1. #1

    Mirror VS Alch Stone

    I have seen some BiS lists that show BiS #2 (after DMC:Volcano, of course) as Theralion's Mirror, and some as the Alch Stone. Is this assuming Alch Stone is BiS #2 only IF youre an alch?

    Question being if a shadow priest is also an alch, would he be better off equipping the mirror or alch stone (with dmc: volcano)?

    Thanks in advance!

  2. #2
    The mirror is still better than the stone, as is DMC: Volcano.

    The mirror: http://www.wowhead.com/item=59519
    321 Intellect, proc 1926 Mastery for 20 seconds, ICD ~90 seconds (less sure about this one)

    DMC: Volcano: http://www.wowhead.com/item=62047
    321 Mastery (reforgable to 193 mastery and 128 haste), proc 1600 Int for 12 seconds, ICD ~45 seconds

    Vibrant Alchemist Stone: http://www.wowhead.com/item=68777/vi...lchemist-stone
    351 Intellect (with +40 Int gem) and 194 Haste

    The first instinct for shadow is to reject the mirror outright because we don't really care about mastery, the base Int on the trinket is less than the alchemist stone has, and the alchemist stone even has haste. However, once you look at how mastery actually works for us (and some number crunching I'm way to lazy to do, but someone is certainly gonna come along and chime in), the mirror is actually awesome if you know what you're doing.

    Shadow Orbs - Our new mastery Shadow Orb Power, results in increased damage from the stacking buff, Shadow Orbs, that we receive for specializing in the Shadow tree. Proccing from the ticks of our Shadow Word: Pain and Mind Flay spells, we gain a stacking buff of up to 3 Shadow Orbs. These stacks are consumed with casting Mind Blast or Mind Spike. Depending on which spell is cast, we receive a 10% damage bonus to that spell for each stack of Shadow Orbs consumed. We receive an additional 1.3% damage to this per point of mastery. Also, we receive the 15 second buff Empowered Shadows, increasing the damage of our periodic damage spells by 10% when our Shadow Orbs are consumed. The percentage of this damage increases 1.3% per point of mastery as well.

    The two effects of consuming our Shadow Orbs, buffing Mind Spike/Mind Blast damage and DOT damage, warrant a bit more explanation in their execution. Empowered Shadows is gained by consuming at least one Shadow Orb. The number Shadow Orb stacks consumed has no effect on the % damage increase on our periodic spells and will remain the same whether 1, 2, or 3 Shadow Orbs are consumed. The effect of the stacks is only important in the increase of amplified damage of Mind Blast and Mind Spike. Only these two spells receive higher damage with more Shadow Orb stacks consumed.
    -Taken from Newnoise's PVE Shadow Guide Sticky http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...e-(by-Newnoise)

    The relevant part for the mirror is bolded. The rest is there to recap in case anyone is rusty on how mastery works, since the mirror is literally the only reason we'd pay extra attention to it (ES uptime is pretty much just there otherwise).

    Theralion's Mirror is awesome because the 1926 mastery is a buff to your ES debuff on the boss. If TM procs, and you have an orb, and you immediately use it to refresh ES, it is ridiculously more powerful. You refresh the DoTs you have and enjoy a nice boost to all DoTs, plus MB when you cast the next orb.

    That sounds all nice and good, but then again it only lasts 20 seconds. 20 seconds of stronger DoTs still seems bleh compared to a flat haste increase and Int procs with either of the other trinkets over the mirror. It comes off as a toss up, or maybe even something to switch depending on fights. However, that's ignoring a key part of our mastery. ES is a separate duration from the mirror, and you choose when that procs. Time to get creative!

    Let's imagine another perfect situation. TM procs when you have an orb and your MB CD is up. You refresh ES with the orb, refresh your DoTs again, and generally have a good time. You're getting to ~17 seconds into the proc, you have another orb, and MB is up again. You refresh ES just before the TM proc drops off. Holy crap, you have another 15 seconds of OP ES, adding up to 35 seconds total. Nice. All you have to do is refresh your DoTs one last time just before that ES drops off (AND OMG, DO NOT USE MB WITH AN ORB FOR THOSE 15 SECONDS). DP lasts 24 seconds (coming out to ~57 seconds of being OP) VT lasts for 15 seconds (~48 seconds of being OP). The ~ are to account for cast times and GCD, but it'll be off by 1-2 seconds at most.

    Overall, you have a trinket with about ~90sec ICD, and you can potentially get 20-60 seconds of crazy OP DoTs each time depending on how well you're paying attention. That's pretty damn beast, especially if Power Torrent and DMC: Volcano (both of which have ICD's of 45 seconds) are going at the same time.

    Of course, it's not going to be perfect every time it procs. A lot of this is also skill. The more movement in the fight, the harder it's going to be for you to manage this. However, if you practice the timing and know what you're doing in boss fights, the trinket is still going to be awesome.

    As for comparing the stone and DMC: Volcano, that intellect proc happens often, and you still get some haste out of DMC through reforging. Int > haste, so go with Volcano.

    ---------- Post added 2011-06-04 at 11:02 AM ----------

    A little addendum: I'm also an alchemist, and I've never seen that mirror drop. It is SO aggravating.

    ---------- Post added 2011-06-05 at 02:37 AM ----------

    So no one did the math, and it was beginning to bug me.

    At level 85, we get...
    1 point of mastery per 179.28 mastery rating. (For every 1 mastery, our ES gets 1.3% increased DoT damage)
    1% haste per 128.125 haste rating
    1 Spellpower and 15 mana per 1 Intellect (and also 1% crit per 648.91 Intellect)

    So let's look at the trinkets again. Important flat (constant) increases are bolded, procs are italicized for easy comparisons.

    Theralion's Mirror:
    321 Intellect (flat increase): 321 SP, 4815 mana, and .495% crit
    1926 Mastery rating for 20 seconds every 90 seconds: 10.743 Mastery for 20 seconds every 90 seconds: 13.97% increased DoT damage from ES when refreshed during those 20 seconds (maximum stronger ES lasting 35 seconds), occurring every 90 seconds.
    I won't do a flat out average (splitting the amount over the 90 seconds) because this mechanic is very dependent on how efficiently you refresh, and since we're not perfect, it'd be meaningless.

    DMC: Volcano (reforged to 193 Mastery and 128 haste from original)
    193 Mastery rating (flat increase): 1.077 Mastery: 1.399% damage increase from ES
    128 Haste rating (flat increase): 0.999% haste
    1600 Int for 12 seconds every 45 seconds: 1600 SP, 24k mana, 2.466% crit for 12 seconds every 45 seconds: 426.667 SP and .658% crit average with maximum uptime on proc (triggering at ICD of 45 seconds, which is not that far off if you have excellent DoT uptime)

    Vibrant Alchemist Stone:
    351 Intellect (flat increase): 351 SP, 5265 mana, 0.541% crit
    194 Haste rating (flat increase): 1.514% haste

    I'm not going to use some arbitrary gear set to give a set scale for the stats, but I will use one as an example. The reason is basically that scaling is entirely dependent on what gear you as an individual have. However, the general trend for scaling is Intellect/SP > Haste > Spirit/Hit > Crit > Mastery as long as you're below hit cap. There are little haste bumps when you get a new tic for a DoT, and hit scaling can go crazy if you're just below hit cap, but for most spriests, that trend is true. THE EXACT NUMBERS VARY.

    Using Best In Slot (BIS) 372 ilevel Items:
    		Int	Spi	SP	Hit	Crit	Haste	Mastery
    Scale Factors	3.3311	1.4346	2.5707	1.4433	1.4760	1.7975	1.4218
    Normalized	1.0000	0.4307	0.7717	0.4333	0.4431	0.5396	0.4268
    *accurate to http://chardev.org/?profile=18129 as of February 10, 2011. Subject to change. Tests are without Focus Magic and Dark Intent.
    -Taken from the Shadow PVE Guide sticky again (note that in this comparison, spirit/hit is below crit (not the usual scaling), but it doesn't change anything for comparing these trinkets because none of them have spirit/hit anyway)

    Don't take these numbers as true for all gear and spriests, but focus on something specific. On the second line, when normalized, Intellect is worth more than double all the other stats (except haste, but only by .03). This means that 1 intellect would be worth more than 2 of any of the other stats (except haste). The differences between all the secondary stats are very small in comparison to that ratio. So while 1 haste is definitely worth more than 1 mastery, 2 mastery is worth more than 1 haste. An easier way to think about it is as monetary currency; the American Dollar is worth more than a Canadian Dollar, but nowhere near as much as the English pound. The exact amount each is worth varies by day (the exact scaling of each stat varies by shadow gear sets), but they are comparable in specific instances.

    Thus, in order of importance, we want the 2 of these 3 trinkets that have Intellect > Haste > Crit > Mastery, but higher amounts of the less important stats can outweigh a more valuable stat.

    So after all that confusing BS, let's compare the stats and hope you're not totally lost.

    The mirror gives a flat increase of 321 SP and .495% crit, plus 13.97% DoT damage increase from ES for however long you can keep that empowered ES going (20-35 seconds of stronger ES, possible 20-57ish seconds for individual DoTs), occurring every 90 seconds. That's a pretty sick damage increase, and if you're good, it happens about half the time for 2 DoTs (assuming you can maximize the gains for DP and VT), and about 1/3 the time for MF and SW: P. That's not even including the 20 seconds of stronger MB with orbs, but I don't feel like doing the probability math for how many orbs you could get for each MB as well as how many MB you should cast in those 20 seconds.

    Onto DMC: Volcano. 1.399% DoT damage increase from ES, .999% haste increase, and an average of 426.667 SP and .658% crit increase with maximum uptime on proc. I know from experience that DMC: Volcano typically procs right with Power Torrent because they have the same ICD, giving you some awesome instances of OP refreshes. The procs also typically occur right after the ICD comes up because they proc from damage done (as does TM); this means that the DoTs you already have on a target will make the proc occur, so if you're good about your DoT uptime already, then it should be going off without a hitch.

    Alchemist Stone: 351 SP, 0.541% crit, and 1.514% haste flat increases. No procs.

    Thus, by taking the mirror over the stone, you are losing out on 30 (yes, thirty) SP, .046% crit, and 1.514% haste (194 haste rating) flat out, but you gain 13.97% DoT damage and bonus MB+orb damage for at least 20 seconds every 90 seconds, with a maximum gain of that damage on 2 DoTs (MF and SW: P) for ~35 seconds, and 2 other DoTs (DP and VT) for ~48 and ~57 seconds. That is a sick amount of damage bonus and seems well worth the trade if you use it effectively.

    By taking DMC: Volcano over the stone, you lose out on 0.515% haste (66 haste rating) flat out, but you gain 1.399% DoT damage from ES and average 75.667 more SP and .117% more crit with optimum uptime from the proc. SP scales higher than Haste, so the average SP gain alone justifies the trade, so the bonus from ES and the little extra crit just make it sweeter.

    Assuming my math wasn't total BS (and that it being so early in the morning didn't make me wonky), this should show that both TM and DMC: Volcano are definitely better than the Vibrant Alchemist Stone if you know what you're doing when they proc. Understanding the mechanics is utterly vital to using them to their full potential, and it is entirely feasible for an ignorant spriest to do less DPS with TM than VAS. If you want to see a DPS increase with TM, you have to practice and pay close attention.

    And now, bedtime!
    Last edited by Zuziza; 2011-06-05 at 09:49 AM.

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