The League of Legends thread

[Deleted]

Utter bullshit. Unless you aim to instantly be a 2500 diamond player after getting your account to 30 the IP you made while leveling is enough for all the basic necessities(Generic AP/AD runepages and a couple champions they liked playing in free rotation)

I donno about you but having to grind so I can have a jungler runepage or a top runepage still makes it far from the best system. (Especially with some runes arbitrarily costing a lot more)

Sorry, but I do not know any other F2P game that offers service THIS good without being P2Win.

Defense of the Ancients 2.
Arguably Team Fortress2, though the system is nearly the same. I'd say it's better because the grind isn't nearly as much.

Hm, never thought of it, but now that you mention it, I doubt there will be an option for that. *.*

Shucks, I really prefer the old UI.

[Tradu]

For the sake of anecdotal evidence you can call bullshit on: neither me nor any of friends I play with ever paid RP for anything except skins (Well, that and a small IP boost with leftover RP after buying Foxfire Ahri recently.). I've been playing for more than a year(well, nearly 3 years if you count the 2 years break after I got to level 3 and got bored with it.), they around the same.

More anecdotal evidence:
I'm 1k xp off 30, I have 2 full runepages(generic AP and generic jungle), not sure how many champions I've bought with IP, because I have 52 champions atm after having bought 2 bundles and a few 6,3k champs for RP while on sale, but Nunu, Garen, Ashe, Lulu, Heimerdinger, Sivir, Ryze and Soraka were definately bought with IP.
I've bought 1 1-day XP and IP boost, won about 10 games with that active. So its definitely possible to get to 30 with 2 rune pages and ~10 champions(not counting Tristana and Alistar), which is more than enough to keep playing at 30 to get the last few champions needed to start playing ranked(need 16, right?). Its not like going into ranked just as you hit 30 is a good idea anyway, because the other people will most likely be much more experienced than you.
And you'll get runepages for other roles just by playing the game.

EDIT: I only started really playing LoL this summer, because Dragon Soul was getting boring and my friends asked me to give it another try(tried it a year or so earlier, but didn't like it)

[Kurdiern]

Utter bullshit. Unless you aim to instantly be a 2500 diamond player after getting your account to 30 the IP you made while leveling is enough for all the basic necessities(Generic AP/AD runepages and a couple champions they liked playing in free rotation) a new player is ever going to need. As you play more and gather experience needed to go further up the ladder you earn the IP needed for more specialized pages, champions etc - and still don't need to spend a single Euro. You can play LoL for years without being at disadvantage at ALL despite not spending a dime on it - and you get service better than numerous P2P games offer - customer support, updates, patches, all the shit.

Sorry, but I do not know any other F2P game that offers service THIS good without being P2Win.


For the sake of anecdotal evidence you can call bullshit on: neither me nor any of friends I play with ever paid RP for anything except skins (Well, that and a small IP boost with leftover RP after buying Foxfire Ahri recently.). I've been playing for more than a year(well, nearly 3 years if you count the 2 years break after I got to level 3 and got bored with it.), they around the same.

OH BOY LONG POST TIME!

I'm sorry, but are you joking? It isn't that difficult to realize. We're talking strictly about the point Lycoris made. In order to get the two core necessities for League of Legends, Champions and Runes, you either have to Grind/Buy and Grind respectively. It's 1st grade reading comprehension.

You can play LoL for years without being at a disadvantage? Are you kidding? The guy who has played for 2 years and has bought everything with IP can literally be on the same ground (HELL EVEN LOWER) as the guy who bought all his champs with RP and the rest on runes, allowing him since he has two currencies to accomplish what you did in like a quarter/half the time and possibly more.

Champions. The basic necessity for an ARTS. You need to grind the IP to buy them or purchase RP to get them. Their mid picked Orianna? Hey, Diana would be a perfect counterpick! Oops, I haven't grinded the necessary amount of IP to buy her yet! Either I pay buy her, or am unable to use a BASIC NECESSITY OF AN ARTS (The champions.) The fact that you DON'T OWN ALL THE CHAMPIONS means you HAVE TO PAY OR GRIND FOR THEM.

Runes are a customization and in LoL, a basic necessity. Want to know how you get them? By fucking grinding IP.
>Grind/pay for basic necessities
Oh look, their last pick decided to go Leblanc against my AP Mid. Well I'm fucked. Oh wait, I've been playing this game for a year and a half and have a full runepage of MR called "Fuck you LB!" Looks like this isn't going to be so bad! That player who has only been playing for half a year? Yeah, chances are he DOESN'T have that, meaning in that situation, he is at a disadvantage. The fact you need to grind and pay for the option to customize your loadout means that people who play longer will always have more of an advantage, since they will have earned more IP to have possibly spent on Runes (and champions).

You really can't think of another game similar to this? One that is actually completely F2P and offers just as good if not better service? Think harder. It's pretty commonly quoted and compared to LoL because hey, it does a lot of things MUCH BETTER. That game is called Dota 2. You are NEVER at a disadvantage in Dota 2 due to outside circumstances. The only disadvantage you can ever blame is on YOURSELF. There is no "I didn't have this champion. I don't have these runes." The playing field is 100% even and the only thing that dictates how the game is played is the skill of the player. In terms of service? Guess what, all of PC gaming loves to praise and suck of Valve because god knows they deserve it. Guess what Dota 2 did for Halloween this year. An entirely new custom map you could que for that rewarded you with new/unique cosmetics simply for playing the game (Which happens in regular que also.). The ONLY THING you can purchase at all in Dota 2 are cosmetic items. And hell, you don't even need to purchase them! You're rewarded for playing the game, not forced to grind it.

Also when did fucking basic services like updating the game and having a customer support become an amazing thing worthy writing home about? Isn't that basic customer service 101 and in the first chapter of "How to avoid running a company like a retard?"

Also your anecdotal evidence. Does absolutely nothing. Cool. You've never bought anything asides cosmetics with RP. So what. This fact alone tells us absolutely NOTHING and has no relevance at all. I drank milk this morning.

[Tradu]

OH BOY LONG POST TIME!

It does add something that(to me) is quite important: a sense of progression. Maybe its not great to have in a highly competitive "balanced" PvP game, but I like having something to work towards other than "higher ELO".
Not saying buying RP doesn't give an advantage, it definately does, but the only RP-exclusive stuff is cosmetic, which makes LoLs F2P model much better than most other F2P games on the market. Can't say anything about LoLs model vs DotA2s model, because while I have DotA2 downloaded, I haven't actually bothered trying it yet.

[Kurdiern]

It does add something that(to me) is quite important: a sense of progression. Maybe its not great to have in a highly competitive "balanced" PvP game, but I like having something to work towards other than "higher ELO".
Not saying buying RP doesn't give an advantage, it definately does, but the only RP-exclusive stuff is cosmetic, which makes LoLs F2P model much better than most other F2P games on the market. Can't say anything about LoLs model vs DotA2s model, because while I have DotA2 downloaded, I haven't actually bothered trying it yet.

This is a ARTS, not RPG. While levels exist in both LoL and Dota 2, there are differences. LoL levels are essentially a long and hidden tutorial that exist because that is all Riot has in terms of teaching someone how to play. While some might prefer the LoL levels for that long hidden tutorial, I find it pointless and a massive waste of time. Dota 2 will already have Tutorials, Customizable Custom Games (Change gold amount, heroes in games, WTF mode, cheats, etc...) A Mentor/Tutor System, and Bots. In Dota 2 levels exist only to show the amount of time you have played. In addition you get a guaranteed cosmetic item after each level, meaning that a level up will always be relevant and exciting.

Cosmetics and real money is pretty much the exact same in Dota 2, check my post. In Dota 2 you get cosmetic items through 4 ways: Getting an item after a game, getting a treasure chest (they are modeled after what the chest contains; chests containing items for a specific hero will be styled after their respective heroes) after a game where you can buy a treasure key for $2.49 to open te chest, trading through Steam, or just straight up buying the item in the store like in LoL. The only difference is that in Dota 2 you have more than one way to obtain cosmetics.

[Deleted]

They've literally dropped the ball and suddenly we're being entitled? Am I entitled for expecting presents on my birthday like I get every year?

I normally find your posts quite thoughtful and good reads, but this one I fully disagree with.

If you fully expect presents on a birthday, I would put that under entitlement. No-one owes me shit. If someone feels like giving me a present, I like it and I appreciate it. If they don't, I couldn't care less. Why should someone EXPECT to be given presents at birthdays? Because you managed to survive another year. Big fucking deal. It's mostly bad though if someone would get MAD about not getting his presents...which to me is about the same situation as the one we're discussing about Riot.

And don't give me the: 'everyone does it, so it's normal'.

P.S. This post might sound more 'mean' than I intended it to be, but I'm having troubles finding the right words. I don't mean it as a personal attack. I just really think it's Riot's own business whether they should have a sale or not. Same with wardskins. Would I buy them if they were permanent? Yup. Am I mad they're not permanent? Nope, it's Riot's own decision, I'm not buying them, but hey, that's what free will's for.

So it's not that I don't agree that they didn't drop the ball, I think they missed out on a lot of profit. But anyone who's MAD at them for doing that I don't have much respect for.

[Duilliath]

Wait... so playing a game you enjoy playing ... is grinding?

Guess I been doing something wrong there, I just been playing it because it's been fun and the IP's been a nice side-product.

Mind you, I've got 12 filled Rune Pages by now.

[NotValidAnymore]

How did "no Black Friday sale" spark this whole discussion? Wow.

I have to agree that they really dropped the ball on this one. They're supposed to be the "#1 game in the world", yet with their HUGE American fanbase, going "black friday? lol wut" is just a really stupid move as a business. They could have made a lot of money off of it.

Also, since Drathos mentioned "sense of progression", I'll just get this off my chest now: a lot of people tend to let the "sense of progression" get in the way of the true meaning of games sometimes... which is having fun. You don't need progress to have fun, and there's no point in progress if you don't have fun, in my opinion.
(And I use the word "opinion" very loosely, I'm not afraid of being told I'm wrong like so many people are, which annoys me.)

[Deleted]

The problem with their games is not the games but the platform (steam*** **** ** ****), in the end you have to pay for very basic things. But a bit more on-topic - was there any info about winter map skin? That's kinda thing that was there last year, but with that texture rework...

[Kurdiern]

I normally find your posts quite thoughtful and good reads, but this one I fully disagree with.

If you fully expect presents on a birthday, I would put that under entitlement. No-one owes me shit. If someone feels like giving me a present, I like it and I appreciate it. If they don't, I couldn't care less. Why should someone EXPECT to be given presents at birthdays? Because you managed to survive another year. Big fucking deal.

And don't give me the: 'everyone does it, so it's normal'.

P.S. This post might sound more 'mean' than I intended it to be, but I'm having troubles finding the right words. I don't mean it as a personal attack. I just really think it's Riot's own business whether they should have a sale or not. Same with wardskins. Would I buy them if they were permanent? Yup. Am I mad they're not permanent? Nope, it's Riot's own decision, I'm not buying them, but hey, that's what free will's for.

You bet you're ass I'm going to give it to you. It's more of a "I've gotten B-day presents for the past 15 years. It's an unspoken rule in society that B-Day = B-Bday Presents." By the same regard, Riot has for the past two years provided us with a service that is in line with what is expected in society as well as cementing it as an expected occasion coming from them. Sales on Black Friday, Runes on Halloween, a celebration for their anniversary, etc. An entitlement would be expecting special privileges. Black Friday Sale isn't a special privilege, it's something that Riot has done for the past two years and something that generally all of America does. Riot has done Black Friday sales 2 years in a row, and on Black Friday, companies/retailers engage in massive sales. Giving this knowledge, would it not be expected that Riot would have done a Black Friday sale this year?

Once again, I agree, this sale is Riot's deciscion. Am I going to throw a fit and demand they give me a sale on the forums? Nah. Am I going to think this is an incredibly foolish decision in which both Riot and the Players miss out? Yup.

@ Dulliath

Grinding doesn't have to be bad. Right now I have no need for any specific runes or champions, so I have no goal in which to grind IP for. I'm playing the game, having fun, and getting IP as a bonus. 2 weeks ago, however, I desired Syndra, and only had 200 IP. I didn't want to spend RP, and naturally you want the object of your desire as quickly as possible, so I did have to basically grind out 6.1k IP for her. I did basically have to que and que and que as much as I could in a long, repetitive session. It was a grind. Whether or not I enjoyed that Grind is another topic (Some grind sessions are good, others aren't).

The fact remains that if I want to get a full rune page or a champion, I have to invest a significant amount of time just to get what should be a standard and basic necessity in an ARTS. The playing field is not leveled, and either those with more time or those with more money will in the end have the advantage. This game IS arguably Pay to Win.

[Deleted]

Yep , I'd like black friday too. But I can wait untill January.

Over black friday I'd prefer achievements :P Soooo much can be done with this tab! But I know it's not happening anytime soon

[Unholyground]

On a non black Friday League of Legends Note.

The newest support champion to join the League is Nami, the Tidecaller. A water caster who channels the primal energies of the ocean, Nami harnesses water’s restorative properties and commands the raw power of the tides themselves.

http://riot-web-static.s3.amazonaws....ami_Render.png

Abilities:

Surging Tides (Passive): Allied champions affected by Nami’s abilities have their movement speeds increased for a short duration.

Aqua Prison: Nami sends a bubble of water into the air to a targeted location that deals magic damage and displaces enemies hit by the bubble.

Ebb and Flow: Unleashes a surge of water that can target an enemy or allied champion. The water can bounce from champion to champion and deals magic damage to enemy champions and heals allied champions.

Tidecaller’s Blessing: Nami buffs an allied champion, adding extra magic damage and a slow to their attacks.

Tidal Wave: Nami summons a massive Tidal Wave from her position. The wave deals magic damage and slows all enemy units it passes through. Enemies closest to the initial spawn point are slowed for a shorter duration than those farther away, but all are slowed for a significant length of time and Tidal Wave has a large range.


As a support with powerful crowd control abilities, Nami’s kit gives her the potential to impact every phase of your games. In lane, Nami excels at applying constant pressure to the enemy. The buffs provided by Tidecaller’s Blessing allow her lane partner to come out ahead in exchanges, and the long-distance stun from Aqua Prison can keep low health enemies from engaging safely. Moreover, because her healing skill also bounces to damage nearby enemies, Nami’s core support abilities work best when her partner is on the attack.

In the mid game, when teamfights become more frequent, the utility of Ebb and Flow increases. The more champions the wave can bounce to, the more efficient it becomes. You can use Aqua Prison and Tidal Wave to disrupt opponents’ positioning with stuns and slows, and take advantage of her passive combined with Tidecaller’s Blessing to help chase down a fleeing enemy champion.

With her potent combination of crowd control and buffs, Nami continues to have a substantial presence in team fights once the transition is made to the late game. Even though she’s not on the front lines dishing out damage, Nami becomes a fantastic initiator through the range of her ultimate. The enormous distance covered by the rushing Tidal Wave can easily force a teamfight, or allow her team to disengage while their opponents are slowed under the weight of the tide.



Balancing her offensive capabilities and defensive utility will be crucial to success with Nami. Learn to ride the rolling wave, and you may find your team swimming to victory.

*As with any champion, Nami’s abilities may change before release.

[Deleted]

OH BOY LONG POST TIME!

Woooooow, sooo much hate, so much aggression further on in there. Chill, man.

I'm sorry, but are you joking? It isn't that difficult to realize. We're talking strictly about the point Lycoris made. In order to get the two core necessities for League of Legends, Champions and Runes, you either have to Grind/Buy and Grind respectively. It's 1st grade reading comprehension.

NOPE. You do not get to take out a single point made in a discussion and separate it from the context so as to downplay what the other party says to idiocy. They don't teach this in 1st grade, I guess, but you should have learned it by now if you want to actually discuss things on the forums, not troll and flame.

Let me explain on what's been going on here: I called bullshit on calling Riot greedy by declaring their F2P model as the best. Lycoris called me on that, which I understand as implying Riot's F2P is actually Pay2Win(If I made a misunderstanding here we can forfeit any further discussion as I have no desire to convince anyone LoL's payment model is better than the one in xxx or in yyy. What I am defending is the fact it's F2P, and in a very good model.). In that context I further understand the "grind/pay for basic necessities" phrase as "Either pay or grind for unreasonable, excessive amounts of time - the thing observed in Pay2Win games.

Following me so far?

Good, let's go on.

You can play LoL for years without being at a disadvantage? Are you kidding? The guy who has played for 2 years and has bought everything with IP can literally be on the same ground (HELL EVEN LOWER) as the guy who bought all his champs with RP and the rest on runes, allowing him since he has two currencies to accomplish what you did in like a quarter/half the time and possibly more.

Champions. The basic necessity for an ARTS. You need to grind the IP to buy them or purchase RP to get them. Their mid picked Orianna? Hey, Diana would be a perfect counterpick! Oops, I haven't grinded the necessary amount of IP to buy her yet! Either I pay buy her, or am unable to use a BASIC NECESSITY OF AN ARTS (The champions.) The fact that you DON'T OWN ALL THE CHAMPIONS means you HAVE TO PAY OR GRIND FOR THEM.

Runes are a customization and in LoL, a basic necessity. Want to know how you get them? By fucking grinding IP.
>Grind/pay for basic necessities
Oh look, their last pick decided to go Leblanc against my AP Mid. Well I'm fucked. Oh wait, I've been playing this game for a year and a half and have a full runepage of MR called "Fuck you LB!" Looks like this isn't going to be so bad! That player who has only been playing for half a year? Yeah, chances are he DOESN'T have that, meaning in that situation, he is at a disadvantage. The fact you need to grind and pay for the option to customize your loadout means that people who play longer will always have more of an advantage, since they will have earned more IP to have possibly spent on Runes (and champions).

What I mean here, and what you seem to either ignore in favour of throwing thinly veiled insults at me or to not notice, is that buying champions or boosts with RP will not actually put you at an advantage in the game. If 2 experienced players face off they will both have all the runes needed regardless of any IP boosts and RP champions and the only difference between RP guy and F2P guy will be amount of champions - but then again, if they are both experienced the F2P guy will have all his bases covered anyway, seeing as every champion has at least a few counters and a ton champions that can play an equal lane vs him. The same goes for newbies - even if one of players has more champions and runes the ground is still equal. F2P newbie has all the necessary runes anyway, as you can get them while getting to 30, and at newbie level counterpicks matter much, much less than actual skill.

What do you want to say in your example? That a guy who has played for 2 years, with a thousand or two of wins behind under belt, is on equal ground(or even at a disadvantage) with a fresh 30 who bought all champions with RP and thanks to that has all the runes? That's plain wrong. You can't buy your way to skill or knowledge how to use all those champions. All RP offers is convenience and a shortcut to things you would have gotten anyway while normally playing the game if you choose to use it that way.


Just to sum you up: you yell GRIND GRIND GRIND GRIND OR PAYYYYY - how about we replace word "grind" with "play"? Because all this demonic "grind" is you normally playing the game. If you hate it enough to forget you are actually playing a game for fun then maybe you should be doing something else entirely...?

You really can't think of another game similar to this? One that is actually completely F2P and offers just as good if not better service? Think harder. It's pretty commonly quoted and compared to LoL because hey, it does a lot of things MUCH BETTER. That game is called Dota 2. You are NEVER at a disadvantage in Dota 2 due to outside circumstances. The only disadvantage you can ever blame is on YOURSELF. There is no "I didn't have this champion. I don't have these runes." The playing field is 100% even and the only thing that dictates how the game is played is the skill of the player. In terms of service? Guess what, all of PC gaming loves to praise and suck of Valve because god knows they deserve it. Guess what Dota 2 did for Halloween this year. An entirely new custom map you could que for that rewarded you with new/unique cosmetics simply for playing the game (Which happens in regular que also.). The ONLY THING you can purchase at all in Dota 2 are cosmetic items. And hell, you don't even need to purchase them! You're rewarded for playing the game, not forced to grind it.

Also when did fucking basic services like updating the game and having a customer support become an amazing thing worthy writing home about? Isn't that basic customer service 101 and in the first chapter of "How to avoid running a company like a retard?"

It's cool how much you love DOTA2. I'll still wait with decision on how good it's model and execution is until after it has actually been fully released. It's easy to praise the game to heavens during the development, but if DOTA2 goes into the direction TF2 went I can see champions randomly unlocked during playing unless you pay for a key. >.>

Also your anecdotal evidence. Does absolutely nothing. Cool. You've never bought anything asides cosmetics with RP. So what. This fact alone tells us absolutely NOTHING and has no relevance at all. I drank milk this morning.

All it's meant to show it that it's absolutely normal to play LoL without spending anything on it and never feel disadvantaged.

[Deleted]

You bet you're ass I'm going to give it to you. It's more of a "I've gotten B-day presents for the past 15 years. It's an unspoken rule in society that B-Day = B-Bday Presents." By the same regard, Riot has for the past two years provided us with a service that is in line with what is expected in society as well as cementing it as an expected occasion coming from them. Sales on Black Friday, Runes on Halloween, a celebration for their anniversary, etc. An entitlement would be expecting special privileges. Black Friday Sale isn't a special privilege, it's something that Riot has done for the past two years and something that generally all of America does. Riot has done Black Friday sales 2 years in a row, and on Black Friday, companies/retailers engage in massive sales. Giving this knowledge, would it not be expected that Riot would have done a Black Friday sale this year?

Once again, I agree, this sale is Riot's deciscion. Am I going to throw a fit and demand they give me a sale on the forums? Nah. Am I going to think this is an incredibly foolish decision in which both Riot and the Players miss out? Yup.

I edited my post before I saw you already posted (where I added some 'errata' sentences). I think we actually kind of agree, so I wouldn't call YOU entitled (as you pointed out that you think it's a mistake on Riot's part, but you're not throwing a fit). Would you agree however with me that the people that DO actually throw a fit, are acting 'entitled'?

That would be my definition at least.

[Deleted]

Let me explain on what's been going on here: I called bullshit on calling Riot greedy by declaring their F2P model as the best. Lycoris called me on that, which I understand as implying Riot's F2P is actually Pay2Win

Well boom, there we go, discussion over.

That's plain wrong. You can't buy your way to skill or knowledge how to use all those champions. All RP offers is convenience and a shortcut to things you would have gotten anyway while normally playing the game if you choose to use it that way.

I'd say I'm experienced enough to play every champion at a reasonable level, yet I own less than half of them. To say that it's just a shortcut considering the absolutely immense amount of time it takes to buy them is ridiculous.

Just to sum you up: you yell GRIND GRIND GRIND GRIND OR PAYYYYY - how about we replace word "grind" with "play"? Because all this demonic "grind" is you normally playing the game. If you hate it enough to forget you are actually playing a game for fun then maybe you should be doing something else entirely...?

Case in point: I really wanted to play Yorick because he seemed fun but he was only on free week once every 6 months, the next time he was on free week I was absolutely swamped in schoolwork and could barely play at all, then I had to wait another 6 months or buy him blindly. Buying him blindly, he turned out to be far less fun than expected and I spent IP on something I could've used to get another champion like Diana. My fun was diminished because of the way the system works, that is why I call it a grind.

It's cool how much you love DOTA2. I'll still wait with decision on how good it's model and execution is until after it has actually been fully released. It's easy to praise the game to heavens during the development, but if DOTA2 goes into the direction TF2 went I can see champions randomly unlocked during playing unless you pay for a key. >.>

Considering they've confirmed that all heroes will always be free and that no Chinese player would ever switch (thus guaranteeing an absolutely massive loss of players) from Allstars to DotA 2, I'd say it's a safe bet that the hero pool will always be free.

[NotValidAnymore]

For fuck sake, I just got back from the Dota 2 megathread reading about two morons arguing, then I come here and people are still fucking arguing. Give it a god damn rest.

And leave the game rivalry for the console fanboys, we don't need that shit on the PC.

[Rampant Rabbit]

I'm going to enjoy reading this when I get back home from work :3

[Silent]

I am disapponted in the direction of the discussion. Right now im sitting at work hoping to be able to read a good 4 - 5 pages of entertaining debates, instead I see this... petty discussions and sales. I am sad MMO Champs.

OT - What is the MMO Champ club called in EuW west? Id like to start playing with some of you n00b lords if possible. If anyone is online send me a friends add, my username is Iilil ( ii L i L ). I got a Mumble Server ready which I would prefer to use ( and I also got a microphone )

[Rampant Rabbit]

I don't think there's any chatroom for EUW. I just entered Styles's chatroom a few weeks ago.

(It's Keko)

(iirc)

[Kurdiern]

Fatty long post.

NOPE. You do not get to take out a single point made in a discussion and separate it from the context so as to downplay what the other party says to idiocy. They don't teach this in 1st grade, I guess, but you should have learned it by now if you want to actually discuss things on the forums, not troll and flame.

Let me explain on what's been going on here: I called bullshit on calling Riot greedy by declaring their F2P model as the best. Lycoris called me on that, which I understand as implying Riot's F2P is actually Pay2Win(If I made a misunderstanding here we can forfeit any further discussion as I have no desire to convince anyone LoL's payment model is better than the one in xxx or in yyy. What I am defending is the fact it's F2P, and in a very good model.). In that context I further understand the "grind/pay for basic necessities" phrase as "Either pay or grind for unreasonable, excessive amounts of time - the thing observed in Pay2Win games.

No. Lycoris never called Riot greedy. You literally said

"Calling the company with the best F2P system in the world, ever, greedy."

Lycoris said challenged you on that claim it was the best F2P system in the world. He said NOTHING about Riot being greedy. He merely said that the fact you still have to Grind/Pay for the basic necessities of the game means that it ISN'T the best F2P since there is an actual game out there where all the content IS 100% free and available from the get go.

"I have no desire to convince anyone LoL's payment model is better than the one in xxx or in yyy."

Man, calling the company running the game with -best- F2P system in the world, ever, "greedy". What's next? EA for consumer-friendly company of year?

Then why would you even fucking say that in the first place?! I'M the one who believes (Not sure if Lycoris does, he has not stated) that while Riot's model technically is F2P in the sense that everything can be gotten for free, there is undoubtedly an advantage that can be gained from purchasing RP, making LoL a P2W game in some regards.

What I mean here, and what you seem to either ignore in favour of throwing thinly veiled insults at me or to not notice, is that buying champions or boosts with RP will not actually put you at an advantage in the game. If 2 experienced players face off they will both have all the runes needed regardless of any IP boosts and RP champions and the only difference between RP guy and F2P guy will be amount of champions - but then again, if they are both experienced the F2P guy will have all his bases covered anyway, seeing as every champion has at least a few counters and a ton champions that can play an equal lane vs him. The same goes for newbies - even if one of players has more champions and runes the ground is still equal. F2P newbie has all the necessary runes anyway, as you can get them while getting to 30, and at newbie level counterpicks matter much, much less than actual skill.

Yes it will. There are over 100 champions in this game. Do you know how long it takes to buy all 100+ champions? All 100+ BASIC NECESSITIES IN AN ARTS? It takes a FUCKING LONG TIME. Your entire argument seems to revolve around the fact that we live in a world where there is no such thing as time. Where someone can grind out the necessary IP for every champion in the game in the same time it takes for someone to buy $500 in RP and buy every champion. While it is true that technically everything in this game gameplay wise is 100% attainable through IP only, the sheer possibility of that and the time it takes is so fucking ridiculous that ANYONE who decides to buy RP will be able to get everything he needs quicker.

Once again. Lysah said, "Grind/pay for basic necessities." You can replace Grind with pay, making it simply Pay/Pay. These Champions don't belong to you. You need to buy them. They aren't free, you need to spend time or money and then pay that money in a store to get all 100+ of them. How is that a free compared to Dota 2 where you have every champion 100% available to you from the beginning. The same things with runes. You still need to spend time and buy them from a store. You're paying Time, not Money. Why the fuck should you have to pay in the first place if this is supposed to be the "best f2p model" in the world? Just because something is the most popular does not mean it is the best.

Also, matchmaking isn't perfect. You will not be matched with someone who has the exact champions, the exact same runes as you. How do you KNOW that they both have all the runes they need? MM isn't perfect. Once again, the person who decided to buy with RP will have more IP to spend on Runes, meaning they will be better equipped to deal with any situation. Runes still create advantages and disadvantages. Try going against a LB with a full MR Page and watch in amazement how boring and easy it becomes to shut her down in her strongest phase.

What do you want to say in your example? That a guy who has played for 2 years, with a thousand or two of wins behind under belt, is on equal ground(or even at a disadvantage) with a fresh 30 who bought all champions with RP and thanks to that has all the runes? That's plain wrong. You can't buy your way to skill or knowledge how to use all those champions. All RP offers is convenience and a shortcut to things you would have gotten anyway while normally playing the game if you choose to use it that way.

Two players met in lobby. Both are say lvl 27. One bought a ton of champions with RP, the other didn't. Guess which one is going to have more flexibility and picking power. The one with RP, because with RP you can buy champions, who are literally the necessary component and power in this game. The more options you have, the more power you have.

Two experienced players meet, both have been playing a while. Once again, one bought most and more of his champions with RP. He has more choices. Also, because he has bought his champions with RP, he has had more IP to have spent in Runes. Once again, he has more picking power, more flexibility, more choices. He has an advantage.

Just to sum you up: you yell GRIND GRIND GRIND GRIND OR PAYYYYY - how about we replace word "grind" with "play"? Because all this demonic "grind" is you normally playing the game. If you hate it enough to forget you are actually playing a game for fun then maybe you should be doing something else entirely...?

See my post in response to Dulliath.

It's cool how much you love DOTA2. I'll still wait with decision on how good it's model and execution is until after it has actually been fully released. It's easy to praise the game to heavens during the development, but if DOTA2 goes into the direction TF2 went I can see champions randomly unlocked during playing unless you pay for a key. >.>

Nothing to say here in response except "Well maybe they wont do this..." I see. Hint, they won't. Considering Valve stated at the very beginning this was the model they were sticking with having all heroes and gameplay 100% unlocked and free from the beginning, considering Valve's experience with cosmetics, and considering the game is nearly finished with Beta Invites beign given out like fliers at the mall (I still have 2 if you really want to see it for yourself), I think this is what they're going to do.

All it's meant to show it that it's absolutely normal to play LoL without spending anything on it and never feel disadvantaged.

Just because you don't feel disadvantaged doesn't mean you aren't.

I edited my post before I saw you already posted (where I added some 'errata' sentences). I think we actually kind of agree, so I wouldn't call YOU entitled (as you pointed out that you think it's a mistake on Riot's part, but you're not throwing a fit). Would you agree however with me that the people that DO actually throw a fit, are acting 'entitled'?

That would be my definition at least.

I wouldn't call them entitled, since I understand why they're feeling that way and I don't think that their anger is entitled at all. I'd just say they're a bit angrier than they should. I mean cheap shit is always nice, but no need to burn down the house for it.

For fuck sake, I just got back from the Dota 2 megathread reading about two morons arguing, then I come here and people are still fucking arguing. Give it a god damn rest.

And leave the game rivalry for the console fanboys, we don't need that shit on the PC.

They always argue. It's a few new faces to the arguments though, so that's a bit refreshing at least.

Implying that PC is the superior console, in turn merely adding fuel to the fire for a console war.

I kid, but that's what it does sound like. Double standards hooooooooo,