Heroic Ragnaros 25 and the end of the line

[Deleted]

tl;dr: Ragnaros Heroic 25 is too hard.

I've decursived on Lucifron. Out-of-combat ressed on Baron Geddon. Fought the first, unkillable incarnation of Ragnaros at 60. Fought Vaelastrasz for an hour. Fought untauntable drakes. Farmed Mauradon for Huhuran. Fought Claw Tentacles in C'thun's stomach. Been killed outside Naxxramas after an hour and a half of Loatheb prep. Leveled a Warrior for The Four Horsemen. Farmed Black Temple for nearly 10 months. Killed Kil'Jaeden before M'uru got nerfed. Breathed a sigh of relief when Yogg0 got nerfed.

Now I'm on Ragnaros Heroic 25 and for the first time in my substantial history raiding in World of Warcraft I am on the verge of giving up.

This isn't an encounter that you bang your head against until "that guy" doesn't get Defile. This is an encounter that doesn't permit you to have "that guy" in your raid at all. Of course, he also punishes you horrendously for bringing anything but the perfect set up. I'm not going to argue that the encounter is impossible without a perfect set up - it isn't. I will say: Paragon's line-up. Did you see how their live raid went?

Anyway back to "that guy". Every guild not currently marked 7/7 on the wowprogress.com frontpage has them. As you flip through the pages the guilds you're seeing get fewer and worse applications. They make do. They have "that guy"s. And Ragnaros, unlike any of the encounters I mentioned above including the often voted "HARDEST BOSS EVAARRR" M'uru (he wasn't) doesn't allow them to. "That guy", along with every other member of your raid will be required to flawlessly execute with perfect consistency several tasks throughout the encounter. The coordination Ragnaros demands from 25 of your raiders is what you'd expect from a highly trained team of Navy Seals. The slightest chink in your raid's armor, the tiniest error in judgement, anything but the very best performance from one of your players and you crumble like you just found all those people in your ventrilo channel in trade chat.

We along with many other guilds might kill him. In several months when we're decked in 391. But it will have stopped being fun long before that. Soon my raiders will start to despise each other for not being the machines this encounter requires them to be. They'll quit and I'll have to fill the gaps they leave with even more infuriatingly incapable raiders until either Ragnaros through an act of god falls over, or my guild does.

I urge Blizzard to step away from this 6 joke bosses, 1 horrifying monstrosity of a guild ender model. It's killing my inner raider's soul.

[dragtch9]

I don't see what the problem is with having a boss that, when you aren't completely decked out in the tier appropriate gear (i.e read as less than 385 or so average item level), is incredibly difficult. If you're afraid of your raiders getting burnt out before you have the gear to kill him, I suggest you don't pound your heads into him for most of the week and end up not killing him.

Back in Wrath I was in a guild during Ulduar where we would clear everything we could in the first night or two of the raid week. The next night we would try to do some progression (hardmodes), we had a very simple five pull policy. If we weren't showing significant improvement by the end of the fifth pull, we would just move on. We may not have progressed as fast as any top guilds, but we never lost anyone to being burnt out.

We only lost impatient people who would rather do be in a more progressed guild, but getting burnt out much faster. Some of them even ended up coming back saying they stopped having fun because they spent three out of their five nights working on Yogg-Saron (Alone in the Darkness).

[Deleted]

Geez relax, it will be nerfed, just like every single fight like this in history. And then the kills will be divided into "pre-nerf" and "post-nerf", just like Yogg+0 for example. Could be nerfed next week, could be nerfed in September, we don't know. If you can't handle it, take a break until it's nerfed.

[Trispec]

I don't see what the problem is with having a boss that, when you aren't completely decked out in the tier appropriate gear (i.e read as less than 385 or so average item level), is incredibly difficult. If you're afraid of your raiders getting burnt out before you have the gear to kill him, I suggest you don't pound your heads into him for most of the week and end up not killing him.

Back in Wrath I was in a guild during Ulduar where we would clear everything we could in the first night or two of the raid week. The next night we would try to do some progression (hardmodes), we had a very simple five pull policy. If we weren't showing significant improvement by the end of the fifth pull, we would just move on. We may not have progressed as fast as any top guilds, but we never lost anyone to being burnt out.

We only lost impatient people who would rather do be in a more progressed guild, but getting burnt out much faster. Some of them even ended up coming back saying they stopped having fun because they spent three out of their five nights working on Yogg-Saron (Alone in the Darkness).

What he's getting at is a raid should have balanced difficulty, not one boss requiring perfection and the rest being no where near the endboss.

[Lumocolor]

If M'uru was so easy why did it takes months for the first kill and your now here complaining for a nerf after less than 1 month of Rag being out and his first kill being in the second week?

Blizzard makes these fights for those that are 7/7, if those fights aren't there those players will get bored and leave the game. Everyone who isn't in those crazy guilds gets to kill it later after nerfs.

[Herecius]

If M'uru was so easy why did it takes months for the first kill and your now here complaining for a nerf after less than 1 month of Rag being out and his first kill being in the second week?

Mu'ru was killed in a few days of being released.

Anyways, I, for one, welcome our new ultra-raid boss overlords.

[Trispec]

May i ask how your guild is progressing on rag? Whats the best attempt you've had?

[Belloc]

If your leadership isn't willing to replace/remove "that guy," then stop attempting Rag. If it's too hard for you guys, you don't have to kill it.

[Video Games]

My guild is a server first guild but unless they nerf him I'm sure we won't kill him.

[Neganova]

If M'uru was so easy why did it takes months for the first kill and your now here complaining for a nerf after less than 1 month of Rag being out and his first kill being in the second week?

I don't think he is.

What he's getting at is a raid should have balanced difficulty, not one boss requiring perfection and the rest being no where near the endboss.

I think this is more along the lines of his thought process.

[Sanadoz]

We need more of these kind of fights not fewer. Heroic Ragnaros is a prime example of why I still play and raid in this game. If you can't kill him in its current state wait a few weeks//months until blizzard thinks 200+ guilds should be 7/7 HM.

I agree with you that there should be a better balance for heroic modes in a tier. Prior to Baleroc's nerf it was 5 easy bosses, 1 hard (baleroc) and 1 insanely difficult(rag). I think they could have lowered Rag's difficulty just a notch but bump up all the other fights significantly. The end result would be that most guilds wouldn't even be 6/7 HM like they are right now. Does that seem appealing?

Yes the fight is hard. I think its probably the hardest fight Blizzard has ever released. Do I want it nerfed? Heck no. My guild is getting there and seeing him get nerfed would crush my soul.

[Trispec]

We need more of these kind of fights not fewer. Heroic Ragnaros is a prime example of why I still play and raid in this game. If you can't kill him in its current state wait a few weeks//months until blizzard thinks 200+ guilds should be 7/7 HM.

I agree with you that there should be a better balance for heroic modes in a tier. Prior to Baleroc's nerf it was 5 easy bosses, 1 hard (baleroc) and 1 insanely difficult(rag). I think they could have lowered Rag's difficulty just a notch but bump up all the other fights significantly. The end result would be that most guilds wouldn't even be 6/7 HM like they are right now. Does that seem appealing?

Yes the fight is hard. I think its probably the hardest fight Blizzard has ever released. Do I want it nerfed? Heck no. My guild is getting there and seeing him get nerfed would crush my soul.

People need a sense of progression to keep playing, staying 6/7 H for months on end wiping to one boss is what burns people out.

[Herecius]

People need a sense of progression to keep playing, staying 6/7 H for months on end wiping to one boss is what burns people out.

That's really a matter of opinion - my guild spent grueling months working on heroic Lich King as you describe, watching some people get burned out, others come in (and in fact, I was one of those that came in!), and many stay for the long haul, and the feeling of killing it finally was all the reward I needed. Experiences may vary.

[Trispec]

That's really a matter of opinion - I spent several grueling months working on heroic Lich King as you describe, and the feeling of killing it finally was all the reward I needed. Experiences may vary.

Not trying to bash you or anything but I'd probably be right in saying you lost a decent amount of people during those few months of progression.

[Herecius]

Not trying to bash you or anything but I'd probably be right in saying you lost a decent amount of people during those few months of progression.

It's the nature of the game, but many others stayed for the long haul.

[jrswish1g]

Man, you gotta push through this guy. i have roughly 50+ attempts on him and we've only seen phase 2 like a few times.. we can barely make it through phase 1 transition... lol

[Maxsul]

If M'uru was so easy why did it takes months for the first kill and your now here complaining for a nerf after less than 1 month of Rag being out and his first kill being in the second week?

Blizzard makes these fights for those that are 7/7, if those fights aren't there those players will get bored and leave the game. Everyone who isn't in those crazy guilds gets to kill it later after nerfs.

Hey let's make fights for 100 people.

[Dannz]

If M'uru was so easy why did it takes months for the first kill and your now here complaining for a nerf after less than 1 month of Rag being out and his first kill being in the second week?

99.9% sure that M'uru was killed 2 days after he was available... he didn't last months.... didn't even last a week for the first ever kill.

OT: i don't have experience with ragnaros heroic, but i personally see no problem with blizzard creating a boss so difficault. it's not for everyone to do ragnaros heroic. he is for the really... really... really... good people, not your in-between-awesome-and-"getting by"-players. speaking as someone who did all wotlk hardmodes, and banged my head against the lich king for months before killing him, i can honestly say: these bosses that test your ability to perform 100% for +15mins can be frustrating, burn you out, and make you scream at the monitor. but in the end, when you do kill it, it's SOOOO worth it :3

[Herecius]

Hey let's make fights for 100 people.

A good example of way that Blizzard has to look at encounters is an arms race - not just an arms race against the power of addons, but against the skill of the players as well. As players have gotten better and better over the years (and don't think for a second they haven't - there's a particularly hilarious Paragon post about how he remembered kill Naxx 40 content when it was current, in one of the world's top guilds, alongside players who had absolutely jack-shit of an idea of what they were doing), Blizzard has had to make encounters progressively harder. It's a balancing act - make it too easy, and people scream on forums. Make it way too hard, and people scream on forums. Make it just hard enough that only some people can kill it... well, people still yell about it on forums. I guess that's a constant in any case.

[Deleted]

I'm sure Ragnaros heroic will be nerfed before this month ends. Maybe not by a huge amount but enough to make him killable for a much larger portion of the player-base.

Edit: For clarity, yes, heroic Ragnaros is a horribly overtuned fight and by far the hardest encounter ever in WoW.