Dev Watercooler -- Threat Level Midnight

[Zivel]

People saying that this is for the low geared bad tanks in LFD have not thought about holding agro next teir againist a arc mage in ilvl 400+.... you just wont be able to do it.

[Strongold]

As a combat rogue I salute this change. I switch of blade-flurry off on most of my heroic.... This is a welcome change.

[ElAmigo]

Active mitigation is a greaaaaat idea and this is a step forward imo into separating the tanks from dps in style of play (honestly the only difference is that tanks are taking dmg once they have targets glued on to them). As to everyone crying that the DK style of tanking is broken well I don't know how hard it is for you guys to realize that it is eaaaaaasily fixed by making DS non avoidable or able to miss....I welcome this change and look forward to having to focus even more on mitigating and avoiding damage through encounters

[Sephiracle]

Says the guy who quit and therefore never stepped foot in Firelands.

That comment successfully nullified any point you may have had in your rambling post. Giving all tank specs a 3-5x threat boost does nothing for those that can manage their tools effectively and only hand holds the bad players. We all know what happened to DK's when the Icy Touch change went live and this is effectively the same thing for all of them.

I can see this change be beneficial if they make other tank classes have active mitigation, but there's been nothing but speculation on that front since the beginning of us discussing the problems that DK tanks have.

[Dyzon]

I don't know how hard it is for you guys to realize that it is eaaaaaasily fixed by making DS non avoidable or able to miss....

DS missing is NOT what is wrong with DK tanking. This statement just shows your ignorance to the issues inherent in the current DK blood model.

[akts]

Hurraaaaay! Yay for threat devaluation!

[Severusss]

People are QQing for no reason. I think there has been maybe one time on Domo where our tank has lost aggro to a dps and that's about it. Getting threat and keeping it in raids isn't challenging even before the change.

All this means is when I go into a heroic with fire lands gear and our tank has 233 blues maybe he will actually stand a chance of keeping aggro for more than 10 seconds.

[Dyzon]

Giving all tank specs a 3-5x threat boost does nothing for those that can manage their tools effectively and only hand holds the bad players.

Maybe, maybe not. To be honest the only time threat is an issue is in 5-mans (yes, even for good tanks), if you have threat issues in raids you probably shouldn't have a raid spot or your DPS need a talking to (first 5 seconds of the fight). The idea of managing tools effectively and giving a benefit to doing so is a bit of a separate conversation than from threat in the current model (save for maybe for DKs). Almost no tank good or bad currently has to worry about managing resources to generate threat or sacrifice resources to do so. Threat generating abilities can largely be ignored unless they serve some purpose in regards to mitigation (Runic Empowerment & Rune Strike for instance or Savage Defense). I don't see it hand holding bad players if it's not really an issue, now if they started giving a base 10% less damage taken for x seconds of inactivity, you might have an argument.

[ramennoodleking]

I actually quit WoW because of the Blood DK model, so I'm glad I'm not still playing when I read this. Maybe once the Druid/Paladin/Warriors see how frustrating it is to be utterly powerless to mitigate (all runes and cooldowns used..common thing for DKs) they will start QQing and DKs will get fixed.

Tell that to our blood dk who survived the last 10 seconds of H Rhyolith without a single other person alive and got us the kill.

[Damax]

This, They need to focus on the actual problems vs fiddling with crap that works fine. Stop dumbing down wow. I mean come on, do they think its a "coincidence" they lost 900k subs? =/

they lost 900k subs with (hard lol) cataclysm not during the wotlk easy mode.

I think people are overacting, they want to make tanks rotation more interesting than just be another dps rotation, the reason they are buffing threat back to wotlk is to focus on boss mecanics and to increase pugs success rate (undergeared tank scenario mostly) Also this give the chance to dps to always go all out and try to get bigger and bigger numbers (pretty damn sure dps loves big numbers)

the handful of ''elitist'' on here that think not having to care about threat (which no good tank never need to worry about) sucks are sadly not the millions of others who don't care about such a boring number to track.

[Dyzon]

Tell that to our blood dk who survived the last 10 seconds of H Rhyolith without a single other person alive and got us the kill.

While I don't deny that the other poster was a bit extreme - a single anecdotal event doesn't really do anything to help your point.

[melonhead]

they lost 900k subs with (hard lol) cataclysm not during the wotlk easy mode.

I think people are overacting, they want to make tanks rotation more interesting than just be another dps rotation, the reason they are buffing threat back to wotlk is to focus on boss mecanics and to increase pugs success rate (undergeared tank scenario mostly) Also this give the chance to dps to always go all out and try to get bigger and bigger numbers (pretty damn sure dps loves big numbers)

the handful of ''elitist'' on here that think not having to care about threat (which no good tank never need to worry about) sucks are sadly not the millions of others who don't care about such a boring number to track.

They aren't buffing anything "back" to wotlk. hand of salv/threat modifiers are ALREADY BAKED IN when you spec tank. This is buffing anything back, this is further reduction, further ez moding, of what used to be an interesting role, tanking. Now you just pick up a shield and auto attack.

As a 6 year veteran tank, I'm glad this change is coming out now, SW:TOR and and GW:2 are just around the corner, and I won't have to suffer through this long.

[Ginseng]

A needed change, should make tanking life alot easier.

Needed for who, bad players, sure.

[MasterDinadan]

Totally on board with some of the changes, although the immediate consequence of 500% threat will make me a very bored tank. Although, Safeguard is far more viable now that I don't have to worry about screwing a tank with sudden threat drop.Shield Block costing rage sounds like a bad idea though - It really won't make our rotation more interesting since spending rage is just giving up threat, and threat hardly matters now. I hope they think about it hard.I have a few ideas to make warrior tanking more interesting:Shield specialization no longer reduces the cooldown of Shield Block. (they are trying to shy away from 'must-have' talents, and the below change addresses this as well)The cooldown of Shield Block is reduced by 6 seconds whenever Shield Slam deals damage. (the rotation for sword and board is more interesting since it correlates to Shield Block uptime. Hit and Expertise are much less useless, Haste is slightly less useless)Impending Victory talent is removed. Improved Revenge now gives Revenge a chance to proc Impending Victory. (Allowing it over 20% health but trying it to an ability with a cooldown makes it reasonably balanced, especially when you consider trying to work it into your now relevant Sword and Board rotation. Also makes Devastate viable again).New talent - Healing Surge. 2 min cooldown Removes all HoTs on you but provides 50% of the healing instantly (a little more interesting. The loss of HoT in exchange for the instant health is an interesting cost to manage form both a tanking and healing perspective).The above would need to be tested and tuned, but it looks fun to me anyway

[masterprtzl]

People who raid normal modes obviously don't notice this because the DPS don't have a massive gear advantage over the tank and they don't pull as much DPS, so the threat they generate doesn't really over take the tank.

In heroic 10/25 man It's a nightmare for the tank and the DPS.... As a Feral Druid with only 1 ability (Cower - Reduces threat by 10% USES GBC AND COSTS 25 ENERGY!) I have to sit idle for 10 seconds before any pull since our tank can't reforge to hit/exp, he really needs the extra stats for all the bosses.

I lose DPS because I can't pop all my cooldowns right at the start and time it with a prepot, I have to use Cower which further gimps me, so for me, this is a godsend and I'm extremely happy Blizzard has done this!

This, a thousand times this. My feral pulls threat from ANY tank at the start of the fight. If magically the tank gets misdirects and salvs spammed on me, I can pull like 30k+ at the start, but normally I have to spam cower and waste my CDs sitting there doing nothing and it drops like 18k or some crap... Its so boring to not be able to dps to my fullest potential.

[keLston]

So instead of buffing DK tanks to make them function at end game raiding (and I mean at a high level, I don't mean your face roll casual 1/7 normal mode garbage), they decided it would be better to nerf the other 3 tanks to be awful? Makes sense. Just kidding.

Don't worry though, i'm sure someone will droolcup and point out a DK solo'd 1.5 year old content as evidence that DK tanks are fine.

[Damax]

They aren't buffing anything "back" to wotlk. hand of salv/threat modifiers are ALREADY BAKED IN when you spec tank. This is buffing anything back, this is further reduction, further ez moding, of what used to be an interesting role, tanking. Now you just pick up a shield and auto attack.

As a 6 year veteran tank, I'm glad this change is coming out now, SW:TOR and and GW:2 are just around the corner, and I won't have to suffer through this long.

wth. 6 year veteran tank and you want to go play gw:2 which has no tank... they are not reducing threat they are increasing tank's threat production. it is further easy mode for threat but if you pick up a shield and auto attack you will die because you will have to use your rotation to SURVIVE and mitigate damage

[melonhead]

wth. 6 year veteran tank and you want to go play gw:2 which has no tank... they are not reducing threat they are increasing tank's threat production. it is further easy mode for threat but if you pick up a shield and auto attack you will die because you will have to use your rotation to SURVIVE and mitigate damage

I didn't say anything was reducing threat. L2read.

I said it was "further reduction... ... of what used to be an interesting role."

Oh no, I can push holy shield every 30 seconds, and hit shield wall when DBM tells me. 2 interactions required past autoattack. WHEEEEE FUN!

Furthermore, GW:2 does have tanks, any role can tank, you swap your weapon set to fill different roles. So, talk about an engaging playstyle, my engineer (or whatever cool dps class i decide to roll) can both heal and tank if needed.

[Deleted]

Bringing perfectly fine classes down to the dk level isn't something cool... NO TY!

[Calamari]

Hi,

all aspects and arguments on and of the change are well thought out and valid. I agree especially on the part where tank rotations could (And should) be designed around pushing buttons that reduce damage taken, not just a dps rotation as is the case on a warrior and druid (paladin too to a lesser extent). DKs are the only tanks who are constantly busy watching their survival cooldowns and at times with sweat dripping from their forehead trying to ration resource breadcrumbs into surviving a few seconds longer yet at the sime time having dps inches away on their heels and forced into pushing dps as well, taking away the stressfulness of keeping threat will give valuable seconds to think about mitigation, the real thing.

And that's what tanking should be about, spending the moment thinking about the next boss attack and how best to counter it (pooling holy power for a word of glory or runes for a death strike to have ready and cast the second after Big Punch hits you for 150k for example. Something warriors could really use too btw, were a bit helpless on self healing outside of cooldowns, unlike paladins who can Word of Glory, Lay on hands, hell they can even Radiance to stay up a little longer. Warriors pray for lucky Blood Craze procs, survival from random procs now that is boring and unintuitive.

While on topic of paladin tanks, the control over ones own -and- the groups survival is also part of the reason prot paladins are so popular no doubt, beside the standard arsenal of -dmg cooldowns and self healing, they can lay on hands the healer, blessing of freedom the frostbolted rogue out of a voidzone (lets say his cloak is on cd), then go right ahead and hand of protection the mage who has a dog eating him, and to celebrate the occasion then pops Divine Guardian reducing his groups damage taken by 20% for 6s. Hell he can even use that 3 holy power Word of Glory on someone else than himself, almost like a DK transfering a death strike heal unto a friendly player.

A warrior can only silently contemplate and cry as his healer is dying in a fire spamming heals on everyone but himself, the frost bolted rogue not making it in time and dying in the voidzone, the mage being eaten alive by the dog (lets say its a dog of hell that eats ice blocks and is untankable). Rallying cry does not save the day, it only delays the inevitable in those (common) situations, the paladin has infinitely more power over his groups fate. (I didn't even mention Hand of Sacrifice or using Seal of Insight instead of a dps seal, or using the judgement mana to offheal during offtanking, the support options are near limitless and make me cry when tanking on my warrior).

DKs have similar power in that they can exceedingly well keep themselves alive, do a tiny bit of group healing with blood tap, combat ress anyone who dies, and army can be very powerful against adds. Druids can use a well timed Tranquility and bring the hole groups health back up during transition phases, innervate the healer, or combat ress someone. Warriors can only dream of helping their group in such ways..

Here are some suggestions how to give warrior tanks a small ammount of the group support that all other tanks have, without being overpowered:

-Shouts healing the protection warrior, for example 10% health when using a shout, through a late protection talent. And/or make shout reduce groups damage taken by 10% for 4s.

-Impeding Victroy change (most warrior tanks currently skip this talent, for a 2 point talent it's expensive, clunky, annoying and forces spamming a mediocre filler attack for mediocre self heals and reducing the prot warriors dps to terrible when used to full effect) - Instead it should have a chance to proc off all the warriors attacks against a target below 20%.

-A deep protection talent (maybe coupled into Impeding Victory) that makes Enraged Regeneration heal the whole group for 50% of the regeneration effect, scaling with the warriors own self healing talents, similar to a weaker version of tranquility but easier to use, or a paladin's Divine Guardian (2 min cooldown that reduces whole raids damage taken by 20% for 6s) or Radiance.

-Safeguard - Allows you to use charge/intercept on friendly targets once every 30s (without stunning or damaging them of course), this does not put charge/intercept on cooldown when used offensively, but you can only charge/intercept friendly players once every 30s (like intervene).

-Intervene - Instead of charging at a friendly player, when used on a friendly taget within 40 yard the next attack against them (single target or aoe) will deal 40% less damage, and prevent that attack from killing the target. The warrior shouts to a friendly player in his group: GET DOWN! Reducing the damage of the next attack against them by 40%, and makes them survive at 5% health if the attack would have otherwise killed them. 2min cd. Warrior can't cast it on himself. Near useless in PvP, since the smallest white offhand swing consumes the effect, but when well timed on a friendly raid tank or player standing in super nova's range, the warrior can save them, if only for a few critical seconds before healer fills them up.

Thanks for your time if you bothered to read it all, I love tanking on my warrior, but I have stopped tanking with her since I can do much more good for my group's and my own survival tanking on my paladin!
-Red