[Priest] PvE Shadow Guide (by Kilee)

[Deleted]

How does this affect shadow priests' view on this trinket?

When running simcraft with a modified proc damage (2.6x which seems to be the damage increase from other threads), it put the normalmode Lightning Capacitor 300dps above DMC:V for me (i'm in half 378 half 359/372 gear for reference)

[Deleted]

Hi Obnoxian, thank you for the question.
[...]
I have updated the trinkets section to reflect the changes to VPLC.

Thanks, I posted this here when I saw it from the front page, assumed it had actually been reported earlier.

When running simcraft with a modified proc damage (2.6x which seems to be the damage increase from other threads), it put the normalmode Lightning Capacitor 300dps above DMC:V for me (i'm in half 378 half 359/372 gear for reference)

Yeah, seeing the same with that, glad for the first time now that we kept getting this "crap" trinket time and time again, even 2 healers got it in our 10-man.

[Quillerjr]

Why is DMCV more powerful than non-heroic Necromantic focus Kilee?

Please Explain, Thank you

[Kilee25]

Hi Quillerjr, thank you for your question.

Why is DMCV more powerful than non-heroic Necromantic focus Kilee?

Please Explain, Thank you

Because the proc is 1600 intellect and it has a 45 second internal cooldown. It is just a very strong trinket, nothing more nothing less. NMF is good, and it is consistent, and that is all well and good, but if you take advantage of DMC: V's proc then you can get more dps out of it.

Mind you, the two trinkets are very close in strength, and you can use NMF if you want to. DPS will probably be very close.

[Quillerjr]

Hi Quillerjr, thank you for your question.



Because the proc is 1600 intellect and it has a 45 second internal cooldown. It is just a very strong trinket, nothing more nothing less. NMF is good, and it is consistent, and that is all well and good, but if you take advantage of DMC: V's proc then you can get more dps out of it.

Mind you, the two trinkets are very close in strength, and you can use NMF if you want to. DPS will probably be very close.

Thanks for your insight Kilee! Yes they are close but DMCV pulls out further so i'll stick with it!

[eErike]

Hi Quillerjr, thank you for your question.



Because the proc is 1600 intellect and it has a 45 second internal cooldown. It is just a very strong trinket, nothing more nothing less. NMF is good, and it is consistent, and that is all well and good, but if you take advantage of DMC: V's proc then you can get more dps out of it.

Mind you, the two trinkets are very close in strength, and you can use NMF if you want to. DPS will probably be very close.

Don't forget that both Power Torrent and DMC:V have the same internal cooldown (45sec) and will usually proc at the same time, stacking up pretty good allowing us to refresh our dots with a rather big int bonus at the given time.

---------- Post added 2011-09-09 at 08:53 PM ----------

And yes
A friend asked me how Shadow Orbs works so I threw together some proc rate numbers. So I figured I might as well throw it out here to

Shadow orbs have a 18% chanse to proc at every SW: P tick and every MF tic (given that you run with a proper spec that is).

This means that we have a 82% chance to NOT proc an Orb each time our MF or SW: P deals damage.
This way we can calculate the probablillity of getting/not getting our Shadow Orbs after X ticks of MF and SW: P.
X indicates one tic from either Mind Flay or Shadow Word: Pain.
Y indicates the probabillity not to get an Orb. In order to get the probabillity to get one, simply sumbstract the value of Y from 1. (eg. 1-0.82=0.18, 18%).

--X------Y--
--1-----0.8200
--2-----0.6724
--3-----0.5514
--4-----0.4521
--5-----0.3707
--6-----0.3040
--7-----0.2493
--8-----0.2044
--9-----0.1676
-10-----0.1374
-11-----0.1127
-12-----0.0924
-13-----0.0758
-14-----0.0621
-15-----0.0510

These are rounded numbers in a (failed?) atempt to make it look abit tidy.

The important thing to read from this is the following:

1. You will never be garantied an Orb no matter how many ticks you throw off (n*0.82 > 1, when n>=1).
2. Probablillity does not stack, this means that the seccond tick does not have a 36% chance of summoning an orb just because the first one did not. This is something may people never think about and this is also what makes every single casino in the world profitable.
3. Don't look to much at numbers, RNG is a bitch, learn to life with her instead of against her!

Hope you like numbers

[Deleted]

@ the above poster and probabilities in this game.

What are the chances there is some kind of built in mechanic to stop silly RNG?
I mean, you could make a new character, and without being hitcapped, never hit a mob, until you get boosted to a level you can buy gear and get hitcapped.

Or you could go through the game and never crit, ever?

There must be something preventing this aside from just being extremely unlikely.

[Deleted]

@ the above poster and probabilities in this game.

What are the chances there is some kind of built in mechanic to stop silly RNG?
I mean, you could make a new character, and without being hitcapped, never hit a mob, until you get boosted to a level you can buy gear and get hitcapped.

Or you could go through the game and never crit, ever?

There must be something preventing this aside from just being extremely unlikely.

One of the silliest post i had the chance to see so far. Actually enjoyed it.

(BTW, tks for the guide)

[eErike]

Or you could go through the game and never crit, ever?

This might (utterly) rarely happend.

Say you have about 15% crit. Then 85% of you attacks should be noncrits aka hits (you are hitcapped atm).
Even if your probabillity to crit atleast once during 20 attacks is somewere around 98% you must still remember that every single attack will never have a higher critchanes than 15%.
Your 21nd attack won't have a 98% crit chanse just because you havn't got any crit in 20 attacks before.

As for blizzard to have some sort of "no crits cap" to make sure that we never get to busted, that would be rather stupid and would defeat the whole point of RNG.

[ant13]

Hi, i ve recently rerolled to shadow priest and I have some questions.
I am using the opening rotation mentioned in varius forums, i.e SW:P, MF, MB, (DA-SF) DP, VT, but I noticed that I rarerly got Empowered shadows activated after the first 2 casts of MF. Should I stick with that opening or it would be more beneficial to open with DoTs and then refresh them as soon as Empowered Shadows got activated?

The second question is how to extend empowered shadows uptime... I ve noticed that even i cast MB on cd, ES fall off for some reason... (i m hit cap 17.02% fyi).
Thanx in advance.

[zsun]

For your first question you should open with dots and then channel MF for orbs, then refresh them after you have empowered shadows. Dots have the highest DPET and should always be cast first in the opening sequence.

For your second question, maximizing empowered shadows uptime may take a bit of practice, and has nothing to do with hit cap. Its not about casting MB flat out on CD either, especially since all MBs cast without shadow orbs does not refresh empowered shadows duration. On the other hand the latest buff to MB combined with the 4pc bonus from T12 shows that MB should be cast on CD whenever possible. This is where a bit of practice i mentioned earlier comes into play. Normally when MB comes off CD you should have 1 orb, so casting MB would refresh the duration of empowered shadows. But if you don't have an orb and MB comes off CD, you have to look at several other factors. The main thing to look at is the current remaining duration of your empowered shadows. Does it have more than 6.5 seconds left? If it does, then you should cast MB because it will come back off CD before the empowered shadows fall off. If empowered shadows have less than 6.5 seconds, its advisable to cast MB and then take the last remaining seconds to refresh your dots, so that they retain the empowered shadows buff even after empowered shadows fall off. Afterwards proceed to fish for more orbs.

[ant13]

Thanks for the quick reply m8... looking frw for some tests

[Deleted]

Very nice guide, good jobb!
However, you might want to explain a bit about which spells Empowered shadow effect, I don´t think all shadow priests knows all our spell counts as dots except for Mind blast.

SWP on adds with high health pools + mind blast to keep empowered shadows up at 100% and then mind sear away on those nasty little aoe adds is far more noticeable then just mind sear alone!

[Kilee25]

Hi ant13, thank you for your questions.

I am using the opening rotation mentioned in varius forums, i.e SW:P, MF, MB, (DA-SF) DP, VT, but I noticed that I rarerly got Empowered shadows activated after the first 2 casts of MF. Should I stick with that opening or it would be more beneficial to open with DoTs and then refresh them as soon as Empowered Shadows got activated?

Using pain -> MF, you should get ES up about 50% of the time within about 5 seconds. It's a gamble, and it's meant to be one. You should cast dots as soon as you cast Mind Blast, regardless of whether or not ES is up. At that point, your trinkets and spellpower procs will have gone off, and you will still get stronger ticking dots than if you had cast them at the start of the fight with no buffs active. I disagree with zsun's response, and that is not what I would recommed as a starting rotation, but you are free to do what you like, as the starting rotation makes very little difference in total dps.

The second question is how to extend empowered shadows uptime... I ve noticed that even i cast MB on cd, ES fall off for some reason... (i m hit cap 17.02% fyi).

As zsun says, hit has very little to do with ES uptime. The only stat that majorly affects it is haste, and even that doesn't do much. ES is going to fall off from time to time. The best measure you can take is that when ES is about to fall off, you can refresh your dots pre-emptively in order to stick them at a higher value. By the time they need refreshing, ES will have come back up. But there is no hard rule concerning this, and it wouldn't always be the best option. Youw ill just have to use your best judgement and get some practice in with the class to learn your way around it. It will become more clear as you get more experience casting. After a while it's not so much of a problem anymore.

---------- Post added 2011-09-12 at 10:57 AM ----------

Hi Vildkatt, thank you fo rthe feedback.

<snip> you might want to explain a bit about which spells Empowered shadow effect, I don´t think all shadow priests knows all our spell counts as dots except for Mind blast.

SWP on adds with high health pools + mind blast to keep empowered shadows up at 100% and then mind sear away on those nasty little aoe adds is far more noticeable then just mind sear alone!

I've mentioned this somewhat in the FAQ under "What should I do with multiple targets?". I'm not sure I want to go into too much detail on the basics of our class. The guide is not meant to be a reference book. Perhaps I could add an FAQ section explaining how mastery works. I'll consider this in a future update.

[Themos]

Shadow orbs have a 18% chanse to proc at every SW: P tick and every MF tic (given that you run with a proper spec that is).

This means that we have a 82% chance to NOT proc an Orb each time our MF or SW: P deals damage.
This way we can calculate the probablillity of getting/not getting our Shadow Orbs after X ticks of MF and SW: P.
X indicates one tic from either Mind Flay or Shadow Word: Pain.
Y indicates the probabillity not to get an Orb. In order to get the probabillity to get one, simply sumbstract the value of Y from 1. (eg. 1-0.82=0.18, 18%).

--X------Y--
--1-----0.8200
--2-----0.6724
--3-----0.5514
--4-----0.4521
--5-----0.3707
--6-----0.3040
--7-----0.2493
--8-----0.2044
--9-----0.1676
-10-----0.1374
-11-----0.1127
-12-----0.0924
-13-----0.0758
-14-----0.0621
-15-----0.0510

Statistically speaking this is incorrect. After 15 seconds, the probability is exactly the same it was 15 seconds ago. ie 82% chance to not get a proc per tick event remains the same no matter what. It's like coin flips. Assuming 50/50 chance, even if you get heads 10 times in a row, the chance the 11th toss is heads is still 50%.

You can calculate the chance of having no tails at all in 10 throws, which would be (1/2)^10, which is ~0.0976% chance. But each individual event's chance never changes. Similarly, you can make statements along the lines of "The chance of having an orb after X seconds is Y" or "The chance of not having an orb after Z seconds is U".

Specifically, the chances of accumulating no orbs within that 15 second window (5 swp and 15 flay ticks) is:

20 chances
0.82 chance/event

0.82^20 = 0.01889 or 1.89%, that's a 98.11% chance of having at least one orb proc.

[eErike]

Statistically speaking this is incorrect. After 15 seconds, the probability is exactly the same it was 15 seconds ago. ie 82% chance to not get a proc per tick event remains the same no matter what. It's like coin flips. Assuming 50/50 chance, even if you get heads 10 times in a row, the chance the 11th toss is heads is still 50%.

You can calculate the chance of having no tails at all in 10 throws, which would be (1/2)^10, which is ~0.0976% chance. But each individual event's chance never changes. Similarly, you can make statements along the lines of "The chance of having an orb after X seconds is Y" or "The chance of not having an orb after Z seconds is U".

Specifically, the chances of accumulating no orbs within that 15 second window (5 swp and 15 flay ticks) is:

20 chances
0.82 chance/event

0.82^20 = 0.01889 or 1.89%, that's a 98.11% chance of having at least one orb proc.

I have never said that the chanses will rise while you do not get your orb, I do even state that the chanse of getting a orb never gets any higher than 18% per tic a few times.
Nice to see that you get it though

[Mogling]

So I have a few questions mostly about the opening rotation.
What I normally do is between 2 and 1 on the tanks countdown i pot and VT so that it lands at zero, then this is my cast order
sw:p
DP
Fiend
MF clip after 2nd tick
MF clip after 2nd tick (proc an orb by now)
MB
VT
DP
MF clip after 2nd tick
MF clip after 3rd tick
AA
MB
I usually end up refreshing VT the GCD after the next MB then I refresh DP usually right after AA falls off
You can see I delay my first mind blast a little, and this is to get 10 stacks up from necromantic focus. I also delay casting AA until MB is off CD so that I can fit 3 MBs into 1 AA. Is there anything wrong with this? Also, If i start casting MB with AA at like .5 sec so that it falls off before I finish casting, do I get the buff to that spells damage?

[Kilee25]

Hi Mogling, thank you for your question.

If I had a dollar for every time I've entered a discussion about the opening rotations, I could've bought myself a new Xbox by now. Heh... The sad truth is that it doesn't much matter what you do...

When I look at your sequence, the only major things I have to say are this:

- You don't always have the luxury of pre-casting VT. On the few fights where you can, I think it's a good idea. On the fights where you can't, be sure to have the wisdom to realize that it is a part of your opening sequence and thus uses up a GCD. Getting into a mode of thinking it is "free" is very often a trap.

- DP ticks at your lowest setting for a total of 6.667 GCDs before you refresh it again, or another words three times. The DPET you get back from 3 ticks of DP is equivalent to casting Mind Flay instead. You're not gaining any dps doing it one way or another, only delaying getting the DA buff up by a GCD. There's some wisdom however in saying the point of this is to get full stacks of NMF going. For DPS alone, it doesn't do anything beneficial.

Aside from keeping the above in mind, just keep doing what you're doing if you feel it is working well. What you've posted is a good way to get full stacks of NMF up and running, which is good.

Edit: Sorry I'll try to address your other questions too.

I also delay casting AA until MB is off CD so that I can fit 3 MBs into 1 AA. Is there anything wrong with this?

The only potential issue is that you'll probably lose a few seconds of your intellect procs which probably went off somewhere around the first or second MF in your sequence. Losing a few seconds of these while waiting for that second MB to come up means most of your AA will be up without them. The difference between using AA early with int procs versus later with 3 MB will probably be about the same in the end.

Also, If i start casting MB with AA at like .5 sec so that it falls off before I finish casting, do I get the buff to that spells damage?

I don't think it will work that way. It only looks at procs at the moment the spell finishes casting.

[Arlee]

I don't think it will work that way. It only looks at procs at the moment the spell finishes casting.

If it works like everything else right now it will only matter what buffs you have when you finish casting. As an example if you start cast MB with no orbs, and during the cast you proc one, ES will refresh.

[nycnyc88]

Forgive if this has already been answered but i was always wondered the following:

Lets say that ES has 4 sec left. At this point VT is recast, no orbs are available. ES buff drops, while VT is continuing its ticks. Did VT damage drop when ES dropped off, or does damage remain what it was at cast time?
Similar question re trinket procs, does it make sence to recast VT just as trinket procs are about to expire?
Thanks a lot!