Dragonwrath, Tarecgosa's Rest Quest Chain

[Deleted]

It would be very unwise for a 25-man raid to spread out their Eternal Embers out because the quicker someone moves onto Seething Embers the better, that way you're collecting the parts for both phases at once (for different people obviously). In this way, the sceme does indeed slightly favor 25-man guilds.

I suspect that given that the Seething Cinders changed from 25 to 1000 so late on that they simply wanted to ensure that bosses always drop a predetermined integer number of them for both raid sizes and difficulties, say 8 on normal-10, 16 on heroic-10, 20 on normal-25 and 40 on heroic-25, that way it's 25 heroic 25-man bosses again and the other sizes gather them less. As someone pointed out earlier, it's psychologically better to always gain something than to require 25 of them and have the heroic-25 drop rate be 100% and the normal-10 drop rate be 20% even if on average this works out the same. 1000 is also a "cooler" number than 250, even though functionally you could just divide all the above numbers by 4.

It'd take a strict 10-man normal guild four and a half months of clearing at this rate, which doesn't seem out of the realm of possibility (and they'd surely do some heroics anyway).

[Hashishin]

No, my point is there should be a system in place where both guilds obtain the legendary at the same speed, however 25man's gain 3 of them at the same rate a 10man gains one.

I mean it should take on average 2months to get the staff (for example) for a 10man, and 2months for a 25man. But at that 2month mark a 25man guild could have 3.

By using a system where players can only obtain one Eternal Ember, per boss, per raid lockout. The 25s do not get it any quicker, neither do 10s (On average) but the 25s still get 3 at the rate 10s get 1.

That's fair. It doesn't differentiate between the two in terms of time it takes to obtain the item.

Why should a player in a 25man raid environment obtain the item 2.5x faster than someone in a 10man raid environment if the raid sizing is supposed to be about preference?

As other's have posted, the system is fair, if all the eternal embers that drop in 25mans are spread out to players, but they're not, they're all given to one player.

I understand your idea but don't like the idea of 3 people getting it at the same time for 25m guilds. That doesn't feel like a legendary to me if it's handed out in bunches.

---------- Post added 2011-07-01 at 12:07 PM ----------

There would be upset players either way and I think Blizz picked the correct option.

[Parkbench]

As long as the drop rate for the required quest items is higher in heroic mode then I don't see a problem. You shouldn't even be able to get a legendary without killing heroic bosses imo, but I don't make the game.

[Myrlae]

The legendary quest chain is stupid and hugely favours 25man currently. The drop rate for an Eternal Ember on 25man is 100-300% per boss, meaning they will recieve 1-3 Eternal Embers per boss, 21 maximum in one week. A 25man guild can have the Eternal Ember part of the quest done in 9 bosses.

10man guilds have a less than 100% drop chance for Eternal Embers, we cleared everything on the first day and I only got 6 Eternal Embers.

It's going to take me 3 more weeks minimum to get the first part of the quest done (But based on the rate I got them this week, it'll be another 4 weeks).

A 25men guild also has 15 members more so about 2 more ranged to grab a legendary

[Valanna]

Read blue posts before spreading misinformation will ya?

Quote:
Eternal Embers and Seething Cinders Droprates
You’re assuming the drop chances for embers averages out to .5 per boss in 10’s and 2 per boss in 25’s, which it doesn’t. Whether you’re in 10’s or 25’s you’re going to see an equal drop average for Eternal Embers per player, and the same can be said for Seething Cinders.

Go to the blue tracker instead of the front page, you will see the continuation of the blue post you just quoted:
"
From Ask the Devs #4:

A: Our main goal is to offer the Legendary in both 10 and 25 without requiring say a 25-player raid to feel like they have to switch to running 10s for the sole purpose of Legendary fragment acquisition (and the same is true for 10s). Our plan is to make Legendary completion take longer to acquire in 10-player raids. The exact ratio will be somewhat obfuscated because of the variation in the amount of fragments dropped per boss based on both raid size and raid difficulty. However, you can plan on it being maybe 2 to 2.5 times faster for the 25-player raid. It should feel analogous to number of Valor points or gold dropped in 25s, and is being treated the same.

[slosh]

No, my point is there should be a system in place where both guilds obtain the legendary at the same speed, however 25man's gain 3 of them at the same rate a 10man gains one.

I mean it should take on average 2months to get the staff (for example) for a 10man, and 2months for a 25man. But at that 2month mark a 25man guild could have 3.

By using a system where players can only obtain one Eternal Ember, per boss, per raid lockout. The 25s do not get it any quicker, neither do 10s (On average) but the 25s still get 3 at the rate 10s get 1.

That's fair. It doesn't differentiate between the two in terms of time it takes to obtain the item.

Why should a player in a 25man raid environment obtain the item 2.5x faster than someone in a 10man raid environment if the raid sizing is supposed to be about preference?

As other's have posted, the system is fair, if all the eternal embers that drop in 25mans are spread out to players, but they're not, they're all given to one player.

What's fair isn't necessarily fun. Also, I doubt there is any system/technology in place to allow such a thing.

How would you determine whether the guild is a 25-man or a 10-man when you go to create the staff? I could easily make sure that 25 people in-guild had killed all the bosses, yet in reality only be a 10-man. I could pay people gold to join my guild for a night, craft 3 staffs, and then boot them. Now I have a 10-man with 30% of the team with legendaries, while a 25-man has a mere 12%.

It'd be too difficult to program, too difficult to eliminate exploits, and all to keep 10-man guilds crying because it took 2.5 times longer to get a legendary. For every, "but what if" you can think of, somehow an exploit will be found.

Sorry, but this is as "fair" as you're going to get, and I think most people will agree it is perfectly reasonable for 25s to earn their legendaries quicker if it means both groups earn it at the same overall rate.

[Firehorse]

The legendary quest chain is stupid and hugely favours 25man currently. The drop rate for an Eternal Ember on 25man is 100-300% per boss, meaning they will recieve 1-3 Eternal Embers per boss, 21 maximum in one week. A 25man guild can have the Eternal Ember part of the quest done in 9 bosses.

10man guilds have a less than 100% drop chance for Eternal Embers, we cleared everything on the first day and I only got 6 Eternal Embers.

It's going to take me 3 more weeks minimum to get the first part of the quest done (But based on the rate I got them this week, it'll be another 4 weeks).

10 man raids have 5 casters at most(assuming every dps slot is a magic caster), do you see? 25 man raids have 10+ casters(assuming alittle over half the dps are casters, so really could be has high as 15 if they wanted to), do you see now?

It will take 3 more weeks to finish the quest, but im afraid much more time than that to grow a brain

---------- Post added 2011-07-01 at 01:09 PM ----------

Here's an idea then.

100% drop chance for 10man.
300% drop chance for 25man.

Except 25mans can only give 1 Ember to 1 person boss. That way 25mans can get 3 Legendary Staffs for their guild, but at the same rate a 10man will get their Legendary Staff. That way a 25man raider can't complete the quest in two weeks.

If the guild wants to dump all of its efforts into making a staff for someone then why should blizzard slow them down? Your forgetting that 10 man and 25 man are not the same thing.(i for one love 10 man raids and refuse to do 25 mans now).

25 mans shouldn't get better gear, but they should get better drop rates because 150% more people are saving them self to a lock out. Anyone who says they are the same thing is fucking stupid and has never had to recruit 25 active, reliable raid members. Its easy to get a 10 man guild going, its not easy to get a 25 man guild going, and ontop of that keep it going. So i think they should get extra rewards for the extra effort put into the guild. Your entire arguement has been that its the same content, but you refuse to look at the fact that there are 15 other people there.

More importantly your only bitching because you can’t/won’t join a 25 man raiding guild out of fear or not getting picked for the staff. I’m assuming you’re the guilds casters that’s getting the weapon so be happy you have 10 guys helping ya out and stop complaining about the grass on the other side of the fence. I mean they would have been real dicks like they have been for the last well, since the game launched and make legendarys mats out of 25 man only bosses(like my healing mace was)

[Wilderness]

Drop rate on 25 man being 2.5 times higher than 10 man is only justified if they are being spread around people. If they are all going to 1 person to get the 1st staff faster (which is what everyone will be doing) then 25 mans will have the 1st staff 2.5 times faster than 10 man..... therefore it favors 25 man.

Yes, but it has to be that way. If you have it the other way, where the 1st person who gets a staff is the same length for both sizes then 25 mans get screwed in the number of legendaries or 10 mans get way too many. It has to be unbalanced in some way, and the fact that 25 mans can get the first one faster is the lesser of two evils.

[Ruthenia]

As said before it's a question of ratios. In a 10man raid you generally have 5-6 DPS and in a 25man you have 15-18 DPS. In a 10man your dps is 17-20% of the raid and in a 25man your DPS is 6-7% of the DPS. So the Legendary's raid DPS component will be three times larger in 10 man than in 25man. If they wanted to make the raid power equal in 10 and 25 they would have made it take three times longer to obtain in 10man. Be grateful that it's not "fair", because it's skewed in 10man's favor.

[LichslayerX]

Ever since Vanilla WoW, 10 mans have been the most favored and enjoyed instance size. I remember getting Lightforge on my Paladin in 10 mans and I worked significantly harder for it than the Paladins that afked in Molten Core for Lawbringer. Imho, they need to get rid of 25 mans as they did 40 mans and focus on 10 mans entirely. So they lose some hardcore players? They're scared that they'll scream "I quit" on the forums?

Please. Dont kid yourself. They wont quit.

They'll sniffle perhaps, quiver in rage that they cant prevent the change, and then they'll very meekly and quietly break down into 10 man size and endure it, much as they did at 40 man. I wager in honesty that they'll also find out shortly, though they would never admit it that they are having more fun. There will also be a higher prestige when ten people take world firsts and are heralded as the top ten of the world. Granted my cash says Paragon will still default world firsts for the reasons I've given other threads, but thats neither here nor there.

Its been long overdue for 7 years, and my opinion remains 10 Mans are the best size for dungeons. Whether City of Heroes, Everquest, Knights of the Old Repub or otherwise, 25 man is just overkill that rewards subpar playing. You can disagree with me if you like, but try to be civil about it. Also remember that disagreement with a opinion does not automatically make what I write trolling. I see that sentiment far too often on the Warcraft Forums, so I write addendum to this; to nip that skewed logic in the bud.



Edit: And for the record, this staff holds no interest to me. True I play a Dps Shadow Priest, but I got screwed out of Shadowmourne by my Guild Leader back in the day, who broke the guild to satisfy his ego. He never got the axe either, and though I completed mine in Cata; its taught me a valuable lesson. Orange Weapons are just trouble. Just like the Orange Mobs in Intellivision's Tron Deadly Disks Game were.