Shadow Question

[spaztom]

Just started playing shadow again and have read the PvE guide in the sticky section (very well done) and all the replies and other shadow-related questions on these boards. Unfortunately, I've now confused the crap out of myself after reading so much and playing last night. So...once and for all (and ignoring all mana replenishment type spells):

I start my casting sequence: VT, DP, SW:P, Mindblast, MindFlay....I get an orb that lasts 60 seconds.

Once Mindblast is off cool-down, I immediately cast it to get ES.

I now have ES and cast everything per above...let's say I refresh VT and DP. My mindblast is still on cool-down and with nothing else to refresh, I cast mindflay...boom....I get an orb.

I have 7 seconds left on my ES. Here's my confusion:

With 7 seconds left, do I cast Mindblast to start the ES countdown over again or wait til ES is about to fall off and then cast Mindblast.

If I wait for it to fall off, there's a chance my mindflay will give me 2 or 3 orbs and then I get a bigger Mindblast while keeping ES up (hopefully).

If I cast immediately, I get a little bigger mindblast but a new cooldown for the rest of my spells.

Ack...I'm confusing myself again....please help!!

[Kelesti]

You cast Mind Blast. Even if you have 4 seconds on ES and 0 orbs, you cast Mind Blast. If your DoTs are going to run out before you can reapply ES, refresh them early, but generally speaking, you don't want to wait on Mind Blast ever.

This was covered in the sticky.

[Gellania]

It's always a DPS loss when you hold on to Mind Blast.

[Beav]

I start my casting sequence: VT, DP, SW:P, Mindblast, MindFlay....I get an orb that lasts 60 seconds.

Your casting your initial Mind Blast too early.

Get your DoTs up then Mind Flay to proc an orb, THEN cast Mind Blast to proc ES then recast your VT and DP for the increased damage.

[spaztom]

Thanks for the replies. I do remember reading not to let it drop but in practice it seemed...off. My main is a lock and we almost never cast early unless a DoT is falling off. Guess I'll have to get used to it. Thanks for the replies.

And yes, looking at my rotation...plain as day I'm missing out on some ES by casting blast first.....der.

Thanks again.

[Deleted]

Depending on my buffs and dots remaining time, I'd wait for an orb to cast MB.

Anyway, since I very often get an orb before ES expires so it's quite unusual that I have to wait for an orb, I prefer waiting for an Orb to cast MB if ES is about to expire rather than recasting dots every time I renew ES, which should happen every 6 or 12 seconds more or less.

So if your dots and your ES are about to expire (5-6 secs left) and you don't have an orb yet, I'd wait for the orb And remember that your dots castings should end before your dots expire to get the extra tick...

And if you're figthing in a multitarget combat with high multidotting and AOEing like Beth'tilac, just get sure your ES is always up and forget about casting MB as soon as you can if you don't have an orb. Btw, the more SW:P you multidot, the more orbs you'll get.

[Arlee]

There are also those wonderful wonderful times when you are in the middle of casting a MB and proc an orb.

[Greendog]

Maybe it's just me but I always cast SW: P at the start as this and MF are what the orbs proc from. So it seems appropriate to cast it 1st.

If im static before a pull I will cast VT 1st swiftly followed by SW: P. MB pretty much goes out on CD along with my fiend.

[Raynet]

I completely disagree with the casting of MB always when it's off CD. I have tested this numerous times and I cannot see a DPS increase at all. I highly suggest holding on to MB until you gain 1 orb as this ensures you keep ES up as much as possible. I have found when casting MB just off CD without an orb I go into a lot more droughts where I don't have ES up which hurts dot damage quite a bit during that period of time. Now when you get 4 piece T12 I would assume that you'd want to be casting MB off CD even if you don't have an orb, but until then I suggest against it.

My opening rotation is generally VT > SWP > DP > MF (to 1 orb) > MB > VT > DP > continue with priority system
You also want to ensure that you are using Shadowfiend when your int procs are up at the start and Archangel as soon as you get the dots and whatnot up.

[Arlee]

Testing in game in a raid environment is rather difficult because there are sooo many variables that can have an effect on your overall dps. Not to mention if you have high haste you will be proc'ing orbs more often and will be even closer to casting on CD as is anyways. Also, I don't think I have ever talked to someone (aside from kilee) who when claiming to have tested in game has 1) done enough tests to be statistically significant or 2) Kept records of what actually happened instead of going with what seemed to be happening.

If you do have these things though Raynet would you mind providing the information? Any testing that gets results contrary to the results everyone else has gotten would be interesting to me.

[Raynet]

I actually test this every so often on target dummies at least and I have yet to prove to myself that casting MB on cooldown without any orbs is a DPS increase. I ensure all my tests go on for around 5 mil damage to get rid of lucky critting and such. I do often have an orb so I can cast MB on cooldown but I have had some long orb droughts in raids. This is more rare though so in my tests casting MB on CD nets around the same damage as saving it for 1 orb does so it's hardly anything to be concerned about. I would basically play the way you want, I am more comfortable waiting so I do just that. With the Tier 12 this will change I am sure but I still haven't got that 4th piece. :P