Firelands Raid 10 vs 25 Comparison, BlizzCon Site, European Bnet Invitational, Comics

[Hobolin]

lololol, one thing i do know from reading this, is that Paragon doesn't know the real issues with 10man guilds. 10man guilds are formed b/c they have limited number of raiders, even that, many of the 10man guilds still experiencing attendance issues, may it be expected or unexpected. They are saying this out of their own feel, and its completely bias. No, 10man guild is not going to have the easier comp, if they can get any comp they want, they would turn into a 25man guild.

[endoscient]

that's why dps on WOL is always higher on 25 versus 10 man

Its higher because all the good players play in 25man guilds.

[Jurwi]

lololol, one thing i do know from reading this, is that Paragon doesn't know the real issues with 10man guilds. 10man guilds are formed b/c they have limited number of raiders, even that, many of the 10man guilds still experiencing attendance issues, may it be expected or unexpected. They are saying this out of their own feel, and its completely bias. No, 10man guild is not going to have the easier comp, if they can get any comp they want, they would turn into a 25man guild.

And that's your opinion, which is just as biased. Not every 10man guild is made up of first random 10 classes you find in Orgrimmar, which is a bit what you make it sound like.

[good diu bro]

Before people read into the "10 MAN IZ EZ MOAD", DREAM Paragon made it a point to say that it was only easy if a 10-man raid has the player resources to switch out players for optimal specs/classes for certain fights. Hence why you'll find people on 10-man stuck on Beth'tilac because they have 2 paladin healers.

Some specs are just outright disadvantaged when it comes to a role in some of these fights, and some can just breeze through it, and a lot of 10-man raiding guilds simply do not have the people to switch out an Arcane Mage for a Hunter, or a Holy Paladin for a resto Druid. Hence, probably why there is a percieved lenient DPS curve for 10-man.

Sounds reasonable. Maybe the reason for lower gear/dps requirement is to give room for raid composition. This of cause doesnt applied to DREAM Paragon, the master of raid stacking.

[Hobolin]

yep, its my opinion, and several other 10man GM's opinions too. I hope you do realize, that you can't fit every spec into a 10man group, or even every class, and expecting raiders to be on standby every raiding day while the core group is raiding. Or, having every core raider to have multiple toons available, so you can have the best class comp for each and every heroic bosses.

[ashin]

This is coming from someone who has played since vanilla, but never raided regularly after BC's release...but personally, I share the sentiment but for entirely different reasons. Something most players nowadays have never experienced, or conveniently forgotten, is that nearly all endgame content prior to the onslaught of 20+ player raids in response to the complaints of a very vocal 3-5% of players came in the form of 5- to 10-mans that could be PuG'ed by a group of competent players in greens.

By competent I don't mean "yeah, I just solo kited the end boss when the rest of the group wiped on pull," I mean "yeah, I can kite Drakk", which was the simplest role in what used to be the most technically-demanding encounter in the game*. This was prior to the random dungeon finder and cross-server dungeons, when a player could build a reputation on a given server for good (or poor) competency or conduct and as a result, groups were much more selective of who was invited to participate.

The post-BC design sentiment is overwhelmingly in favor of raiding guilds. Blizzard's been all over the place with implementing that, whether it's the harshly over-tuned BC-era raids which overrode their early attempts at genuine hybridization through reinforcing class roles and "raid optimization" that catered to no one but the "hardcore" 4%, the Wrath-era in which raids were little more than loot and achievement farms, or the Cataclysm-era which to this point seems to try to find a happy medium of the two yet somehow managed to create a harsher series of gear requirements and progression climbing than what was even found in the BC era. Through it all, the common factor is that once the player (very quickly) hits maximum level, the only progression paths are to join a guild and raid, run dungeons for VP/JP, farm gold and buy gear upgrades through the AH, or participate in PvP (which still at least requires pre-made groups and PvP guilds now AFAIK). Only one of those progression paths sees genuinely new, quality content released on a regular basis, let alone sufficient content for the game to stay fresh until the next release.

Personally, I wish Blizzard would dump the 20+ raid category for anything but novelty value or truly endgame encounters (the final boss of an expansion cycle or encounters with major lore characters, for example) and refocus on 5- to 10-man dungeons that focus on mechanics, coordination, and player skill above gear checking. That's the way the game was on launch, and honestly it's most engaging and enjoyable point despite its numerous flaws. As I mentioned before, Drakkisath was the most difficult encounter in the game at one point* yet a group of players in random drop greens could wipe the floor with him if they knew the encounter and their role.

* Up until AQ, anyhow. Exception made for certain fake-difficulty raid encounters which utilized random attributes or mechanics that were less about being a good player than not causing a wipe by being in the wrong place at the wrong time for any reason.

Great post.

[Suggs]

omg more "because paragon said so it must be true" bullshit.
How about posting something interesting on mmo champ for a change rather than paragon shit all the time.
All fanbois should go visit THERE website, no need to duplicate that shit here.

[Deleted]

25 man guilds will always belittle 10 man guild because they are threatened by them. There's no difference in difficulty if your raid team are all equally skilled, unless it's something that Blizzard has overlooked making the encounter harder than it should be.

[Prag]

Interesting read from Paragon. I've done both 10- and 25-man focused Raid Leading, and I always felt like 25-man had much more versatility. Of course, that wasn't even in the same ballpark as the type of progression Paragon is doing, so my opinion is your "average" players opinion. Either way, thanks for linking it Boub. Enjoyed reading it.

[Deleted]

I love the way the Shammy brigade is up in arms (pun possibly intended), but there is also no use of a Warrior either and only a couple of fights with Rogues. Much love going to Druids though

[Xeones]

I like how Paragon goes into QQ mode when 10 man is slightly easier. But in T11 while 25 was faceroll and 10 was hard they were silent. Funny how that happens.

[magicism]

Paragon really hate shaman.

[Sidone]

They don't QQ. They just confirm that indeed the 10 man is not slightly, but much more easier then 25 man. It's good they show this. Heck, lets hope Blizz reads it. When my semi capable 10 man can keep up with our core 25 man raiders progress wise, you know the gap is too big.

[Gisho]

25 t11 was faceroll? So you did all encounters in 25 mode on the first day and got world first?

[Naix]

Druids are again the best healers in game. Priests are crying.

[timbli]

in 4.0 wasn't 25-man easier than 10-man??? all the 25-man fights i did (occuthar and argaloth) were far more easy in 25-man. yo ucan lost 3 or 4 dps in that battle, or having people way under 10k dps and still do it. but in 10-man losing 1 people made thing much more difficult. everyone told me the same thing. Half of my 10-man group was in a 25-man raid before we changed guild in 4.2 . And everyone agrees that 25-man was easier than 10-man.

[shimargh]

25m with well geared ppl it's way more easy than 10m with top geared ppl...

anyway, flame me, call me stupid or whatever...i rather do 10 man with 8 or 10 classes and make it fit, that just go for the exact comp, just for the fight.
but that's me, i don't throw shit to other "beliefs".

-i don't like 25m, it's just like a "monkey party"...

[davep]

Sounds reasonable. Maybe the reason for lower gear/dps requirement is to give room for raid composition. This of cause doesnt applied to DREAM Paragon, the master of raid stacking.

it's also not made up of 10 friends that decided to level to 85 together knowing what the perfect raid comp would be.

All I got from that interview was that 10man and 25man are the same difficulty but if you don't have the correct raid comp for 10man you are screwed which is harder to get because if it was easy then everyone would just make a 25man guild.

[Adalwolf]

Its higher because all the good players play in 25man guilds.

No, it's higher because 25-mans have more debuffs on the target (and sometimes more buffs on the players too, depending on the class setup). It's impossible for a 10m raider to archieve the same DPS as a 25m raider.

Bosses in 10-man have lower HP not only because you are missing 9~11 DPSers, but because each of your 5~8 DPSers do less damage as well.

[Dreth]

Someone on this very website did a comparison of Paragon's 10 man group and other 10 man heroic guilds who are currently working on Heroic Ragnaros. Guess what? Paragon's group had a whopping ONE item level advantage over the 10 man guilds.

And they ofc got loot from that 10hc kill so it was even lower when the fight started