If you have a 10man guild that is stong, is it viable to go 25?

[Deleted]

The problem is that we like 10man, we really do but we have 2 big problems:

1. A player is missing, the whole raid is destroyed. if we have 2 standbies, they won't stay in guild long. Shuffling players for bosses isn't that easy either since in progression bosses, that are a lot, we want the same best players.

2. Bufs. We find it extremely hard to have all bufs and abilities in raid. 25man are like "who cares" because they are so many they will have them anyway. And if they miss 1, it's easy to find it. In good cases we have all but 1 or 2 missing. But that missing may be huge. e.g. now we miss often at least spell damage of 8% (huge) or 3% spell crit.

[Myrlae]

1. Get players that don't bitch about not being in the raid for one week.
2. Get 1-2 hunters.

[Deleted]

Get 1-2 hunters.

Spell crit? Currently it is only given by fire mages and all locks. We don't have a lock. We do have a mage but it is forced to be arcane because it's the only viable apart for alysrazor [and no other source of flat dmg buf as well].

Particularly crit debuf of spell is very mismanaged by Blizzard, given only by 1 class and 1 rarely played subclass. I think it's the same with 1 or 2 other bufs but we're lucky and have them.

[Deleted]

1. Get players that don't bitch about not being in the raid for one week.
2. Get 1-2 hunters.

Hunter are useless for buffs that need to be applied tho, and with that going around the bug that hunter pet debuffs dont get applied properly on bosses the pets cant get behind :s

[Deleted]

Assasination rogues give 8% spell buff also, Master Poisoner talent

[Pandorox]

Ass Rogue give 8% spell also and so does Unholy DK
Ebon Plaguebringer
Master Poisoner

As for the 5% crit debuff only Fire mages and Destro locks give that.

[Deleted]

If you have a 10man guild that is stong, is it viable to go 25?

no, it's not viable. we've tried in february back then and it was a major setback. we were realmthird and could recruit some descent players that were all pretty well in their respective 10 man guilds. switching to 25 man will net you with some unexpected difficulties that will most likely screw your raid and will give you the worst gaming experience ever (at least hat happened to us).

1. System ressources:
if you run at smooth 40 fps in 10m, expect them to go down to 20 or even below in 25. if some players play with 30 fps, they will have some 1-2 fps passages happening.
also you will experience loads of disconnects due to limited bandwith etc

2. new tactics:
limited space requires some different tactics here and there and way more attention.

3. dps requirements are way more tight and the fights also last way longer

4. theres aoe everywhere /more bossabilities everywhere.
like 3 frostorbs in maloriakk p2, orbs at majordomo. orbs in ragna p3 etc etc and those are also harder to spot as 25 bodies/spelleffects conceal them.

some players fakedisconnected that evening and we gave up. if you can however merge with a guild which is approximately your level you can still enjoy your raid. but you will wipe quite some time on farm bosses. some players wont be willing to stand that and QQ. personally i switched guilds for th reason you stated + it's such a major loss when someone quits the guild. gearing up a selected player can take several weeks in 10m which is incredibly annoying.

now to your points:
1. youll need to find a proper rotation. 11-12 ppl are simply neccessary in 10m if you dont want to abort too many raids. just make sure to rotate all dps and plan ahead. nobody will stay if hes only used in every 3rd raid. but most are fine if there is a fair rotation and they know beforehand whether or not they are needed that evening and can plan their evenings accordingly.

2. bringing most important buffs is pretty easy. if you dont have a wl for spellcrit it's obviously bad luck. but enrage timers in 10m are really forgiving. use some potions.

[Advice Dog]

My current guild was primarily a 10-man guild during tier 11 content, and managed to get 8/13 Heroic with a group of new people raiding together for some of the first times. Now on into Firelands, we've gotten Ragnaros down, and had started recruiting to expand into 25-player raids.

The most difficult part that the guild leader and officers are experiencing is finding just the right player to fit just the right role we need, and to go along with that, have them be able to jump right in to raiding with us and think/play with the guild at a quick pace.

Of course, it's all easier said than done, and wrangling together 25 people for a common goal is noticeably more difficult than it is to get 10 together, but the rewards are better as a result.

Really, if the powers that be in your guild are confidant and talented enough to get 10-player raids under their belt (heroics would be even better,) then there's no reason why they shouldn't be able to get 25-player raids down as well. It'll just take some time to form a viable team.

[Indiglo]

Ass Rogue give 8% spell also and so does Unholy DK
Ebon Plaguebringer
Master Poisoner

As for the 5% crit debuff only Fire mages and Destro locks give that.

As do Dragonhawk's, if you have a Hunter tell him/her to do some research. Our pets can provide all of the needed buffs/debuffs (not at the same time of course).

[Shockzilla]

I was in a 10 Guild for several years and the issues you described happened to us all the time, mostly we could change the nights we raided on and it would be fine. But then there were issuers that came up that would stop us cold for weeks, work schedules, school and vacations. Then the times when people were sick or taking care of someone, these can’t be helped and we never had a problem with them. Here is some of what I took from those years.
Raiding with people in different time zones can be a challenge when they are only 1 zone over, I wouldn’t try to set up a raiding guild with anyone more than 1 time zone away. It’s too hard to adjust raid times.
People still in collage have very fluctuating schedules and when it’s exam time studying for the test takes presidents, if you’re going to raid with collage students be prepared for lots of schedule changes for raiding.
Being marred people can be a bigger issue than all the others, someone getting the hook during a raid to take care of a child is understandable put it still kills the raid that night.
10 men raiding is fun and the raiders become close many friendships bloom. But that can be an issue if the guild breaks up. Your old guildies can frequently become like ex-boy/girl friends and that animosity can come out.

[Twoflower]

1. A player is missing, the whole raid is destroyed. if we have 2 standbies, they won't stay in guild long. Shuffling players for bosses isn't that easy either since in progression bosses, that are a lot, we want the same best players.

You need backup players. You also need them to be geared and to know how you are playing. Make a roster of 15 players and rotate all the time. You can not have a 10 man raid group with 10 people. Just not possible. If one is missing, it all goes down the frizz.

And what good are backup raiders if they dont know the fight and dont have the gear when you need them ?

For people to gear up on themself and inform themself on bosses and do random raids if you dont need them for your main raid and be ready all the time without getting a raidspot you must be THE MOST AWESOME SUPER DUPER GUILD EVER ! Which you are not.

[rasfael]

You need backup players. You also need them to be geared and to know how you are playing. Make a roster of 15 players and rotate all the time. You can not have a 10 man raid group with 10 people. Just not possible. If one is missing, it all goes down the frizz.

And what good are backup raiders if they dont know the fight and dont have the gear when you need them ?

For people to gear up on themself and inform themself on bosses and do random raids if you dont need them for your main raid and be ready all the time without getting a raidspot you must be THE MOST AWESOME SUPER DUPER GUILD EVER ! Which you are not.

In order to set a good rotation for your raiders, have them to write down a "wishlist" of all the loot they need and try to prioritize players that need loot on that particular boss. Of course, assuming everyone performs equally and attend equally to the raids (another 2 other criteria that you can consider).

During progression don't be afraid of experimenting with different setups and stick with the one performing better.

At the end of the day, having those 2-3 backup players in your roster will actually stabilish a positive competition and will certainly incentive everyone to perform better.

[Harsesis]

The lock buff is different than the mages. The mages is a buff on players while the lock is debuff on the target.

[rated]

The problem is that we like 10man, we really do but we have 2 big problems:

1. A player is missing, the whole raid is destroyed. if we have 2 standbies, they won't stay in guild long. Shuffling players for bosses isn't that easy either since in progression bosses, that are a lot, we want the same best players.

2. Bufs. We find it extremely hard to have all bufs and abilities in raid. 25man are like "who cares" because they are so many they will have them anyway. And if they miss 1, it's easy to find it. In good cases we have all but 1 or 2 missing. But that missing may be huge. e.g. now we miss often at least spell damage of 8% (huge) or 3% spell crit.

How hard was it to get that strong 10man group to where it is ?

Apply & multiple that with 25 other personalities now.

[Deleted]

The problem is that we like 10man, we really do but we have 2 big problems:

1. A player is missing, the whole raid is destroyed. if we have 2 standbies, they won't stay in guild long. Shuffling players for bosses isn't that easy either since in progression bosses, that are a lot, we want the same best players.

2. Bufs. We find it extremely hard to have all bufs and abilities in raid. 25man are like "who cares" because they are so many they will have them anyway. And if they miss 1, it's easy to find it. In good cases we have all but 1 or 2 missing. But that missing may be huge. e.g. now we miss often at least spell damage of 8% (huge) or 3% spell crit.

I am part of the officer crew in a guild with two strong 10 man groups, we have tried going 25 for fun and do it on BH every week for additional loot. But in general our raiders feel that 25 is annoying chaotic and extremely laggy, personally I am playing with less than 1 fps on Occu'Thar on 25 man. Lowering my dps from what would be around 30k to 20k. Personally, I think you need a rocket scientist computer or some secret information that I don't have, in order to sustain a 25 man raid without lagging, you also need to find 25 non-retards if you want to make some kind of progress, which is incredibly hard. However, I believe, if you do manage to get a raid full of competent players, that 25 will be easier to progress through than 10 man. As I said, if you have a raid full of competent players.