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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deleo View Post
    2- I believe these people are comparing themselves to other tanks and not how much they were doing pre-patch.
    I was comparing how I was post patch then after 4.2.

    My damage in-take improved a bit + the new few pieces ive picked up added to this.

    My DPS before patch was around 13-15k in dungeons and I'm still hovering around there, maybe higher depending on group and how well im playing that particular day.

    I havent really raided enough post 4.2 to see how it is. I know in trash runs I was pulling 18-20kDPS.
    Last edited by rated; 2011-07-05 at 12:30 AM.

  2. #22
    Pandaren Monk Deleo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rated View Post
    I was comparing how I was post patch then after 4.2.

    My damage in-take improved a bit + the new few pieces ive picked up added to this.

    My DPS before patch was around 13-15k in dungeons and I'm still hovering around there, maybe higher depending on group and how well im playing that particular day.

    I havent really raided enough post 4.2 to see how it is. I know in trash runs I was pulling 18-20kDPS.
    I'm doing same amount of AoE damage but I've upgraded few pieces. I think overall AoE has taken a nerf.
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  3. #23
    Stood in the Fire razisgosu's Avatar
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    While damage taken is less, which is great, I am noticing a lot less damage going out from myself. The scaling nerfs really hurt and I am now being out DPS'ed and TPS'ed by a prot warrior.

    As a whole I am very disappointed with bears this expansion. We're nearly the bottom of the barrel from a tanking perspective, with only DK's being worse. Block tanks are just so much superior from a raiding perspective.

    Here are my experiences and reasons I make the statements above:

    1. Bears mastery is a chance, of a chance. What I mean is it is a 50% chance to proc on a 45% crit chance, not to mention take into account dodges, misses, parries, and glancing blows which cannot crit, this produces a low uptime on savage defense. This makes bears take inconsistent spike damage compared to Block tanks who have capped their avoidance to the 102.4% threshold - a feat bears will NEVER be able to obtain, and never have been able to.

    2. Taunt swapping. Any fight a bear goes from being OT to MT automatically places them at a disadvantage because they have 0 vengeance. No vengeance means no bonus attack power to make savage defense procs worth it. When I taunt with 0 extra attack power, I'll get maybe a 10k absorb, where a block tank would get anywhere from a 31% - 62% damage reduction.

    3. Gear sharing. Call this a QQ purple fever point if you will, but in my guilds experience it stands as a feral tank issue. Plate tanks only compete with themselves, except on tier. Most guilds only need 2-3 tanks so if you have a prot warrior and feral tank, the prot warrior gears up vastly faster than the feral tank which puts this behind in their ability to survive. I base this on the fact we use agility based leather and agility based rings, necks and trinkets. As an example we share gear with: rogues, feral dps, hunters, enhancement shaman. Most guilds do not favor gear to tanks, and in my experience I have 8 people competing for the gear I require to do my role.

    4. Lack of ability to use certain cooldowns. Feral tanks can very rarely use battle rez, innervate, or tranquility due to not being able to use these while tanking. This is a fairly large design flaw. No other tank is restricted on which cooldowns they can use because they have to be in form or they get one shot.

    There's probably more, but this is all I can think of at the moment. It really shows that feral tanks are in a poor position as a tanking class when compared with warrior or paladin.

  4. #24
    dks are worse? i disagree lol. dks r insane when played right, massive blood shields. i was making the healers look bad on baleroc. bears r a lot more fun after the patch, aoe threat still sucks balls.

  5. #25
    I am a healer but here is my take on it. We've just recently recruited a Feral tank and he is far less geared than the rest of our raid. However, I've noticed that he takes significantly less damage than our much better geared Paladin tank. Just to compare apples to apples, when we are killing Ragnaros (Both tanks just rotate on the same boss), the druid is able to hold Rag much longer than the paladin due to stacks building up slower from dodging. It is also significantly easier to heal him than the paladin. The paladin seems to take much bigger spikes, and much more frequently. The druid has significantly less health than the paladin but is far easier to heal.

    Since I am completely ignorant to tanking mechanics for the most part, I don't know how much of this is a result of class vs skill.

  6. #26
    Stood in the Fire razisgosu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hellboyy View Post
    dks are worse? i disagree lol. dks r insane when played right, massive blood shields. i was making the healers look bad on baleroc. bears r a lot more fun after the patch, aoe threat still sucks balls.
    True, massive blood shields are great. The problem is that DK's take more damage than any other tank, resulting in taking chunks and spikes in damage, which is NOT a good tanking class. The best tanking class is the one who has consistent steady damage rather than spikey unpredictable damage.

    ---------- Post added 2011-07-05 at 03:50 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by krebul View Post
    I am a healer but here is my take on it. We've just recently recruited a Feral tank and he is far less geared than the rest of our raid. However, I've noticed that he takes significantly less damage than our much better geared Paladin tank. Just to compare apples to apples, when we are killing Ragnaros (Both tanks just rotate on the same boss), the druid is able to hold Rag much longer than the paladin due to stacks building up slower from dodging. It is also significantly easier to heal him than the paladin. The paladin seems to take much bigger spikes, and much more frequently. The druid has significantly less health than the paladin but is far easier to heal.

    Since I am completely ignorant to tanking mechanics for the most part, I don't know how much of this is a result of class vs skill.
    What you may have been seeing here is paladin who was not properly gearing himself, that's what it sounds like to me. Rag also has a lot of fire damage going out, druids currently have the best magic resistance of the 4 tanking classes so this may also have had something to contribute to the difference.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by razisgosu View Post
    True, massive blood shields are great. The problem is that DK's take more damage than any other tank, resulting in taking chunks and spikes in damage, which is NOT a good tanking class. The best tanking class is the one who has consistent steady damage rather than spikey unpredictable damage.
    That's not entirely correct. In days gone by where everyone had effectively infinite mana, yes, consistent damage was king.

    With blizzard's design goal of making mana meaningful for healers again, now it's the tank which is the most mana efficient to heal, and DK's can perform very well there on some fights. That said, it's probably only in the top 5% of guilds that can take meaningful advantage of that, and as I don't play in one of those anymore, am likely kicking the DK to the curb in favor of my Bear.

    There is no question DK's are harder to heal overall as a result of increased unpredictability in damage spikes with the level of players I'm currently raiding with.

    As for the gearing someone posted, it depends on your raid comp. My current 10m I'll gear faster as a bear than I would as a plate tank since we don't have a rogue, and I'm competing with a prot pally otherwise (and two plate tanking offspecs). Many of the "shared" items (hunters / enh shammies, etc) are obtainable via vp / faction rewards. Most players don't need absolute BiS to be effective, it's just not that big of a deal for many guilds.

  8. #28
    Bear-wise, I think I'm doing fine. There are other mechanics at play though...

    Targeting. I am getting really weird stuff happening. Auto-targeting dead corpses. This sucks if I don't realize it. I can actually blow rage on a corpse. When I tab target, it chooses bizarre targets. I can have a pack of mobs on me and when I tab target it goes to a mob outside my range, maybe in the next pack down the line or some random mob not even in the fight.

    Range. Hit boxes are acting very strange for me. It's like my range on things has gotten smaller or mobs reach has gotten longer. Lately it seems I have to be ON TOP of a mob to be hitting it. If it comes to me it seems to stop right outside my range and able to hit me while i have to step forward to hit it.

    Aggro in general seems weird. Know how the baby scorps in FL are? You have aggro and they go off into the crowd anyway? I assume that is by design to spread the explosions. But this seems to happen on lots of mobs. I run Threat Plates. I KNOW I have aggro. Mobs wander off and come back in a variety of places (5-mans, I mean)

  9. #29
    Hrm, I'd noticed a few of the oddities you mentioned with regards to melee range; however, I just assumed I was badly positioned.

    AFAIK the scorps wandering is by design, happens to more than just bears .

    The tab-targeting into the distance has always happened, just be ready to hit ESC and TAB again to start a new cycle over.

    I have wound up on a dead corpse a few times too, more often than I recall ever happening before. I don't know what's going on with that, though I doubt it's bear specific.

  10. #30
    Pandaren Monk Deleo's Avatar
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    1- Mastery: I believe it has pretty high uptime. In WotLK it used to have over 85%+ uptime don't have the numbers in Cata. I'll look around see what I can find. The real issue with mastery is that it scales with gear instead of the encounter. War/Pally mastery mitigates a percentage of the incoming damage which means the harder they get hit the more they'll mitigate. It makes SD better for small hitting mobs and worse for hard hitting mobs who happen to be bosses. Vengeance fixed it to some degree but it still exists. Keep in mind though, we have more armor than other tank.

    2- Taunt swapping won;t affect the damage received that much. Although I agree with you but it is not a huge deal.

    3- Gear sharing. Look at it this way. There are 3 plate tanks. So any plate tank is probably sharing gear with another tank. We are only sharing gear with rogues, ferals and ofc for none leather pieces with hunters and enhancements. Good news is that rogue numbers has dropped significantly and I hardy see a feral DPS in raids. But I hate that hunters get to roll on my Fire Cat form staff.

    4- I've been seeing some weird auto targeting as well, namely targeting dead mobs, mobs far far away when I have few right in front of me, ... . There is something wrong here.


    Edit: Rawr shows 60% chance to have savage defense up on any incoming hit with 17K damage mitigated on each hit. I also have 38% chance to dodge. TBH it is much closer to block mechanics than I thought.
    Last edited by Deleo; 2011-07-06 at 07:57 AM.
    I've walked the realms of the dead. I have seen the infinite dark. Nothing you say. Or do. Could possibly frighten me.
    We are not monsters! We are not the mindless wretches of a ghoul army! NO! We are a force even more terrifying! We are the chill in a coward's spine! We are the instruments of an unyielding ire! WE ARE THE FORSAKEN!
    Those who do not stand with the Forsaken stand against them. And those who stand against the Forsaken will not stand long.

  11. #31
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    Would any of you bears who are putting out 16k dps on FL bosses mind sharing your priority/rotation? I was frustrated with my dps after re-itemizing to add more stamina and used RAWR to calculate the highest dps rotation based on my current gear, and I'm still barely getting 8k or 9k most fights. So frustrating!!!!!!

  12. #32
    Stood in the Fire razisgosu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deleo View Post
    1- Mastery: I believe it has pretty high uptime. In WotLK it used to have over 85%+ uptime don't have the numbers in Cata. I'll look around see what I can find. The real issue with mastery is that it scales with gear instead of the encounter. War/Pally mastery mitigates a percentage of the incoming damage which means the harder they get hit the more they'll mitigate. It makes SD better for small hitting mobs and worse for hard hitting mobs who happen to be bosses. Vengeance fixed it to some degree but it still exists. Keep in mind though, we have more armor than other tank.

    2- Taunt swapping won;t affect the damage received that much. Although I agree with you but it is not a huge deal.

    3- Gear sharing. Look at it this way. There are 3 plate tanks. So any plate tank is probably sharing gear with another tank. We are only sharing gear with rogues, ferals and ofc for none leather pieces with hunters and enhancements. Good news is that rogue numbers has dropped significantly and I hardy see a feral DPS in raids. But I hate that hunters get to roll on my Fire Cat form staff.

    4- I've been seeing some weird auto targeting as well, namely targeting dead mobs, mobs far far away when I have few right in front of me, ... . There is something wrong here.


    Edit: Rawr shows 60% chance to have savage defense up on any incoming hit with 17K damage mitigated on each hit. I also have 38% chance to dodge. TBH it is much closer to block mechanics than I thought.
    60% uptime is almost 1/2 ... that's not really good odds.

    Taunt swapping does hurt, my 16,000 attack power with no vengeance means I get garbage for absorbs until my vengeance stacks.

    If a feral and a prot warrior are the only tanks, there is no competition for the plate tank, true if there were two plate tanks this does not apply.

    A 17k absorb vs a 25-30k block from a prot tank is a pretty big difference across an entire fight.

    No matter how you decide to slice it, feral tanks have inferior mechanics to prot tanks.

  13. #33
    Pandaren Monk Deleo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by razisgosu View Post
    60% uptime is almost 1/2 ... that's not really good odds.

    Taunt swapping does hurt, my 16,000 attack power with no vengeance means I get garbage for absorbs until my vengeance stacks.

    If a feral and a prot warrior are the only tanks, there is no competition for the plate tank, true if there were two plate tanks this does not apply.

    A 17k absorb vs a 25-30k block from a prot tank is a pretty big difference across an entire fight.

    No matter how you decide to slice it, feral tanks have inferior mechanics to prot tanks.
    Prot warrior: dodge+mastery=30% (depending on how they gear up) ---- 50-55% block chance.

    That is pretty close to what you see on druid. 60% chance to see your block equivalent (AKA SD) and 35% dodge.

    30K damage reduction means the incoming hit was 100K. I doubt any boss hits that hard atm (Haven't seen any heroics though). It is closer to 70K I believe which means the blocked portion is 21K.

    As you see numbers are closer than we had thought. As I said bear mastery doesn't scale well with incoming damage, but we have overall better avoidance and higher armor to compensate. Also we tend to favor dodge over mastery while pally/war find mastery to be better than dodge/parry, so it makes sense they get more out of their mastery than us.

    In my experience as a priest healer, I found druid is easier to heal than warrior and DK on trash and heroics (Although I've seen good DKs who don't fit in this scenario). On boss fights, I haven't had enough tries as a healer to compare since I'm usually tanking and the patch has just been released.

    Some logs for you (The fights are close in duration, 6:30 seconds. Log is from Beth'tilac. All 3 tanks are MT):

    Druid: http://www.wowmeteronline.com/combat...88#damagetaken
    Pally: http://www.wowmeteronline.com/combat...21#damagetaken
    Warrior: http://www.wowmeteronline.com/combat...10#damagetaken

    On the logs I've seen so far, druid seems to be taking less damage.

    Regarding Vengeance, I and few other tanks had a long discussion over it few weeks ago. The conclusion was, while its not that big of deal (Mastery is less than 20% of our mitigation and apparently having it cut in half for few seconds on certain fights didn't seem that much of a problem to the tanks I spoke to), it can be easily fixed by giving all tanks a Vigilance-equivalent ability.
    Last edited by Deleo; 2011-07-07 at 06:09 AM.
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    We are not monsters! We are not the mindless wretches of a ghoul army! NO! We are a force even more terrifying! We are the chill in a coward's spine! We are the instruments of an unyielding ire! WE ARE THE FORSAKEN!
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  14. #34
    Stood in the Fire razisgosu's Avatar
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    the paladin in that meter was hit by the instant death aoe. You should subtract 400k from his damage taken. Which would place him below the druid in damage taken I believe. Most paladins and warriors I know are capped on avoidance so all hits will be a block, dodge, parry or miss. They always have some sort of reduction whereas a druid does not.

  15. #35
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    I should probably RTFM more (me pretty much failing and stacking agi/stam with crit/mastery and ignoring the rest except dodge) but I'm starting to like the 4.2 bear. I myself can't tell if I am taking more or less damage, but changing few gems around to get more healthpool has caused me receiving praise from our healers.

  16. #36
    I've run into a double-edged sword for a bear: avoidance/mitigation and Vengeance. The more you avoid and mitigate, the less Vengeance you'll have at any given time. The only fight I've had consistent full Vengeance is Baleroc because... well, c'mon, the hits get so huge it's hard not to max out Vengeance. The irony, though, is that I have a warrior tank eat the decimation blade, so by the time I taunt back all my Vengeance is gone. Beyond Baleroc, I'd be lucky to have 60% of my max Vengeance at any given time. I'm sad that I can't kill my little bird add on Alysrazor faster than my prot warrior counterpart because my Vengeance caps out at 40% while his Vengeance is almost nearly capped at all times... granted not taking damage should be a good thing, but when Blizz makes tank DPS part of a fight, I find that being dependent on Vengeance a hindrance.

    In terms of AoE threat, I've almost stopped trying and let my OT do most of the work. Either Thrash is still not working so well, or the theoretical Vengeance-capped threat is damn near unattainable for me. I suppose I can start spam-sitting to get crit on purpose, though I don't think the healers would like that. Even after checking my logs thus far, when doing the same job as my OT, I'm taking noticeably less damage, though I feel as if I'm being penalized for it.
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  17. #37
    Thus far, the only conclusion to taking less damage is to start putting on more stam and threat stats.The only thing that is peculiar is the way our tps+veng tie in. We have less range from veng due to less hp and higher base ap. So, our abilities dont scale well enough or they are just too low at base. I'm inclined to say base dmg is too low on the fact that a no veng tank can rip off of even a 25% veng, without vigilance.On the other hand, I've ripped from a single target with no veng, so we need a rescaling in general somewhere.

  18. #38
    I feel like I should point out a couple of things.

    1) Full CTC coverage by Paladins only happens in specifically gemmed 372+ gear. Warriors can't even do it yet.
    2) All Plate tanks have less passive DR, and less Armor than Bears (by a pretty huge margin actually).

    So yes, that 25k Block is big compared to a 17k Absorb. However that same tank is taking 58k damage, while we're only taking 49k.

    25 * 10 / 3 - 25 - 58k.

    25 * 10 / 3 / .9 / .9 / .4 (ballpark) = 257k.

    257 * .9 * .82 * .35 (ballpark) = 66k

    66 - 17 = 49.

    I may have messed up the plate stance modifiers, but the outcome is the same.

  19. #39
    Stood in the Fire uzumati's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by exochaft View Post
    I've run into a double-edged sword for a bear: avoidance/mitigation and Vengeance. The more you avoid and mitigate, the less Vengeance you'll have at any given time. The only fight I've had consistent full Vengeance is Baleroc because... well, c'mon, the hits get so huge it's hard not to max out Vengeance. The irony, though, is that I have a warrior tank eat the decimation blade, so by the time I taunt back all my Vengeance is gone. Beyond Baleroc, I'd be lucky to have 60% of my max Vengeance at any given time. I'm sad that I can't kill my little bird add on Alysrazor faster than my prot warrior counterpart because my Vengeance caps out at 40% while his Vengeance is almost nearly capped at all times... granted not taking damage should be a good thing, but when Blizz makes tank DPS part of a fight, I find that being dependent on Vengeance a hindrance.

    In terms of AoE threat, I've almost stopped trying and let my OT do most of the work. Either Thrash is still not working so well, or the theoretical Vengeance-capped threat is damn near unattainable for me. I suppose I can start spam-sitting to get crit on purpose, though I don't think the healers would like that. Even after checking my logs thus far, when doing the same job as my OT, I'm taking noticeably less damage, though I feel as if I'm being penalized for it.
    I agree with the double edged sword there i find vengeance falling off when i proc Vial. If you want to have fun on Alysrazor and make the other tank jealous hit and exp cap for that one fight. Vengeance will stay up and you damage will be insane. I've only managed 140K so far in my old setup (4.5% hit / 18 exp) anxious to see what difference capping makes tonight.
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