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  1. #1

    [10N] Beth'tilac wiping on first phase

    My guild is 5/13, and I'm pretty sure we average around 363ish gear or better. We tried Beth'tilac tonight and spent about two hours wiping on her...we're not even making it to the burn phase.

    We have a bear tank, holy pally, and enh shaman going "upstairs" and they more or less seem to have it under control (They're still having some issues falling through the web but I think that may just be a matter of practice?)

    Downstairs we have a warrior tank (me), holy priest and disc priest healing, with a hunter, boomkin, ele shaman, and fury warrior dpsing.

    We taunt down the first four spinners, and they go down easy enough. Once the first drone comes out, I pick it up and bring it close-ish to the raid and face it away, keeping it to the southwest since spiderlings don't seem to come from there. The warrior helps me kill the drone while the ranged kill spinners and spiderlings. The spiderlings seem pretty clean, don't get any stacks of consume unless people have already started dying.

    It feels like damage is just out of control. I'm trying to mitigate the aoe she puts down when no one's up top, but it feels like I'm getting hit pretty hard. We seem to start losing people after the first or second smolder and it's downhill from there.

    World of logs post here:

    I'm afraid I suck at reading these things (officers generally do that)

    Was hoping I could get some insight. It's really frustrating cuz so many people are saying that this girls got a relatively easy learning curve.

  2. #2
    I recommend stacking while the spinners are out since it helps the healers a lot while the extra damage is flying out. Other than that from looking at your logs it looks like the Dps seems to be a little low.

  3. #3
    Make sure you're 3 healing it. "Relatively easy learning curve" is an understatement, considering my guild one shot this boss having never seen it before.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Sioux City, IA
    your dps are mad low. pretty much everyone down below should be pushing 20k and the people up top slightly more also.

  5. #5
    Yeah DPS does indeed seem pretty low, but that's not really of consequence because you seem to be wiping more to damage taken.

    The two most prominent causes look like they are Tank deaths or deaths to AoE damage. Do your best to stack up for AoE heals and use a rotation of AoE cooldowns if needed. Also, when going up top, make sure your tank and healer go at the same time (looks like some wipes are for your upstairs tanking getting gibbed fast with no heals).

  6. #6
    yeah.. dps is too low.. talk to the players.. make them change spec if it gives them more dps.. use food/flasks/potions..

    Also i think your healers oom by trying 2 hard 2 keep everyone up.. you need to .. like someone above me said.. stack up etc.. so that the healers could heal a bit better.. and try not to make 2much mistakes..
    Last edited by diviner; 2011-07-01 at 05:51 AM.
    Greg “Ghostcrawler” Street is the lead systems designer of World of Warcraft. He wipes to the elevator boss.

  7. #7
    Maybe the dps handling the adds are running around too much? We had a specific role for each of the three ranged: a spriest to focus on the drones, hunter on the little spiders and a mage on the spinner things. Of course we helped each other out, especially on the drones, but this seemed to reduce confusion, target switching etc. - no need for everyone to run for the little adds. Make sure the dps are using CD's too and not just saving everything up for last phase :P

  8. #8
    Dreadlord Ashe-Arathor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    I'm the pillow you sleep on at night.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mugurama View Post
    your dps are mad low. pretty much everyone down below should be pushing 20k and the people up top slightly more also.
    Are you insane?
    Okay sure, they are in ilvl 363 ish, but pushing 20k on adds that die insanely fast is pushing it too far. My guild took Beth'tilac in 4 tries, 3 of which we spent figuring the best way to damage Beth enough to not wipe hard in the burn phase. Here's what we do and our setup:

    Blood Death Knight
    Protection Warrior
    Holy Priest
    Restoration Shaman
    Restoration Druid
    Survival Hunter (Me)
    Fury Warrior
    Shadow Priest
    Arcane Mage
    Retribution Paladin

    We have our DK tank go up first, followed by our shaman and then our retribution paladin and our fury warrior. We have our warrior tank taunt and pick up 2-3 spinners while the ranged tank and kill the ones dangling down. When the drone appears, we switch to the drone once all spinners are killed. Once the spiderlings comes out, we have the hunter throw out a frost trap since they already move extremely slow and have our tank kite the drone away from the spiderlings. The drone dies, we finish the first and second smoldering devastation without problems. In the third transmission, we get 2 drones alive and we have our fury warrior stay down and help with the adds while our retridin keeps bashing away at the boss. Overall we get Beth to around 60% when she comes down from her web. It's very important that you finish off any leftover spiderlings (and there will be one last pack spawning 2-3 seconds before she descends) and then burn her down. It's a very healer intensive fight so make sure your healers bring their A-game.

    Tips I can give is, to make the spiderlings easier, have the hunter spec into entrapment if he isn't already and make sure it's part of his AOE offspec. Linky here, glyphs included:

    This is the spec I use, your hunter may have different experience, but I find this to be good for AOE heavy situation without sacrificing too much on single target.
    If your raid is taking damage while all spinners are dead, you're doing something wrong and I can't put my finger on what it is. When the drone comes out, your tank should focus on the drone alone and leave all spinners to the range to finish off.

    Looking over your WoL report, I have to agree, the dps is low. I've seen worse, but you're definitely scraping the bottom. 67k raid dps is extremely low, even for tier 11. That however can't be the reason you're dying with people on top of the web. The only thing you would die from would be damage from the spinners which isn't exactly high either. On the other hand, if it takes your raid 30 seconds to bring down a spinner then you might wanna reconsider your dps choices.

    On a sidenote, the killorder for adds should always be the following:

    Cinderweb Spiderlings (if alive) -> Cinderweb Spinners -> Cinderweb Drone

    Hope that helped and brought you closer to a solution and a possible kill.
    Last edited by Ashe-Arathor; 2011-07-01 at 06:23 AM. Reason: Adding to the cause!
    "I CAN USE MYSELF AS A BLOCK" - Mike B aka Fony, Platforming Master

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by diviner View Post
    yeah.. dps is too low.. talk to the players.. make them change spec if it gives them more dps.. use food/flasks/potions..

    Also i think your healers oom by trying 2 hard 2 keep everyone up.. you need to .. like someone above me said.. stack up etc.. so that the healers could heal a bit better.. and try not to make 2much mistakes..
    Dps is hella low but you are also bringing classes that arent exactly the classes you want to gear up for progression. But ya dps blows.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by CynicalOtaku View Post
    It feels like damage is just out of control. I'm trying to mitigate the aoe she puts down when no one's up top, but it feels like I'm getting hit pretty hard. We seem to start losing people after the first or second smolder and it's downhill from there.
    So my question is, do you stack up for said AoE like you should and how long does it last? The fight becomes a lot easier when your "up" people get good enough to go up there ASAP and therefore minimize the big AoE she does. Tank goes up first, used big CD, then healer goes up and then DPS.

    I don't know what else to say. We had 2 DPS up top and the bottom side was still a joke to DPS and heal through so long as we stacked properly and our tank didn't fail at getting back up top right away again. We also had our tanks rotate which phase they went up top for to make sure we had CDs up for it every time.

    PS: We're 365ish iLevel equipped and 2 shot this boss (1st attempt we had a DC).

  11. #11
    This might be a stupid question but are you getting someone up there ASAP when the web comes down?

  12. #12
    Your Elemental Shaman really needs to step up his/her game.
    Only 31 Lightning Bolts cast during the 4:41 minute attempt? That's insanely little. Same deal with Lava Burst, only 6 casts total.
    I understand that the little adds die pretty fast, so you'll only use Earthquake, Chain Lightning and Fire Nova on them, but the bigger adds should definitely be living longer enough to get a proper rotation going with the kind of DPS your raid has total.
    If I look at the logs, it seems like he's simply standing around doing nothing for most of the fight.

  13. #13
    High Overlord
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    U r being overwhelmed from die adds, you'll need to split the dps up, melee (fury warrior in this case) for the drone, 3 range kill the little healing spiders and die adds hanging in the air. Also, the cone attack of the drone is something you definitely want to avoid, as well as the devastation. Well as for dps... the both shamans are doing literally nothing imo, you'll need their dps in p2 anyway, so... Do more dps or you just farm trash until you outgear the easymodes, because you'll almost certainly wipe in p2 with this kind of raid-dps.
    Last edited by Elemen; 2011-07-01 at 09:21 AM.

  14. #14
    We had some low dps problems like this last night.

    Try putting your elemental shaman on single-target, ele AoE takes a while to ramp up and your boomkin / hunter should be able to kill the little adds by themselves.

    In general, make sure DPS have well defined target assignments. A general kill priority for the whole raid will lower your DPS... get two DPS (rogue / hunter / boomkin / mage) on spiderlings, strong single target DPS on spinners > drones, and other melee on drones > ground spinners.
    Ilam - <Gardian> | Wiping with Benefits - Frostmourne US - armory

  15. #15
    We went there in 10 man on our alts, with some casual members. We had a bad setup ands till made it into the burn phase. Obviously because of the low dps we couldn't kill it, but we were happy to get that far at least.
    Our setup was a Warrior Tank, undergeared DK tank, 2 Holy Pally, 1 Resto Druid, 2 DK dps, 1 Enh Shaman, 1 Shadowpriest, 1 Mage.
    As I said a pretty bad setup.
    What worked for us : Since we were 3 Melee we weren't gonna be able to send em all up and assigned our best DK dps to handle the small spiderlings. Each time they spawned he went all out on them while the tank kited the Drone away. Casters only helped when the DK had trouble killing them in time. They managed to kill each Drone before the next one spawned. The first time we went up we sent in the Shaman and the other DK dps but the 2nd and 3rd time the Dk dps stayed down to make sure everything goes down fast enough. Each time we went into p2, the boss was at 80%, but she also managed to consume 1 spider going up to 90%...
    It's very important to get up asap. Communicate well so that the healer and tank can go up fast.

    Can anyone state what they think is a good % to have the boss on when p2 starts ? When did you pop hero ?

    Have everyone use their taunts, even dps.
    Last edited by Omirr; 2011-07-01 at 09:41 AM.

  16. #16
    80% is pretty good. On our kill, our group on top screwed a bit and she was only at 92% at the transition. However, with good dps and healing this is no problem.

  17. #17
    I think by the end of the night the upstairs group had more or less figured out their game. We kept changing healer assignments so I think that slowed down the learning curve. If they work on their game I'm confident that the three of them can get beth'tilac to about 80 percent before burn phase (they were averaging about 95-92 percent before the first smolder).

    While the healers are preaching "stack up" downstairs it feels like players are still kind of spreading out. Unfortunately, it seems the closer I bring the drone in (always facing him towards the outside) the more the dps/healers like to range in front of it. One healer in particular seemed to like dying to the spatter.

    Also, while vigilance gives me infinite taunts when everyone is on the ground, unless I tank the drone dead center, I'm out of range to taunt 3/4s of the spinners that drop, and with the kill priority and dps, the drones are dropping just before they'd run off and go upstairs, meaning that I'm often tanking two drones around that time. Plus the closer I bring the drone to center, the more I end up kiting the drone...which brings me back away from center and if I try to return I'm risking putting splatters on the raid.

    I'm finding this whole thing overwhelming, feeling stupid for feeling so overwhelmed, and not really sure what I can do personally to improve my performance :/

  18. #18
    The fight is made a lot easier with good dps on the ground.

    We were making phase 2 easily with just one tank and healer going up, the rest staying down (10m). 2 rogues on drone and ground-spinners, tank holding aggro on drone and ground-spinners + taunting hanging ones, two hunters + frost dk on spiderlings + rest when spiderlings down.

    Due to DCs our best attempt only got to 50% or so, but we would've made it had we not lost so much damage done to disconnected players... think Beth had ~85%ish health by p2.
    Ilam - <Gardian> | Wiping with Benefits - Frostmourne US - armory

  19. #19
    Just try to get a hunter in your setup, he has to shoot down the big spider comming from up. These spider are making the most dmg while phase 1. He must use spot-shot and the spider will come instantly down. Thats all, then you can kill the boss with ever lowbob dps as long your healer are good in p2.

  20. #20
    We got her down tonight, using the same strategy with a slightly different raid comp. Had tree and disc priest healing downstairs, with the hpala upstairs. I think we just managed to improve execution. The ele shaman did much better sitting upstairs on beth'tilac and the warrior tore the drones up this time.

    Ty all for the advice and comments!

    EDIT: Three shot. Would have one shot but she ate a bunch of spiderlings when she came down to burn phase.

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