The League of Legends thread

[Firebert]

...aaaaand?

Larger sample base means more accurate correllation between win rate and how powerful/underpowered the champion is.

[Duilliath]

Larger sample base means more accurate correllation between win rate and how powerful/underpowered the champion is.

No.

A champion gets nerfed, the best players rotate to a champion that isn't nerfed in the same position.

A champion appears to be OP, people pick him despite not knowing how to play merely on account of 'having it on their team'.

A champion could have a 40% win rate... due to him losing all top lane match ups but winning all jungle match ups.

Dignitas went 0-2 in the tournament. Clearly their poor w/l rate means they suck. Until you realise they are among the best 8 teams in the USA.

Two champs could be @ 50% win rate, with the rest sitting @ 10%. It'd be the 50% win rate champs that are OP - despite having a 'perfect' W/L ratio.

Heimerdinger had a 100% WL rate in one of the latest tournaments. He's still in a pretty darn bad shape.

W/L Rate *at best* is one of many data points you could use.

[Deleted]

win/loss (popularity) has nothing at all to do with balance.

There's a guy who's like 10/0 win/loss or smth in ranked playing Karma. Clearly Karma is op.

[Firebert]

A champion gets nerfed, the best players rotate to a champion that isn't nerfed in the same position.

A champion appears to be OP, people pick him despite not knowing how to play merely on account of 'having it on their team'.

These cancel each other out, along with nerfed champions still being picked because players know that champion better than an alternative and people playing OP champions well.

Dignitas went 0-2 in the tournament. Clearly their poor w/l rate means they suck. Until you realise they are among the best 8 teams in the USA.

2 games isn't a good sample size.

Two champs could be @ 50% win rate, with the rest sitting @ 10%. It'd be the 50% win rate champs that are OP - despite having a 'perfect' W/L ratio.

The win rate of all champions must average 50%, hence your situation never occurs.

Heimerdinger had a 100% WL rate in one of the latest tournaments. He's still in a pretty darn bad shape.

One tournament isn't a good sample size.

[Deleted]

Dignitas went 0-2 in the tournament. Clearly their poor w/l rate means they suck. Until you realise they are among the best 8 teams in the USA.

Heimerdinger had a 100% WL rate in one of the latest tournaments. He's still in a pretty darn bad shape.

W/L Rate *at best* is one of many data points you could use.

Those two data points have super low sample size, which is one of the reasons why they can´t be used to prove anything, as the quoted post says.

I´d say you have to take the win rates with a grain of salt, but they arn´t useless for proving what champion is OP. A lot of people pick Karma to troll. A lot of people take their role with "diving the AD carry" too litterally when playing Olaf, thus overextending. Urgot is hard to play and needs very specific supports. Those are all reasons why champions have low win rates.

On the other hand a lot of champions have had ridiculously high win rates as a direct result of them being OP. Ezreals 60% win rate, Amumu and Evelynn have both been significantly over 50% as a result of being too strong.

---------- Post added 2013-02-17 at 06:46 PM ----------

win/loss (popularity) has nothing at all to do with balance.

I don´t understand how win/loss has anything to do with popularity.

[Deleted]

No.

A champion gets nerfed, the best players rotate to a champion that isn't nerfed in the same position.

A champion appears to be OP, people pick him despite not knowing how to play merely on account of 'having it on their team'.

A champion could have a 40% win rate... due to him losing all top lane match ups but winning all jungle match ups.

Dignitas went 0-2 in the tournament. Clearly their poor w/l rate means they suck. Until you realise they are among the best 8 teams in the USA.

Two champs could be @ 50% win rate, with the rest sitting @ 10%. It'd be the 50% win rate champs that are OP - despite having a 'perfect' W/L ratio.

Heimerdinger had a 100% WL rate in one of the latest tournaments. He's still in a pretty darn bad shape.

W/L Rate *at best* is one of many data points you could use.

win/loss (popularity) has nothing at all to do with balance.

There's a guy who's like 10/0 win/loss or smth in ranked playing Karma. Clearly Karma is op.

You are missing the entire point of what "big data pool" means. If Dignitas went 0-1 000 000 it would mean they are bad. If Heimer was picked in 1 000 000 matches in one of latest tournaments and still had 100% win rate he would not be in pretty darn bad shape. If that guy had 1 000 000/0 win/loss or smth in ranked playing Karma she clearly would be op. Using obviously wrong statistics drawn from data pool of one or two instances as a way to prove that statistics drawn from data pool of millions of instances is an inaccurate is a fallacy.

[Firebert]

There's a guy who's like 10/0 win/loss or smth in ranked playing Karma. Clearly Karma is op.

There's probably also three guys going 0/5 with Karma. Clearly Karma is UP.

---------- Post added 2013-02-17 at 05:50 PM ----------

I don´t understand how win/loss has anything to do with popularity.

This gives me an idea for a graph. :3

[Deleted]

They might not mean much but they do mean something. You can't say that a champ goes from 50% win rate to 30% and "nothing changed".

Either people aren't used yet to the changes or the champ got hit heavy. Or everytime someone plays a Olaf, the rest of their team feeds!

[Deleted]

Larger sample base means more accurate correllation between win rate and how powerful/underpowered the champion is.

Except there are more factors than strength when it comes to who wins the most games. (Protip: Look at Meepo/Tinker/Chen/Alch/Ursa, the list just goes on, Jesus.)

[Firebert]

Here's a graph. Popularity along the bottom. Win rate up the side.

[Duilliath]

Then let me try it like this:

http://www.lolking.net/champions/ashe#statistics

She has not had a balancing change in ages, other than the *upcoming* AS buff. Her W/L Ratio changes.

http://www.lolking.net/champions/fiora#statistics

What nerf did Fiora get that she dropped 8% W/L since her previous peak?

I used those small numbers to illustrate that W/L ratios do not tell all. Not to illustrate that small numbers are weirder than bigger.

http://www.lolking.net/champions/syndra#statistics

Syndra's Winrate went from 37.5% to 45.5% over night and then petered off again.

The win rate of all champions must average 50%, hence your situation never occurs.

That assumes champions match up against each other. They do not do so always. Additionally, you're overlooking popularity in that context, as here it would matter. If two champions are *so* powerful, they would choke out nearly all over champions, getting a 100% presence rate in games. The remaining win% would be fairly random distribution in games where those champions are banned.

[Thallidomaniac]

http://www.lolking.net/champions/fiora#statistics

What nerf did Fiora get that she dropped 8% W/L since her previous peak?

Currently, Fiora is on the free week roster. As she's a champion that's easy to counterpick against, even in blind pick, (Jax and Teemo would see lots of blind pick play, even moreso because Teemo is free as well, heck even Karma and Heimerdinger are counterpicks to her somewhat) and is reliant on snowballing, explains that drop.

She wasn't nerfed at all though. The current meta is still not melee ADC friendly.

[Duilliath]

I know she did not get nerfed.

Point was to illustrate that W/L ratios aren't the sole determiner for whether a champion is OP or not.

[Deleted]

Peaks and valleys like that happen when you take compare statistics day to day. Draw an average win ratio from the latest change to today and compare it to the average from the change before that to it - and that's a viable comparison(preferably do so while excluding the free week periods.).

I am not saying w/l ratio is everything - do not try to prove it means nothing by using it improperly, though.

[Duilliath]

No, but people get so hung up on WL ratios they forget what they actually mean.

[SageKalzi]

Because, Monado, it likely has nothing to do with league. I've got to voice my opinion, since the 900 or so pages mark, the consistency of league related topics has fallen drastically. It'd be nice if the anime or manga related topics be kept in their respective forums, no? At first it was like, " Oh, a little here and there is fine" but half pages gets a bit much

Basically this. I have been coming to this thread on and off for a few months or so and just about every time I seem to see a bunch of stuff that I have always found to be annoying, so I finally spoke out. plus the guy admitted to going to manga/anime threads and there not being a lot of that language being spoken, well that doesn't mean it fits in a completely different thread.

On topic from two pages ago, why haven't they nerfed nitalee's spear? Seems to be one of the more overpowered skills mid game to late game.

[Deleted]

Because Nidalee's spear is in fact not overpowered.

[SargorVirm]

tbh, there arent really THAT many OP ranged abilities in the game atm. if they are ranged skillshots, then you dodge them. plain and simple. all the skillshots have the dumb "invis bug" but thats not OP, thats a bug. Nid spears are particularly slow, and are hard to land if u have proper map awareness. I actually cant think of an OP ranged poke ability in the game atm.

[Thallidomaniac]

Basically this. I have been coming to this thread on and off for a few months or so and just about every time I seem to see a bunch of stuff that I have always found to be annoying, so I finally spoke out. plus the guy admitted to going to manga/anime threads and there not being a lot of that language being spoken, well that doesn't mean it fits in a completely different thread.

On topic from two pages ago, why haven't they nerfed nitalee's spear? Seems to be one of the more overpowered skills mid game to late game.

In terms of teamfighting ability, she only has her poke and her heal. Going in and DPSing in cougar form is usually suicide for an AP Nidalee, and even as tanky AD Nid is stilll lackluster.

[Deleted]

Basically this. I have been coming to this thread on and off for a few months or so and just about every time I seem to see a bunch of stuff that I have always found to be annoying, so I finally spoke out. plus the guy admitted to going to manga/anime threads and there not being a lot of that language being spoken, well that doesn't mean it fits in a completely different thread.

I said it to explain that even there, not much Japanese/Romanji is being spoken. Here are some random people that find it amusing to use it to talk to eachother, which usually isn't even important for you to read. Why should you be annoyed by something you can just scroll past? Honestly, I don't think using 30 seconds of your time to scroll down to actual comments related to LoL must be so tiring for you to complain about it.