Article: DREAM Paragon 10-Man Ragnaros Kill, Cenarion Hatchling Pet, Blue Posts, Artworks

[Shadowdoom]

So, when a guild kills a boss. Does it typically take them just as long to kill it again? Are 10 and 25 mans completely different mechanics? Do 10 man guilds have a plethora of 35 people to hand pick, for each encounter? You're an idiot if you think 10 man h rag was completely unfamiliar to them, its just a repeat kill for them for them to stroke their e-peen and act like 25 man is harder. Real 10 man guilds can't keep that many people waiting around for perfect composition of fights. 32 attempts for a -repeat- kill is quite a few. I bet they dont have that many repeat attempts normally.

What about getting 25 ppl with a good internet together at the same time? And what make you think 10 man raid doesn't have the other ppl sitting outside the instance waiting to be rotated in? Many 10 man raids have 11-14 players as a main raider so it's just the same. They wiped for 32 attemps more because they have to adjust the new positioning, new healing way, adds managing, etc.

What you should think in comparing 10 and 25 man is not only about the difficulty, but also another factors like teamwork and stability of internet. People gives more credit to 25 man raiding because it needs *a lot more* of those additional factors than 10 man.

My friend is a member of 10 man raiding guild and sometimes it's very annoying to listen to them moarning about how hard 10 man is over 25 man, how unfair it is when it comes to loots, how hard it is when only 1 ppl didnt show up and they cant raid at all. Well I bet he never think about the same problem in 25 man, 25 ppl, 25 lives, 25 stories, 25 internet connections and computers. This can go on and on forever.

I'm gald Paragon kill this on 10 man. IMO they just do it to prove that the boss is killable and not overtuned in 10 man as some random ppl used to said.

And lets face it, many 10 man raiding guild choose to raid as a 10 man because it is impossible for them to find 25 ppl with proper connection, skills, and gears. As I've said, it's not only about the tune or difficulty but about the other factors. Some bosses will be a lot easier in 25 than 10 and some will be a lot harder in 25 than in 10.

[Mizpah]

At least the jumped up 10-manners can stop whining about how things are over-tuned. The way they go on about it is like it's impossible when Paragon have just thrown that bullshit out of the window, if it was soooooo hard and sooooo over-tuned do you not think they would've got a repeat kill within 32 attempts? Pull the other one.

The gear arguement is just a farce really, clutching at straws I would call it. Also a world top 10-man guild I'm sure would have alts and surplus members in order to switch around set-up etc and run alt raids to gear them also due to their reputation and world standings, don't be so naive.

Yes, 500+ wipes with all ten of their people experiencing ragnaros, which is THE SAME FIGHT on 10 and 25, exact same fight, and 32 more wipes on THE SAME FIGHT. Is it so hard to comprehend that the same people, were doing the same boss, just with a different number of players? If they did ragnaros heroic 10 man before 25, do you think they would have not taken 500 attempts? Do you think that 99% of every guild getting a repeat kill each week of a boss they have downed is just mere coincidence? THEY KNEW THE FIGHT and it was the next reset, they didn't do 25m on those toons just 10 man.

[Shadowdoom]

Yes, 500+ wipes with all ten of their people experiencing ragnaros, which is THE SAME FIGHT on 10 and 25, exact same fight, and 32 more wipes on THE SAME FIGHT. Is it so hard to comprehend that the same people, were doing the same boss, just with a different number of players? If they did ragnaros heroic 10 man before 25, do you think they would have not taken 500 attempts? Do you think that 99% of every guild getting a repeat kill each week of a boss they have downed is just mere coincidence? THEY KNEW THE FIGHT and it was the next reset, they didn't do 25m on those toons just 10 man.

It's the exact same fight, but 10 man and 25 needed to be done with a different strat. So basically is not that exact same fight.

If you really know the fight, you would know for example, P2 with the Seeds dmg, 10 man is a lot easier to minimize the damage and healing with the different strat since there're only 10 ppl. If you read what they've said you'll see that they got rid of their complicated strat they used in 25 because it's not fit for 10 man, then they killed the boss. The point is 10 man guilds said the boss is overtuned in 10man so Paragon go to see if its true or not, and it turns out not for them and kick that overtuned bullshit out of the window.

[Farora]

Hah a 'statement' from Paragon.

[Mizpah]

It's the exact same fight, but 10 man and 25 needed to be done with a different strat. So basically is not that exact same fight.

If you really know the fight, you would know for example, P2 with the Seeds dmg, 10 man is a lot easier to minimize the damage and healing with the different strat since there're only 10 ppl. If you read what they've said you'll see that they got rid of their complicated strat they used in 25 because it's not fit for 10 man, then they killed the boss. The point is 10 man guilds said the boss is overtuned in 10man so Paragon go to see if its true or not, and it turns out not for them and kick that overtuned bullshit out of the window.

You know what happens when there are 25 people, compared to 10 people? you have more raid cooldowns to survive BS like seeds. You have more knockbacks for the same amount of firelords. Failing to see the point? Its not that hard to see if you have half a brain. Paragon is the only one that knows, they are trying to discredit 10 mans to make themselves feel better.

[Phasmatus]

You know what happens when there are 25 people, compared to 10 people? you have more raid cooldowns to survive BS like seeds. You have more knockbacks for the same amount of firelords. Failing to see the point? Its not that hard to see if you have half a brain. Paragon is the only one that knows, they are trying to discredit 10 mans to make themselves feel better.

I don't know about all of you, but this kind of made me lol.

[Nozyk]

You know what happens when there are 25 people, compared to 10 people? you have more raid cooldowns to survive BS like seeds. You have more knockbacks for the same amount of firelords. Failing to see the point? Its not that hard to see if you have half a brain. Paragon is the only one that knows, they are trying to discredit 10 mans to make themselves feel better.

They're the only guild in the world to do both 10 and 25 H Rag. They don't need to discredit one difficulty size in order to feel better. Their world first makes them feel pretty good.

And you sound like another 10 man raider who is upset that 10 man is easier than 25 man. What you really should be upset about are the claims Blizzard made about 10 and 25 being equal difficulty, when they so clearly are not.

[Sonrisa]

It's so funny how 10 man raiders are so butthurt. So if 25 man is so much easier with all their cooldowns battlerezes and other random crap that supposedly make it oh so much easier, how come that paragon, when stepping over to the higher difficulty 10 man (less cooldowns, only 1 brez, yada,yada) go and kill it in "only" 32 attempts. If 10 man were that much harder I'd have expected them to have a litle bit more trouble, it is hader after all right? oh wait...

[NilModern]

Edited for posterity.

[matters]

Grats to Paragon for downing rag in both difficulties.

[chocobo123]

They able to do 10man HC that concluded one thing that 10man rag HC is possible. Is it harder than 25man or not? I think the wipe number can tell a bit. Yes they knew the fight, but they gotta adapt some strategy also. Only 32 wipes proof that it is not so hard and possible for any guild to try it if they know correct tactic. And i think it may require some special tactics else others might have down it in 10man already.

[Fujisaw]

you also gotta rememeber they tried doing there 25man strat for 10man which isnt needed and was what was preventing them from downing it. so if they went into the fight knowing to no use the 25man strat it probally would have been killed even faster

[kynd]

You know what happens when there are 25 people, compared to 10 people? you have more raid cooldowns to survive BS like seeds. You have more knockbacks for the same amount of firelords. Failing to see the point? Its not that hard to see if you have half a brain. Paragon is the only one that knows, they are trying to discredit 10 mans to make themselves feel better.

Making themselves feel better? If you want to put that logic to it, I think it would be better to brag that it only took them 32 attempts to kill a "harder" form of the boss, compared to 500+ on a 25 man easier version.

So, I'll form this same argument in another way, hopefully this time it will make sense to you.

Potential statement from Paragon - "10 man was WAY harder than 25. Thankfully we are awesome and it only took us 32 attempts. This really just proves how much better we are than all the other 10 man guilds in the world. Thank you and good night."

[mtawney1313]

They already had their strat with the 25 man it's not like it's a totally different encounter on ten mans. btw on my alt warrior I know it's only reg firelands but we pugged a 25 man FL's and we one shotted all the bosses up until rag, with half the raid dying almost on every fight which was ridiculous. One person dies on 10 and it's pretty much a wipe.

I'm going to call BS on that one.

---------- Post added 2011-07-24 at 08:27 AM ----------

I love how they keep blaming wipes on disconnects. it either looks like an excuse or it looks like they all need better connections, because they mention it ALL THE TIME.

Well they are the best guild in the world, so I'm sure they have players in different parts of the world and thus, a handful of players are likely quite a distance from the server.

[Astador]

Never understood people who claim 25 man is more difficult than 10 man. Maybe back in Wrath where there was a lot of damage spread around if you were too close to other people and the encounter areas were smaller. But now? No way. It's simple logic. In 25 man you have more than double the people of a 10 man raid. Are the encounters more than twice as hard on 25 man? No, they aren't. Take Baleroc, for example. There are still only, at most, two tanks required. These tanks take the same amount of damage as they do in 10 man. The only extra damage is the people who have to handle the extra shard. And you've got double the healers (or more) to handle that. Then, of course, you get into the whole idea of raid stacking. The more slots you have available for people, the more you can stack classes you want. A heavy aoe fight? Well, you've got 15-16 spots for dps to play with. 10 man has six. The only fight in this tier that seems like it might be more difficult on 25 man is Rhyolith. The island is rather small with volcanoes being all over the place and whatnot. Still, the ticking damage gets put on what, six people in 25 man as opposed to 3 in 10 man? So you still can out-manage that with extra spots for healers. How about mistakes? The more people you have, the less influential each of those person's mistakes are to the raid. A healer screws up in 10 man and dies, the tank is probably toast. If he isn't, you've wasted your one rez to get them back up. No more major mistakes are allowed from anyone. In 25 man you just keep rezzing people. A healer goes down? Well, you've got 6 others to make up the difference. There's a reason all the guilds do 25-man attempts for world firsts. Because it's easier. Our guild talks day in and day out about how we wish we had enough people to run 25 mans. Why? Because the content (that is already fairly easy) would become a joke and we'd be having purps come out our ears. But nope. We're stuck slogging it out in 10 mans, DEing half the stuff we get and wishing it were better.

[Thundertom]

Why can't people just say "Grats guys! That's a great achievement!"

I honestly don't see why people get so upset and distrustful when it comes to these things, automatically assuming they cheated the system, they did something that shouldn't be done.

Can't we just say "Cool stuff guys! How did you do it, so we can learn from it?"

Maybe I'm just a hopeless romantic who still believes in the good of people, lol!

[Deleted]

Why can't people just say "Grats guys! That's a great achievement!"

I honestly don't see why people get so upset and distrustful when it comes to these things, automatically assuming they cheated the system, they did something that shouldn't be done.

Can't we just say "Cool stuff guys! How did you do it, so we can learn from it?"

Maybe I'm just a hopeless romantic who still believes in the good of people, lol!

people are just being jaleous and used to the idea that people always "beat the system" in order to succed in something great

I will say congratz to them, but what I will say is: "Meh, no shamans... AGAIN, figures."

[Deleted]

pve looks hard!

[Aerion]

Well they are the best guild in the world, so I'm sure they have players in different parts of the world and thus, a handful of players are likely quite a distance from the server.

Actually if I'm not horribly mistaken they are all from Finland. The reason for multiple disconnects during the last few weeks have been the enormous lightning storms that we've had here in Finland, cutting trees over power lines and disturbing internet connections.

[skeebopshapow]

oh did the best guild in the world kill the boss again? oh i guess so.