Dev Watercooler -- Threat Level Midnight

[Gunslinger]

First of all it's nearly unheard in raids for tanks to lose aggro over DPS with threat boosts(MDs) and a wide array of threat dump abilities. Sure it's great that threat is less of an issue now but this is mostly aimed at either tanks that are less geared than the damage dealers and clearly more in the LFD where being a fresh tank hurts. Going in a HC with a tank in more blues than you can name ém and being a heroic lvl geared dpsers or with others of the same level of gear that constantly pull threat and visit the graveyard is never fun. Sure u can slow down, take it easy, go afk but again that's even less fun. So in the end it doesn't affect the raiding community and it just offers a bit of help for (fresh) tanks in LFD. Sounds good.

[NatePsy]

This may increase the population of tanks, I welcome the change in hopes it gathers more tanks for quicker RDF times.

[ashblond]

First of all it's nearly unheard in raids for tanks to lose aggro over DPS with threat boosts(MDs) and a wide array of threat dump abilities. Sure it's great that threat is less of an issue now but this is mostly aimed at either tanks that are less geared than the damage dealers and clearly more in the LFD where being a fresh tank hurts. Going in a HC with a tank in more blues than you can name ém and being a heroic lvl geared dpsers or with others of the same level of gear that constantly pull threat and visit the graveyard is never fun. Sure u can slow down, take it easy, go afk but again that's even less fun. So in the end it doesn't affect the raiding community and it just offers a bit of help for (fresh) tanks in LFD. Sounds good.

If you read GC's post carefully, you will see the long-term goal is to shift tanks' focus from threat management to survival management.

This will actually affect raids more than random heroics, since Tanks' survivalbility is not really an issue in random heroics. And all tanks will need to work harder on their cooldowns and ressource management for survival, and have more controls over it, like today's DK tanking style.

Threat level change is just the 1st step towards this long-term goal.

[Deleted]

I read up to this post and just had to comment on some of the things attempted to be used to defend this change...

I think anyone who doesn't understand the role that threat has played is just being to elitist here or mainly raids with the luxury of misdirects. I just had this discussion with someone the other day, that the reason queue times are so high is because tanking right now is so hard. If you join a random dungeon in 359 gear and have a dps sitting there in 370+ gear ripping threat off you and calling you bad for not holding threat.

My bear tank has ~360ilvl, I'm often asked to tank runs for a decent guild on my server where people are ~375-380 geared because they know I can keep up, hold threat (~35k tps without luck of the draw) with my 353 ZG staff and not do dumbass shit (most of the time ). Threat ATM in NOT impossible with geared dps so long as you all know where you stand.

(anyone calling bs on the tps can go find out what a full agil geared druid tank can push when actually using more than 1 button/min, also have a less geared dk that I went with up until 4.2 before the druid so it isn't a question of "dps rotation as a tank")

Aside from the abuse you have to worry about pulling the mobs gathering them up and you have 3 dps single targeting 3 different targets that your expected to hold threat on but there are also mechanics you have to deal with. As a warrior you charge only to have the arcane mage pop all cooldowns except mirror images (because it still has a minute left on the cooldown from two pulls ago) and now you play the taunt game as the mage rolls 60k dps and your only capable of maybe 40k tps but now your nerfed even more on threat generation as the mob runs away from you and is out of range of anything but your taunt. I can't tell you how many dungeons I join as a tank already at the last boss because the previous tank just gave up on the group.

Then that's a tard dps problem, it's as much the dps' responsibility to watch their threat and introducing this change will cause even less hunters/rogues to know wtf their misdirect ability is compared to now.


I just feel this is so braindead dps can go "MOAR NUMBARS NOWS!!" with even more of both tanks and dps not having a fucking clue wtf most of their abilities do.


Managing my survival was never an issue with the DK, swapped because DK AoE threat is just plain bursty and uninvolved (30sec cd on the only actually useful ability).

[ReaverGX]

Tanking never really was hard to begin with. I remember a little hic up when the cata patch hit and TC was (is) a wet noodle that I had to adjust usage (love blood and thunder). +40k shield slam crits w/ T12 2p is going to be so OP for threat.

[Prag]

I can't wrap my head around the complaints...
1. The game/tanking is easy. This makes it faceroll.
A. Actually, content dictates difficulty. If you saw threat management as a challenge you had to "overcome", you're not the quality player you want us all to think you are.

2. Devs are wasting their time on changes that affect of the population instead of , where changes are really needed.
A. How did you get such inside information in an industry where techniques behind the design are generally kept under wraps? Oh, you don't know, you're just speculating? Cool.

3. Fanboi
A. Idiot-paying-for-a-product-he-doesn't-like-boi.

Overall, this change helps the intended audience and does nothing to those outside of it. Hell, maybe they'll even be able to squeak a little more survival out of the change, even if it's just an extra GCD or two.

There's no reason to complain about this. Threat is a minimal factor in ideal situations, and a strong point of frustration in others. Evening it out without impacting either side negatively is what you SHOULD be asking for in design changes.

---------- Post added 2011-08-17 at 01:16 AM ----------

I read up to this post and just had to comment on some of the things attempted to be used to defend this change...



My bear tank has ~360ilvl, I'm often asked to tank runs for a decent guild on my server where people are ~375-380 geared because they know I can keep up, hold threat (~35k tps without luck of the draw) with my 353 ZG staff and not do dumbass shit (most of the time ). Threat ATM in NOT impossible with geared dps so long as you all know where you stand.

(anyone calling bs on the tps can go find out what a full agil geared druid tank can push when actually using more than 1 button/min, also have a less geared dk that I went with up until 4.2 before the druid so it isn't a question of "dps rotation as a tank")



Then that's a tard dps problem, it's as much the dps' responsibility to watch their threat and introducing this change will cause even less hunters/rogues to know wtf their misdirect ability is compared to now.


I just feel this is so braindead dps can go "MOAR NUMBARS NOWS!!" with even more of both tanks and dps not having a fucking clue wtf most of their abilities do.


Managing my survival was never an issue with the DK, swapped because DK AoE threat is just plain bursty and uninvolved (30sec cd on the only actually useful ability).

In no part of your long, drawn out "HEY LOOK AT ME I KNOW HOW TO PLAY" argument did you pose a single point against the change. The reason is because it won't affect you. So shhhhh.

[Darkley]

You are contradicting yourself:





Prot paladins and warriors have too much passive mitigation, that is why damage mitigation on them is easy, our active mitigation is pretty much limited to using -dmg cooldowns on hard hitting abilities.

As Jayremy pointed out, the next step after the threat buff is to shift away from automated passive defenses of shield tanks and bears (passive shield block/absorb + avoidance), and into a DK like playstyle where in addition to managing the -%dmg cooldowns, you must also learn to synchronise your active defenses (self heals/absorb shields in case of DKs) with the bosses attacks - instead of running a dps rotation routine 24/7.

I fail to see how i am contradicting myself, tanking firelands is EASY as hell, managing threat + mitigation via CD is no big issue, im stating the facts, if you cant handle threat + mitigation, stop tanking, you just dont have what it takes, done make threat easier so nobrainers can keep threat while tryine to figure out wheter to hit 1 2 3 or 4.

[jayremy]

I fail to see how i am contradicting myself, tanking firelands is EASY as hell, managing threat + mitigation via CD is no big issue, im stating the facts, if you cant handle threat + mitigation, stop tanking, you just dont have what it takes, done make threat easier so nobrainers can keep threat while tryine to figure out wheter to hit 1 2 3 or 4.

Because if it is so easy to you then what is this challenge you speak of?

Also why are you trying to impose a barrier for entry on other tanks if this wont affect you because since it is easy already, it must not be challenging to you, so neither way change or not wont affect you, only others. Why are you for blocking others from benefiting?


Also this state is likely to be temporary, tanking will never be an "AFK" role with these changes, or maybe not even "easy".

In fact tanking can be a lot like DPS, something you can perfect and maximize. What does all that extra threat do for you exactly? Nothing.

What does milking every inch of extra mitigation based on smart use of skills (timing and rotation) do for you? It saves the healing needed for you, your survival (even w/o heals) and allows you to impact your entire raid by allow healing to spare more heals on themselves and DPS players.

Regardless if it is easy or hard, there is a more meaningful way to progress your skills as a tank on the long term of things.

Besides my point here, I think to need to read the whole blue post of their intentions, and you will see they already stated against what you are arguing, making it nearly pointless to argue, unless you are flat out going "Blizzard is lying" if you can't trust Blizzard here why would you trust them other times? Or even play the game if its the same devs making it that keep you here.

[Calamari]

I fail to see how i am contradicting myself, tanking firelands is EASY as hell, managing threat + mitigation via CD is no big issue, im stating the facts, if you cant handle threat + mitigation, stop tanking, you just dont have what it takes, done make threat easier so nobrainers can keep threat while tryine to figure out wheter to hit 1 2 3 or 4.

What is now being taken away in tps buttons needed to push, is later made up for with mitigation buttons to push. This is good, because tps behaves always the same, you land attack, you make threat, mob stays on you. There is little variance to be had to the TPS game either you keep agro or you don't and as you said with firelands vengeance it's a challenge not to keep threat on most fights.

We've established that currently keeping threat is p1ss easy, it's also been repeatedly said in the blue post and in this thread that this is why they are moving away from trying to make threat a challenge, and instead make staying alive a challenge. This is good.

[Demoncrash]

I welcome this change. Its a p.i.t.a. in LFD groups when i pull 2-3 mobs in ZG/ZA and have my DPS pick one mob each and focus fire from the outset.

[rockdontroll]

the blue post talks about green geared tanks in a random hc.. which is irrelevant.. lets talk endgame.The old system of threat was tank gear-limited in terms of a dps pulling aggro away, as a geared tank can hold aggro better in FL.However the old tier raids of BWD etc, the bosses hit for less, meaning less vengeance, meaning less threat, making that FL-geared dps rip aggro easily. The solution? Make tanks choose hit/exp? How about keep the old system, and add an avoidance-based element on top, where avoiding an attack generates significant threat, to the level where dps cannot out-threat after a few dodge/parry. Sure you dont want tanks afk and do 0 dps, but what actual sense if you think about it, is in a tank hitting? Isnt a tank about taking being hit? hit/exp should be a dps and pvp stat!


and about pvp (rated bgs), I guess it might actually be a buff? someone work it out, but I would think hitting a CC'd target (fear/rep etc) as tank spec will now reward instant Vengeance (read: dps boost), then when the target breaks CC and hit you, you will gain even more. This is as opposed to currently starting with no vengeance on a CC target until they break out.

[Calamari]

Making tanks more engaged with their survival can be very interesting. But on the other hand, what worries me is the class homogenization.

If they change the pally/warrior/druid tanking model to dk's active CD management model, blizzard has to redesign a lot of abilities to match dk's similar abilities, for balance issue, and inevitably results class homogenization.

I still prefer each class has their uniqueness and different tanking style. But balance and homogenization is really a dilema.

It's not just the class homogenization that worries me in this new design philosophy they're working towards. A skill cap for tanks is fine.. but if you start designing boss encounters to require the tank to use a large arsenal of different mitigation cds, then the average unexperienced tank might be overwhelmed by the task of managing his survival by himself. DK tanking does require a fair ammount of practice.. otherwise they can be very squishy.

[Scratches]

Update(?): Seems the hotfix has just been deployed. Go now; tank, faceroll, and be merry! ¬_¬ (and whine in trade, for some of you..?)

[Pavidus]

This is outstanding news. Threat generation has never been a proper representation of skill, but merely a pointless gear issue.Putting more weight of surviving in the hands of the player is definitely the right move. Death Knights, for me, have been the most enjoyable tanking class by far because of this. Watching your health bar to decide when to DS for the best benefit is far more engaging than Savage Defense, and really enjoyable.

[Wiyld]

Why do you guys cry so much! Waaaaaaaaaaaa! If you don't like the way blizz is handling the game quit.

If we all left, then who would be here to carry you?

[SilverKnight]

The only time threat actually mattered was when playing with idiot players (so pretty much every DPS in LFD) or if you were severely outgeared. I've also heard it was problematic in progression fights, too. So, as a person who does tank, doesn't raid, and uses LFD pretty much exclusively, this will do very little for me. If you blow all your CDs before I get a Swipe off, you should die. (And, in fact, you're STILL going to die, even after this change, because I'm going to stand there and auto-attack while they swarm your dumbass, then I'll go back to tanking for the rest of the non-retards.) If you play like an idiot, you should be punished for it. STOP REWARDING BAD GAMEPLAY.

Also, don't many DK tanks actively dislike having to use DS at the exclusion if nearly everything else? Having active mitigation is fine and dandy, but when it becomes a, "USE X ABILITY OR GET GIBBED" situation, is that really adding more thought to the process, or just making tanking that much more punishing in a more overt way? I hope Blizzard realizes that for every player they win back to the LFD (the ONLY they're doing this, mark my words) with this change, they're going to lose that many and more when they have this whole "DK-like revamp" of the other tank classes go live. Why? Because DK TANKING SUCKS. And this is coming from somebody who enjoys DK tanking's versatile and 'mobile' nature.

[Melodi]

Oh look someone's mad.

Threat has gone from bad to worse, but Blizzard is still digging yo.
It was good in TBC.



Orly? Heroic raids tanks having threat problem? It's more like the average zandalari bads that need that change.

Threat was hardly doing well in BC. Remember, everyone HAD to have Salvation on them from a pally or else tanks would lose threat and people would die. I wouldn't call that exactly "good." I remember healing back then and being the only resto druid, so I'd get the crappy 5 minute Salv buff from our pallies. If I didn't get it back on me in the middle of the fight when it wore off (I had to make a macro to spam it to get it on me) in fights with adds (sometimes with only single target as well) I'd pull aggro and die. This was with well geared and skilled tanks throughout BC from Magtheridon to Sunwell. It was even worse for dps.

This change is minimal for those who are already doing their job minus some situations, and majorly helpful to undergeared/skilled tanks.

[Thallidomaniac]

Threat was hardly doing well in BC. Remember, everyone HAD to have Salvation on them from a pally or else tanks would lose threat and people would die. I wouldn't call that exactly "good." I remember healing back then and being the only resto druid, so I'd get the crappy 5 minute Salv buff from our pallies. If I didn't get it back on me in the middle of the fight when it wore off (I had to make a macro to spam it to get it on me) in fights with adds (sometimes with only single target as well) I'd pull aggro and die. This was with well geared and skilled tanks throughout BC from Magtheridon to Sunwell. It was even worse for dps.

This change is minimal for those who are already doing their job minus some situations, and majorly helpful to undergeared/skilled tanks.

Not to mention most BC bosses weren't tauntable.

[Azrile]

Wow. I can only imagine how much people will be mad about this. I think it's a good-ish idea though...

They are fixing something that isn´t broke. Ok, so now we rotate among active damage abilities.... they are going to increase tank threat, which means we will mostly just be spamming AOE abilities now.... and then they will spend a lot of time ´fixing´our active survivability abilities (shield block etc).. and in the end, we will still be just pushing a few buttons while worrying about positioning and not standing in crap... it will feel exactly the same.

My whole ´hate´of this is that it is big waste of time, where the developers are walking themselves in circles changing something that isn´t broken, and won´t be any better after the change. It will NOT make the game any more fun for most players. The devs need to learn that this is a game, not a science project.. they need to start adding fun back.

There are SO MANY areas of the game that need to have some fun added to them.. yet the devs are wasting time doing all this senseless crap.

[webdonkey]

stop fixing shit that aint broken... swtor... hurry plz... every day i play wow a kitten dies... then blizzard " fixes " someting, and another 10 die! retarded !