It's official, Night Elves evolved from Dark Trolls (and MORE lore).

[Nefastus]

This is some bullshit lore trashing right up in here. The Vykrul were already affected with the curse of flesh. They were fleshy giant guys. The humans were the inferior offspring they cast off, but it was after the curse of flesh thingy changed them.

The giants are all on Azeroth! They were created on Azeroth. They were created to help shape Azeroth, in fact, by the Titans. There are no giants on Draenor. Draenor did not interact with Azeroth until the first war. So how the kitten kaboodle are the Gron suddenly decended from stone giants. What the fugazi. This makes no sense.

What is the reason that the Blizzard devs are playing lore mad libs? The lore was kind of spaghetti before this, what with Knaak arbitrarily inserting literary representations of his penis in to lore at all points to take the spot light and kick the actual heroes out, and lots of things bolted on because they add fun quests, but this is really taking it to the next level of arbitrary.


Also: How did trolls and tauren survive Azeroth being remade? Remember that Algalon guy that pointed out everyone would die if it were remade again?

Yeah they have been fucking the lore badly for a while, cata being the worst of all to it but the giants at draenor are indeed mentioned at warcraft II. I have the manual from back then and it states the temple of the damned were made from giant bones from draenor, althought it does not explain what kind of giants they were and by the look of their bones at war II they were like super sized humans not the giants we see in game most of the time. Probably they had their own giant race there.

[Sal the Shieldhog]

Elemental Drakes → Proto Drakes → Generic Drakes

Is that how its meant to work? Because if so the in-game models seem to work against this concept.

Slender bodied drake → Hulking gigantor drake → Slender bodied drake

Doesnt seem right <.<

Maybe they had a few problems in the process? Or maybe the Old Gods Curse of Fleshified their own drakes accidentally? But then, why would the Titans use imperfect creations?

Gah, this is so damn difficult sometimes (I guess that's what makes it kinda fun though). Only thing I'm absolutely sure of is that the Titans took a big-ass proto-drake, split him into 5, and made the Aspects.

Based on this: Titans -> Proto-drakes (Galakrond*) -> Dragonflights (Aspects).

But where do the elemental drakes fit into this?

* Sorry for the typo, Grakarond is the Bronze drake that the one Horus dude killed in the War of the Shifting Sands. Names are too close.*

[Zoma]

Wowpedia implies that elemental dragons are more elemental then dragon. It seems likely that they are true elementals, and the Titans copied their form for the creation of dragons. They started with Galakrond, who fathered the proto-drakes. The protos evolved into modern dragons. Before leaving Azeroth, the Titans used Galakrond to empower the leaders of the five main dragonflights (apparently there are other natural dragons, but are far rarer) in Aspects.


Rough family tree, the etc represents the more current lore of created dragonflights and others.

[frogger237]

Maybe they had a few problems in the process? Or maybe the Old Gods Curse of Fleshified their own drakes accidentally? But then, why would the Titans use imperfect creations?

Gah, this is so damn difficult sometimes (I guess that's what makes it kinda fun though). Only thing I'm absolutely sure of is that the Titans took a big-ass proto-drake, split him into 5, and made the Aspects.

Based on this: Titans -> Proto-drakes (Galakrond*) -> Dragonflights (Aspects).

But where do the elemental drakes fit into this?

* Sorry for the typo, Grakarond is the Bronze drake that the one Horus dude killed in the War of the Shifting Sands. Names are too close.*

I remember reading somewhere and just rechecked on wowpedia which says "Originally, there were many different dragonflights, with many different colors to be seen. The five most influential, however, were the reds, the greens, the bronze, the blacks, and the blues, and eventually most (if not all) of the other flights disappeared."

What they should do is just claim the elemental drakes are just the evolved "missing" flights then it would make more sense than suddenly tossing some new drakes behind the Proto-drakes.

[Sal the Shieldhog]

I've been researching a bit:

The proto-dragons were sort of the early version before dragons really evolved into the sapient, beautiful majestic creatures that they are known today.^[1] Proto-drakes are generally bestial and display none of the great intelligence and wisdom of true dragons.^[2]
Galakrond, a massive proto-dragon,^[3] was the "progenitor of dragonkind". From him, the Titans created the Aspects.^[4]

There are 5 different proto-dragons (natural; plagued don't count, as they were fucked with by the Lich King), one for each flight. I think the Violet one is just there for specially dedicated people, all evidence points to it not existing lore-wise.

Anyways:

Proto-dragons have a considerable likeness to the devilsaurs and pterrordax that inhabit Un'goro Crater, meaning that the dragons themselves could have evolved from the dinosaurs.

When proto-dragons were rediscovered as the mounts of the vrykul, it could easily be seen that they bore a striking resemblance to many kinds of carnivorous dinosaurs. This may be coincidence, or it could link dinosaurs to dragons in evolution.

This is where I got the idea of them being the forebears of dinosauria too. It makes sense though, offshoots.

For me, it seems obvious that the two are related. Now for elemental drakes (2 theories):

DISCLAIMER: THIS IS ALL JUST SPECULATION ON MY PART, PIECED TOGETHER FROM VARIOUS TIDBITS OF INFO.

What are the origins of stone and storm drakes?
Brann Bronzebeard recently uncovered evidence, corroborated by reports from adventurers in Deepholm, that proto-dragons and dragons may have origins in these—and other—elemental drakes. The inhabitants of Deepholm, the Skywall, the Firelands, and the Abyssal Maw are less than talkative on these matters, however, and most of them were not around when the elemental prisons were created.

Again, found this earlier. This throws a lot off. It makes in unclear about whether the Titans created dragons or not.

I'm not sure, but it seems that the Titans used the fire hawks as a basis for proto-dragons. this could explain how most proto-dragons breath fire (Fire being an essence of their very being; As the other dragonflights came into being, their "specialties" transformed their breath weapons). However, it's possible the proto-dragons were to bestial and hard for them to control so they took the other elemental drakes and "refined" their models :/ Theory 1 over.

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Another possibility is that the Titans simply created proto-dragons, and then the Aspects and dragonflights, to help them in the war against the Elemental Lords. When they sealed off the Lords and their forces, it's possible some drakes got cut off, and were corrupted by the energies of the plane they were in. This one makes a little more sense to me, but I guess it's all just a matter of opinion, seeing as we have nothing to go off of.

Thoughts?

[-Ethos-]

Brann Bronzebeard recently uncovered evidence, corroborated by reports from adventurers in Deepholm, that proto-dragons and dragons may have origins in these—and other—elemental drakes.

This one line just makes everything so much more confusing!
The "evolution" of the drakes works in pairs, but not with all 3.

What we know:
Titans → Galakrond (Proto-Dragon) → Aspects (Dragons) →[Through Breeding?]→ Dragonflight (Drakes)
mytabbuttondoesntwork!mytabbutto → Proto-Drakes →[Through Evolution]→ Dragonflight (Drakes)

Now for the bits that dont make sense for me <.<

Elemental Drakes → Proto Drakes
This could work as evolution, the Drakes shed their elemental bodies because of the Northrend Climate.

Proto Drakes → Dragonflight Drakes
As the earliest form of the species, the Proto-Drakes evolved into the smarter and slender flight drakes.

Elemental Drakes → Dragonflight Drakes
This seems to simply work for the sake of working.

Now as pairs they all work, if you try and fit the 3rd type of dragon into them it just becomes disjointed and chaotic.
Since we dont really know how intelligent the Elemental Drakes are, Blizzard will probably just say Elementals → Proto → Flight Drakes, though that doesnt explain why the titans would create Elementals and then also create Proto Drakes when Elementals would evolve into Proto Drakes somewhere down the line anyway.

Ugh!

[BirdLady68]

My mind is still boggled by the dragonspawn/dragonkin thing.

Makes it sound like the flights are alot more malicious than they seem and have some dark secrets. <.<

Blue went crazy, and we had to kill. Black went crazy, will have to kill. Rumor has it Bronze will be evil in another alternative timeline, right? So, we will either have to kill or redeem. That's 3 out of 5. If I was dragon aspect, I would be talking to my shrink unless I wanted to go crazy and destroy things and become a boss.

[Deleted]

Seriously. What does the tree start as then? Should I just play it safe and have Galakrond + Proto-Dragons? And have elemental drakes as a offshoot?

Elemental dragons (stone, storm, ???)
||
???
||
\/
Galakrond and proto-drakes

Just put a bunch of question-marks somewhere. Solves a bunch of trouble.

[Sal the Shieldhog]

Elemental dragons (stone, storm, ???)
||
???
||
\/
Galakrond and proto-drakes

Just put a bunch of question-marks somewhere. Solves a bunch of trouble.

...

Well, he's right, it does work /shrug

[Deleted]

Yet another retcon... it was always stated that the Silithid existed before the Aqir, who were created from the Silithid by C'thun.

Actually, before this magazine came out, it was commonly known that Aqir were the insectoid race. The ones altered by C'thun became the Qiraij. The ones that migrated North became the Nerubians. Silithid are just the work ants of the aqir race.

---------- Post added 2011-08-17 at 08:38 AM ----------

Interesting! There's the end of THAT argument. I love the few people who are disgusted by the "horde fanboyism" and are threatening to quit WoW over an alliance race having come from a horde race....isn't that rampant alliance fanboyism? I think those few people need to go outside and eat some pie. Like this guy:

You could argue that since Night Elves are an evolved race of Dark Trolls that they are in fact superior. Darwin wasn't a monkey fanboy, he was saying that humans are evolved apes, and thus are superior.

[JBNagis]

i dont see this stuff as retconn so much as "finding out real answers to our hypotheses". I love reading science journals and what not. New stuff is always found that makes the old stuff we thought we knew false and turns it on its head. Same principle here.

[esmifra]

On the whole elune/naruu subject. I'm certain the humans light, the earth-mother, and elune are all the same thing. Chances are Elune which is a naruu is on the scale of ad'al whom we have seen is far more powerful than alexstraza or cenarus . (the quest line to purify the crusader) . Since the old gods are originally from the "Great beyond" I assume they are in fact from dreanor, since both planets are relatively close( as seen in shadowmoon valley) Which would explain ogres and orcs being fleshy. Also MALE succubus are called incubus, just sayin.

I seriously doubt that Elune is a naruu, those who worship Elune (NElfs and Tauren) have power over life (Druids) in all its forms. Naruu are a source of holy light power not life.

In Tauren Mythology the earth mother has 2 eyes: the moon (Elune) and the Sun.

The moon (Elune) gives them Duidic Powers
The sun (Naruu??) gives them holy power

They need both to honour the mother earth.

SPOILERS:
In a book during a conversation between thrall and a dragon thrall was talking about mother earth in tauren mythology and the dragon replied "who said they are wrong" (maybe not these exact words).

My bet is Elune to be a Titan or some sort of sentient being created/partner by/with the Titans.
And that the earth (Azeroth) itself is also a sentient being.

[Deleted]

I'm sorry

But if this is to be believed, then the Titans used the elemental drakes as a basis, and came out with the proto-drakes. From there, it offshoots to the dinosaurs in Un'goro and the dragons.

I think Galakrond and the Aspects (barring Kalecgos; I dunno about him, he's a different scale) should be a separate offshoot of the protodrakes.

Like this:

Elemental drakes (stone/Air/fire hawks?) + titans -> proto-drakes
proto drakes -> Un'goro dinosaurs
proto drakes -> Dragonflights

I think that makes the most sense.

Galakrond -> Aspects

Maybe, maybe not :/

Dunno about that man, proto-dragons look like a devolved dragon as we know them. Elemental dragons appear with the same model as all the other evolved dragons. Evolved > devolved > evolved?

[Deleted]

I seriously doubt that Elune is a naruu, those who worship Elune (NElfs and Tauren) have power over life (Druids) in all its forms. Naruu are a source of holy light power not life.

Just a small correction, the Naaru are not the source of the Light but its 'avatars' so to say.

Dunno about that man, proto-dragons look like a devolved dragon as we know them. Elemental dragons appear with the same model as all the other evolved dragons. Evolved > devolved > evolved?

But while proto-dragons do show some signs of intelligence, I have yet to see it from the elemental dragons. :/

[Rommon64]

You could argue that since Night Elves are an evolved race of Dark Trolls that they are in fact superior. Darwin wasn't a monkey fanboy, he was saying that humans are evolved apes, and thus are superior.

But what's more superior, a species that keeps changing, or one that didn't have to change for thousands of years? As evolution only keeps what's successful (or at least, what's not detrimental), I'd wager the latter.

[Zoma]

Dunno about that man, proto-dragons look like a devolved dragon as we know them. Elemental dragons appear with the same model as all the other evolved dragons. Evolved > devolved > evolved?

It's possible that elemental dragons once looked similar to proto-drakes, such as the firehawk, which may be a fire elemental dragon. Over time, both the elemental dragons and proto-dragons changed form into the current drakes. The firehawk didn't evolve as a result of their 2 day lifespan.

[Deleted]

You could argue that since Night Elves are an evolved race of Dark Trolls that they are in fact superior. Darwin wasn't a monkey fanboy, he was saying that humans are evolved apes, and thus are superior.

That... that's not how evolution works...

Humans evolved from an ape-like ancestor who was also the ancestor of modern-day chimpanzees. We did not evolve from apes in the modern sense.

Also, Darwin did not claim human superiority. In fact, he provided the theory that all modern-day organisms are on the same 'level' of evolution because they had had the same amount of time to evolve.

Basically, we're not more evolved than a modern chimp or cockroach or bacterium.

[Deleted]

The thing about evolution does not fit with WoW. There might be a certain amount of evolution, but one species turning into another is usually the effect of some curse or corruption, not the evolutionary need to change.
The Elemental Drakes could have been affected by the Curse of Flesh, turning them into "sentient" beings and the blessing of the Titans for a few of them (the Aspects) turned them even further into sentient, intelligent and even more powerful creatures. That said, we must also take into consideration that some of the dragons from "Aspect-families" have not recieved a blessing and are nevertheless part of their dragonflight (one of Alex's companions was older than she herself and turned into a red dragon without a direct blessing from the Titans, I can't remember which one). Maybe that was some kind of evolution, which came from being close to the blessed dragons. Those that did not stay close to an Aspect stayed primordial Proto-Dragons.

[Zoma]

/sigh, Blizzard lore. They try giving us answers, and here we are with more questions. The 6th magazine better answer these dragon questions.

[Selkhet]

You could argue that since Night Elves are an evolved race of Dark Trolls that they are in fact superior. Darwin wasn't a monkey fanboy, he was saying that humans are evolved apes, and thus are superior.

This would show, as I said before, that trolls are living fossils. Like a shark, or turtle, or alligator, as someone else mentioned in this thread. These animals were already the way they are now when the dinosaurs walked the earth, though they did shrink a bit (they found fossils of turtles the size of a minivan).

Now, if NElves do descend from trolls, and trolls are mostly unchanged, we can be quite sure that what made trolls into NElves was an external force, probably what we know as Elune. Now, we don't know exactly what Elune is, all we know is that it's something quite powerful and, if NElf and Tauren legends are to be believed, it's also a benevolent entity. Speculation time! Huge text incoming!

One think we know about Elune is that she mated with Malorne and bore his child, Cenarius. This makes her old as dirt, and also points to the direction that Elune is some kind of natural force or spirit, as Malorne is. We also know that she is connected to the moon. As the somewhat kinky Tauren legend says, Malorne was running through the skies when his antlers got tangled into the stars, so he asked the moon for help. Which makes sense, as the moon also dwells in the night sky. She might be something akin to an Ancient, but she doesn't seem to be an animal spirit. Elune was never associated with one specific animal, and, actually, her animal symbol on Azeroth is a mishmash of random animal parts: the Moonkin, which has characteristics of bear, owl and stag/bull.

This lead me to believe that Elune is not herself an Ancient, but does have some relation to them. The story about the origin of the Worgen tells about Goldrinn, and how he became enraged when the full moon was up, because he knew that it was the eye of Elune, and that she was watching and judging him. This shows a relation of hyerarchy between Elune and the ancients. While Elune herself is an unseen, untangible force, she has these animalistic beings that she has as messengers, and her relation to them is sometimes of mother and child, like in the case of Goldrinn where she was scolding him for his bad behaviour, sometimes of a lover, in the case of Malorne. This case, by the way, for me always sounded like a playful game between them. Malorne was not in any real danger, he just didn't want the Tauren to catch him on their little game of tag because he was too proud. So Elune didn't have any real power to coerce him into sex. He was probably more than willing to have her, and this was a kind of foreplay. Imagine you find your lover tangled into some mess when you get home, half-naked and looking very sexy. He is kind of embarrassed and asks for help, and you naturally end up being turned on by the situation. It's perfectly plausible.

Anyway, the Ancient's naughtyness aside, let's put on the table what we know about Elune:

- She is associated with the moon.
- She is an intangible, but pervasive force.
- She has a relation with the Ancients, but doesn't see to be one of them.
- She is very probably the force which transformed an ancient tribe of trolls into the more powerful form we know today as the Night Elves.
- She and her Ancients have a connection with the nature itself and with the Emerald Dream, and this connection was passed to her chosen people. The Night Elves were the first druids.

I can think about another pervasive, unseen force which exists in the universe of Warcraft, has powerful subjects and messengers, is known to physically alter and enhance it's chosen people, has a specific kind of follower with unique powers and, more recently in lore, was associated with a celestial object.

This force is known as the Light.

The equivalent to the Night Elves, in this case, would be the Draenei. Their stories are quite similar, if you think about it. Like the ancient Trolls, the Eredar had a huge, powerful empire and were the masters of their planet. A powerful messenger or embodiment of the light, a Naaru, chose one Eredar, Velen, to rally a group of followers and separate themselves from the rest of their kind. These followers, known then as the Draenei, were empowered by the Light and, even if the change wasn't as dramatic as the Troll > Night Elf one, they were physically altered too. Like the Night Elves, touched by Elune, created a connection with nature and the Dream and became druids, the touch of the Light is responsible for the paladins. And, with the recent addition to the lore of Tauren paladins, or Sunwalkers, it was shown that the Light has some kind of association to the sun. The light is a pervasive but unseen force, which doesn't have a physical form but can be felt by the ones who wield it, and this connection empowers them, allows them to heal their allies and lends them the power to destroy their enemies. The Light is widely considered a benevolent force.

Another similarity between these two cases is that fel corruption can function as a supressor both for druidic and light powers. See the case of the Broken, who lost their connection to the light after being touched by the Orcish fel magic, and the case of Broll Bearmantle, who had his Idol of Remulos corrupted by a Pit Lord and thus lost his all shapeshifting powers, except for a distorted, uncontrollably enraged version of the bear form. This leads me to speculate that both of these powers come from forces that are similar in nature.

Another interesting thing is that his could explain the fact that the Orcs had stories about a powerful wolf spirit, which they called Lo'gosh, before they came to Azeroth and had contact with Goldrinn. It is proved already that the Light exists in more than one world, as the Draenei Vindicators and the Human Paladins were created without any contact between them. If the Light exists in many worlds and the Naaru are it's messengers, it is possible that Elune also exists in many worlds, having her animal spirits as they messengers wherever she goes. While is unknown if these Ancients have defined shapes, or just assume the shape of the animals they have around them, the similarities between Lo'gosh and Goldrinn are considerable. They're both described as ferocious, bloodthirsty spirits, associated with the thrill of the hunt and the battle. They might as well be the same spirits, serving as a subject to Elune as A'dal or O'ros serve as powerful subjects to the Light.

In conclusion, and I've already wrote way too much, Elune might be whatever the Light is. It makes sense. We don't know much about the Light, who or what created it, or if it always existed, and we know almost nothing about Elune as well. They may be even the very same thing, the very same light, only divided into the Sunlight and the Moonlight, or forces of the Day and Night. Whatever it is, thought, they both seem to be very powerful, mostly benevolent forces.

Feel free to expand my speculation. I'd love to hear your theories about it.