking of banning of Talos, has anyone noticed that praying to him gives you nothing? Or well, it does give a buff that reduces time between shouts by 0%. Got me thinking if it was a bug or intentional. Although very people could actually use shouts so it's kind of irrelevant either way but if praying to him actually does something, wouldn't it be proof that he actually is god.. even if it just cures diseases?
    According to the UESP it is a bug: " The Blessing of Talos appears to fortify shouts by 0%, when, in fact, it does fortify shouts by 20% as it should do. This has been confirmed on PC, PS3 and Xbox 360."

  17. #3857
    Quote Originally Posted by Rocketsurgeon View Post
    When he liberated Markarth, it was not for himself. When he surrendered at the ambush leading to Helgen it was not for himself. He thinks about the freedoms of others and is willing to die so that his followers might have a chance to live. He has never expressed an interest in amassing fortunes for himself. He is constantly talking about how wrong it is that others have had things taken from them. It is better to risk destruction than to guarantee it. The Dominion are true racists. They believe that only their race should rule _everywhere_. Ulfric has no interest in putting a Nord in charge of Elsweyr. What you call his racism is his prioritizing the plight of his own kinsmen. And all the empire has done is allow the Dominion to carry out their atrocities without having to worry about a front line. They can build secret prisons on imperial land, walk into people's homes, and kill or abduct as they see fit. Much more was lost than just the freedom of religion. Ulfric supports liberty well beyond that of his opponents.

    So long as the empire crawled along in skyrim, the average person would live in fear.
    Granted I haven't finished the main questline, exactly how powerful is Dragonborn? How would be fare against...say, Talos?

    ***SPOILERS BELOW*** Press CTRL + A to see

    What about the Daedra? I read that Sheogorath (Jyggalag) was so powerful that the other Daedra got jealous and turned him into Sheo. So how powerful is our Dragonborn compared to this Daedra?

    I'm just trying to get a grasp on the hierarchy of strength in this series.

  18. #3858
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    Skyrim going up against Skyward sword for GOTY by g4. Imperials and Stormcloaks must unite to combat this evil!

    http://www.g4tv.com/vgdm/best-game-2...askywardsword/

  19. #3859
    Quote Originally Posted by tangosmango View Post
    Granted I haven't finished the main questline, exactly how powerful is Dragonborn? How would be fare against...say, Talos?
    Off the cuff I'd have to say that my character, while able to 3 shot dragons routinely, isn't a god and has shown no sign of approaching ascension to one. I think Talos would school me thoroughly. As far as more canon heirarchies of power might go, no idea. I'm still getting used to liking the series

    As for making Ulfric have some sort of negative attribute in order to balance the sides better, I was never looking for a role model. Only a leader. Were Mr Rogers to be found in game I'd take his counsel on faith but I wouldn't support him for jarl or king. I make no claim to him being a good person, but I still don't buy into Ulfric being a racist. There's an ocean between "I take care of my own because they're my own and I have limits," and "I take care of my own because we're better than you and you're not worth it."

  20. #3860
    Quote Originally Posted by tangosmango View Post
    Granted I haven't finished the main questline, exactly how powerful is Dragonborn? How would be fare against...say, Talos?

    ***SPOILERS BELOW*** Press CTRL + A to see

    What about the Daedra? I read that Sheogorath (Jyggalag) was so powerful that the other Daedra got jealous and turned him into Sheo. So how powerful is our Dragonborn compared to this Daedra?

    I'm just trying to get a grasp on the hierarchy of strength in this series.
    Dragonborn is a human with dragon blood. He'd be absolutely no match for Talos. Talos is basically omnipotent. All knowing, all seeing, all powerful. Even if he chooses to appear in a physical form, and you kill him, he wouldn't actually be dead, or even hurt, and he could stop you with a thought.

    In general, the 9 Divines are completely superior to the daedric princes. With a thought, the 9 Divines could make the daedric princes not exist. For example, Mehrunes Dagon, during the Oblivion crisis he came to Tamriel in his physical form. He was defeated by Martin, as the avatar of Akatosh.

    Without the intervention of the 9 Divines, that would have been the end of the world. No mortal army, even the Empire, the Aldmeri Dominion, and all dragons teaming up, would have ever been able to even wound Mehrunes Dagon. He's a virtually invincible, all powerful force of destruction.

    He is so infinitely limited compared to the 9 Divines though. Dagon destroying the world, (without the use of his army) would require him to individually kill every mortal. When the dwarves tried to tap into the power of the dead god Lorkhan, their entire species vanished in an instant. That's the difference between the daedra, and the 9 Divines. Extreme overwhelming power vs true omnipotence.

    Concerning beings currently on the physical plane, the dragonborn is really high up there. If I had to guess, I'd say he's the second strongest, under the Neravarine.

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