I know this is a ninja QQ thread, but Blizz is ridiculous

[Deleted]

Pugs I lead, rules are stated upfront as:
"MS > OS"
"MS is what you're playing here unless you tell me otherwise now."
(and use dps meter at end of fight to determine their role - it's not uncommon that someone switches spec after peeking at the loot - I just ridicule them first, then assign to the one that's supposed to get it)
"1 Need win / Boss unless no other needs."
"BoE MS + Bind > FFA roll." (can't really enforce the bind part but I ask them to bind and get inspected, or blacklist them for subsequent runs)

[anothdae]

Main spec before offspec, your main spec is considered to be what role are here as, unless you say otherwise now and we agree. Rolls will be 1-100, with the highest roll declared the winner. Each person may roll once per item of loot, and may only win one item per boss. Ties will be resolved by an additional 1-100 roll by those who had tied.

I'm probably forgetting something here, but yes, it does need to be this clear and this verbose.

My point. You are demanding things while simultaneously admitting that you dont know what they are.

and frankly none of us do.

Example 1)
Apparently you must also get it stated at the start EXACTLY what you are rolling for. If a MLer states "roll for the caster trinket", then ninjas it, that is okay, because he didnt specifically state what item was being rolled for. How you would get him to promise to do that at the start is beyond me, and then if he didnt, you are SOL on the item and being saved to the raid.

Example 2)
Apparently someone was on a pug, and had it in writing before the start "Will i be able to roll on X item" - "Yes" "Are you going to ninja it for yourself" - "No". Then when it drops the MLer does just that, takes it without a roll, and the GM says "tough shit". (not my experience, and before today i would have called BS, but now i totally see this happening)

Lesson - It really doesnt matter what you get in writing, someone can always poke holes in it.

Don't you see this as an excuse by blizz to not bother enforcing their set policy? Dont you see it as a problem that most people think that they are protected in some way . . . "Blizzard has a no ninja policy", when in fact they aren't protected at all?

---------- Post added 2011-07-12 at 01:33 AM ----------

Pugs I lead, rules are stated upfront as:
"MS > OS"
"MS is what you're playing here unless you tell me otherwise now."
(and use dps meter at end of fight to determine their role - it's not uncommon that someone switches spec after peeking at the loot - I just ridicule them first, then assign to the one that's supposed to get it)
"1 Need win / Boss unless no other needs."
"BoE MS + Bind > FFA roll." (can't really enforce the bind part but I ask them to bind and get inspected, or blacklist them for subsequent runs)

Totally worthless loot rules because you didnt state that "high roll wins". I have no more protection with those rules as i had with a simple MS>OS, at least according to Blizzard.

[Endus]

Yes, congratulations, you've figured out that rules get enforced by the words people use, not based on unspoken and unrecorded assumptions those participating may or may not have shared. This is how the world works pretty much everywhere.

[anothdae]

He's not a boomkin. He's a druid. Boomkin is one of his available specs.

Your quibbling. Contrary to popular belief its not productive.

So what? Maybe he just swapped this week. Maybe he's had a feral offset for a while but stopped trying to gear it up because he was always needed as ranged DPS or a healer, but now they need melee so he finally gets to go feral again.

You have no idea. Or proof. That's the point.

There is proof that he showed up as a moonkin, that he killed the boss as a moonkin, that he didnt say that his MS was anything but moonkin. Yes, you can argue all day about what he could possibly consider his MS to be, but all the evidence points to the fact that feral isnt his MS. If you dont agree with this fine, but you are really just arguing to argue at this point. No reasonable person would consider his MS to be feral if you look at all the evidence i listed.

Absolutely nothing you mentioned is any better than circumstantial evidence, and most of it isn't even that. Blizzard has absolutely no basis on which to take any action, which is why they didn't.

Not really accurate, they didn't even look for evidence either way. Its the difference between an unsolved murder and the police not even trying to solve it. They didnt take action not because there wasnt enough evidence, they didnt take action because they dont care enough even to investigate. The guy coulda said "Ima ninja this" for all they knew.

Their first response is a computer telling you that they dont care. If you follow up with a GM, he tells you that if a MLer does it, its not ninjaing. Wow, look at that, redefine terms and all the ninjaing in the game magically goes away. Except it doesnt.

"Loot will be assigned via a roll, lowest roll wins. Why? Because high rolls are boring."

"Loot will be assigned based on the spec you are for the raid. If you're here as a healer, you're getting off-spec priority for everything else. If multiple people need the same item for their spec, we'll do a roll, highest roll wins."

"Everyone has to pick a spec and state it in raid chat. This spec is the one you're looting for, if nobody needs it for their priority spec, it'll go to a straight /roll for anyone. Highest roll wins."

See my reply to ziwcam as to why these arent good enough per blizzard.
None of those specify what loot is what is being given out.
None of those specify who gets to roll.

Am i being anal? yeah, i am playing blizzard here. See how easy it is to find ways to not enforce rules?

Loot rules aren't hard. You just need to ensure you use verifiable in-game systems, rather than some nonexistent measure like "MS>OS", which doesn't exist in-game in any verifiable way. Guilds certainly use it, but asking Blizzard to rule on that is like asking Blizzard to rule on your guild's DKP. It won't ever happen.

I really dont agree. I dont think anyone would think of all the shit that blizzard demands. I just want blizzard to be honest and say "Its our policy to never interfere with loot" if thats what their policy is in practice if not on paper.

---------- Post added 2011-07-12 at 02:01 AM ----------

Yes, congratulations, you've figured out that rules get enforced by the words people use, not based on unspoken and unrecorded assumptions those participating may or may not have shared. This is how the world works pretty much everywhere.

Nope, i have found that a company i thought had an anti-scam/ninjaing policy really doesn't.

And no, there arent rules at all. I can tell a GM that i am going to ninja loot, and his response is that me stealing loot from people isnt ninjaing according to Blizzard. The words people use have a certain meaning, Blizzard enforces their policies with an entirely different and non standard meaning of those words. In the real world a court would look at what ninjaing was defined as. They wouldnt just take the defendants word for it. Saying Blizzard dosent allow ninjaing/scamming is deceptive to the point of outright lying.

[Endus]

There is proof that he showed up as a moonkin, that he killed the boss as a moonkin, that he didnt say that his MS was anything but moonkin. Yes, you can argue all day about what he could possibly consider his MS to be, but all the evidence points to the fact that feral isnt his MS. If you dont agree with this fine, but you are really just arguing to argue at this point. No reasonable person would consider his MS to be feral if you look at all the evidence i listed.

Again, "main spec" isn't something Blizzard ever thinks about. It's not an in-game term. They can access that information as easily as they can access your guild DKP data. In other words, not at all.

Not really accurate, they didn't even look for evidence either way. Its the difference between an unsolved murder and the police not even trying to solve it. They didnt take action not because there wasnt enough evidence, they didnt take action because they dont care enough even to investigate. The guy coulda said "Ima ninja this" for all they knew.

This is flat-out false. I got hacked through a 0-day vulnerability in AVG a while back, I reported it, they investigated, I got my stuff back. I've had several guildmates get stuff ninjaed, they reported it, it got handled.

The difference is they had evidence. You don't.

See my reply to ziwcam as to why these arent good enough per blizzard.
None of those specify what loot is what is being given out.
None of those specify who gets to roll.

It doesn't have to specify what loot is being rolled on until a particular piece is up for loot. The ML also doesn't have to announce beforehand if anything is reserved, though it's polite. And two of those DO specify who gets to roll. The first does not, on purpose.

Saying Blizzard dosent allow ninjaing/scamming is deceptive to the point of outright lying.

You provided no evidence of wrongdoing, so they don't have any rules?

You aren't making any sense at all.

[errosync]

If a MLer states "roll for the caster trinket", then ninjas it, that is okay, because he didnt specifically state what item was being rolled for

So let me get this straight. First you say an item is ninja'd after it is called out to be rolled on, but then you say that the ninja is in the clear because he didn't state what item was being rolled on? How does this even make any sense at all?

Then when it drops the MLer does just that, takes it without a roll, and the GM says "tough shit". (not my experience, and before today i would have called BS, but now i totally see this happening)

The only way the GM would say 'tough shit' is if you didn't have that conversation with the Master Looter in the first place. The evidence that loot distribution was established is in the chat, meaning the GM can actually certify that you aren't given him/her a line of total bull. If you cannot somehow provide irrefutable evidence within their system, they cannot do anything.

Back in Wrath when I healed on my druid, I specifically stated in any PuG I was in that I would be rolling on gear itemized for Balance as I was already kitted out for Restoration, and that I would not be touching healing leather sans it being BiS for that specific gear level for Balance. I did that in order to avoid the unnecessary bullshit that came along with the unmonitored system of 'MS over OS'.

Do I feel bad that you ran into a douche? Yeah. Do I believe Blizzard is on-the-money in telling you 'sorry, this is out of our hands'? Absolutely. You agreed to a ridiculously vague system of loot distribution without putting up a fight or even questioning it from the start. That is the problem. You assumed that the group would be following the 'Main spec is the spec you come as' system. They did not, and now you are upset because of it. Next time, get clarity on the rules, on what spec your potential competition is playing and get a solid statement in the Chat Window so that, should something arise, you have legitimate evidence to back up your story. As nice as it would be, not everyone is going to play 'fair' and nobody else but you can cover your ass, so get on it and stop complaining about nothing.

[anothdae]

Again, "main spec" isn't something Blizzard ever thinks about. It's not an in-game term. They can access that information as easily as they can access your guild DKP data. In other words, not at all.

Sorry, your right. Blizzard has no idea where people spend their talents.

[Amry]

Sorry, your right. Blizzard has no idea where people spend their talents.

I agreed with the OP at first, but reading the thread itself is giving me a new paradigm.

So OP, I have a Feral Kitty / Balance spec. Which one is my main?

Oh, and I change specs regularly because I'm fickle. I keep / loot / buy the best gear I can for both specs. Both of my gear sets are enchanted and gemmed properly.

So, which one is my main spec?

You might say, "the one you raided in, obviously". But as others pointed out, you don't necessarily raid in your "main spec". The term itself, as I just found out in this thread, is never "official' and defined by Blizzard. It's a subjective term. If I decided that I wanted to quit being a kitty and start gearing as a Bear, then the Bear will be my "main", right? But to Blizzard, who sees that I have a tonne of good Kitty / Balance gear, they might go, "hmm.. the Bear is an off-spec".

So no, I don't think you have a case to stand on.

[Frioz]

I agreed with the OP at first, but reading the thread itself is giving me a new paradigm.

So OP, I have a Feral Kitty / Balance spec. Which one is my main?

Oh, and I change specs regularly because I'm fickle. I keep / loot / buy the best gear I can for both specs. Both of my gear sets are enchanted and gemmed properly.

So, which one is my main spec?

I'm going to go with the lazar turkeys because, as a fire mage, the are the one spec/class I hunt down during bgs. Can't call myself a fire mage without cooking a boomkin.

[Amry]

I'm going to go with the lazar turkeys because, as a fire mage, the are the one spec/class I hunt down during bgs. Can't call myself a fire mage without cooking a boomkin.

What, you ran out of Elemental Shammies to bully?

[Frioz]

What, you ran out of Elemental Shammies to bully?

They all went enh and dispelled my blazing speed =(

[Endus]

Sorry, your right. Blizzard has no idea where people spend their talents.

Because nobody ever runs in a spec that's not their main, right?

Heck, for ever a year my "main spec" was my secondary spec. You can't even tell that way.

"Main spec" is not an identifiable concept within the game. "Current spec", sure, but that's both not relevant AND not what you're referring to.

[Ihnasir]

BH pug

There's always next week? Sorry for poisoning this thread with optimism.

[Amry]

As an addendum (forgot to point that out in my initial post), I changed spec mid-dungeon. Last weekend, I started H SFK as a Boomkin; but tired (and immensely confused by my new unit frame) of juggling the dots and cooldowns, I immediately switched to Feral after a pull (since Cats don't use mana, I judge that I'm not inconveniencing anyone).

So... in this case, is Feral my main spec, since I'm using it now, or Balance (the spec I started with)?

[Grizzly Willy]

I dont know, but I have been raiding a long time, and MS>OS always meant what spec you came as, and if there were any exceptions they were clearly stated alla "I am really DPS, im just healing because we need it".

Maybe its been just a bizzare string of luck that has lasted through years of pugs, but MS>OS implies what you are fighting with to me (and apparently everyone else i have ever pugged with).

If it really wasnt clear, why would it be a standard in puging? Why would everyone know what the acronym means? Its really quite simple and efficient, thats why everyone i know uses it.

---------- Post added 2011-07-12 at 12:45 AM ----------



And congratulations, you have proven that you can blahblahblah your way around every point i made.

One question for you. If i make a raid, advertise loot rules as "MS>OS", then take each item for myself at the end, do you think that that is ninjaing/scamming? Or do you think that that is and should be a common practice, "not remotely surprising or unfair"?

Telling somebody who made valid points that they are "blahblahblah-ing" around your points makes you a pretty poor debater, sir. And your retort is also, shall I say, bullshit, because him giving the piece to somebody who could use it is not the same as if he took all of the gear for himself.

[Frioz]

As an addendum (forgot to point that out in my initial post), I changed spec mid-dungeon. Last weekend, I started H SFK as a Boomkin; but tired (and immensely confused by my new unit frame) of juggling the dots and cooldowns, I immediately switched to Feral after a pull (since Cats don't use mana, I judge that I'm not inconveniencing anyone).

So... in this case, is Feral my main spec, since I'm using it now, or Balance (the spec I started with)?

Fine, I'll go frost and kill your feral druid.

You druids make things so annoying for mages these days.

[Skippy88]

Just do what I did when I raided. Just don't pug. Find a nice guild that distributes loot fairly and only raid with them. I found doing that was way less stressful. Now, if I only could have found a nice guild..................

[Deleted]

Because nobody ever runs in a spec that's not their main, right?

Heck, for ever a year my "main spec" was my secondary spec. You can't even tell that way.

"Main spec" is not an identifiable concept within the game. "Current spec", sure, but that's both not relevant AND not what you're referring to.

MS doesn't mean main spec anyway, MS>OS means My spec over other's spec...

[Tyrianth]

Sorry, your right. Blizzard has no idea where people spend their talents.

You've obviously never played a druid. Back in wrath my guild had very poor attendance and so I took it upon myself to fill the role of whatever the guild needed.

I had a healing set, a boomkin set, and a tanking set. I used them all frequently and all of them were relatively equal in gear level. So tell me, what was my main spec? I know what it was, my guild knows what it was, but a pug will not and nor would blizzard.

And for the record my main spec was resto. But I rarely got to play as resto because I was usually filling the roll of a miss tank or missing healer.

[Amry]

Fine, I'll go frost and kill your feral druid.

>implying I will not ambush you.