Haste vs mastery arcane

[darthpickle]

I just want to clear things up between haste and mastery.
Wat ive read on icy veins it says to stack haste till the soft cap.
But ive seen top mages stack mastery instead but other mages also stack haste over mastery.
And if haste is the key and i dont have enough haste for the soft cap do i still stack haste or mastery.
Ty

Oh and i have my 4 pc t12 set

[Redknot]

I play rogue as my main, but my mage is my main alt. So naturally I also look up theorycrafting for mage as well. The mages in my main raid, who rank on almost every 25m fight, are stacking haste until soft cap. The object to reach is 1 sec Arcane Blast during Hero/Warp/Lust. There is a formula you can use for your current gear to find that soft haste cap.
The mages I've seen that AREN'T gemming/reforging to haste soft cap, are mages that have Shard of Woe (trink of Sinestra). The mages that ARE reforging/gemming for haste cap are mages who do not have that trink. But I'm unsure if this is the real reason. With that haste every 2 min it might not even matter, so mastery outweighs it. So the mages that are stacking mastery, look to see if they have that trink. All I can tell ya. I will be following this thread as well for some nice tips from experienced mages.

[Evil Inside]

Stack haste til softcap and all mastery afterwards. If you havent hit the haste softcap yet then keep stacking haste til you cap.

[Warcrafter]

I play rogue as my main, but my mage is my main alt. So naturally I also look up theorycrafting for mage as well. The mages in my main raid, who rank on almost every 25m fight, are stacking haste until soft cap. The object to reach is 1 sec Arcane Blast during Hero/Warp/Lust. There is a formula you can use for your current gear to find that soft haste cap.
The mages I've seen that AREN'T gemming/reforging to haste soft cap, are mages that have Shard of Woe (trink of Sinestra). The mages that ARE reforging/gemming for haste cap are mages who do not have that trink. But I'm unsure if this is the real reason. With that haste every 2 min it might not even matter, so mastery outweighs it. So the mages that are stacking mastery, look to see if they have that trink. All I can tell ya. I will be following this thread as well for some nice tips from experienced mages.

Sinestra Trinket has a 1m CD not 2m

[darthpickle]

Alright thanks for the tips

Also ive seen some mages still stack haste to soft cap with their SoW

[Youvegotfail]

There is a formula you can use for your current gear to find that soft haste cap.

what is this formula? i was not aware until now that there was a haste soft cap to be shooting for as arcane. My alt is a mage as well and I've just been trying to maximize mastery and haste, but prioritizing mastery.

thanks in advance

[Eschatonin]

Simulate your character with haste softcap, and then with 1200-1300 haste. Choose the one with higher dps.

[darthpickle]

The soft haste cap is 1767 according to icy veins

[ungar]

I just want to clear things up between haste and mastery.
Wat ive read on icy veins it says to stack haste till the soft cap.
But ive seen top mages stack mastery instead but other mages also stack haste over mastery.
And if haste is the key and i dont have enough haste for the soft cap do i still stack haste or mastery.
Ty

Oh and i have my 4 pc t12 set

Its my experience that reforging for haste can do better than mastery, but that with haste you need to keep spamming blast and hope for crit to replenish your mana. if successful mana replenishment you'll get more dps than mastery, if not, you'll be mana starved and not benefit from the mastery you do have. this will equate to less dps than stacking mastery.

also, mastery mages stay above 90% or 95% mana to get the most benefit from mastery.

The mages I've seen that AREN'T gemming/reforging to haste soft cap, are mages that have Shard of Woe (trink of Sinestra). The mages that ARE reforging/gemming for haste cap are mages who do not have that trink. But I'm unsure if this is the real reason. With that haste every 2 min it might not even matter, so mastery outweighs it.

with all respect, I don't think gemming haste is a good idea since you can gem intel which gives more max mana, damage, and crit.

[Sflame]

It's all about personal preference. I don't have Shard of Woe but I choose to stack Mastery over Haste just because ive had better results with more Mastery over more Haste even without the old Tier 4-piece bonus.

[MagicSN]

It's all about personal preference. I don't have Shard of Woe but I choose to stack Mastery over Haste just because ive had better results with more Mastery over more Haste even without the old Tier 4-piece bonus.

Same here. Actually also in my raid some mages were noticably below my damage when they were still stacking haste, after a reforge to 1300 Haste Rest Mastery their damage improved (none of us has SoW).

Recently one of the mages added the theory though that it depends on Heroism a bit. In case of a badly timed heroism he had better results with haste-stacking he claimed, while with a heroism which was perfectly aligned with mana+cooldowns for a burn phase he had better results with 1300 Haste rest mastery he claimed.

[LaplaceNoMa]

Why is the 'soft-cap' exactly 1768? Because with 1768 haste, you can have 15 AP'd ABs during bloodlust.

But wait... can you? Can you really have 15 ABs during the 15-second AP if you have ping that is more than 0 ms? No, you can't, lol. That's why this soft-cap hysteria only works in sims. And that's the reason why the best results are shown around 1300-1400 haste. If you go lower, you'll have 13 ABs instead of 14.

[Wilderness]

Why is the 'soft-cap' exactly 1768? Because with 1768 haste, you can have 15 AP'd ABs during bloodlust.

But wait... can you? Can you really have 15 ABs during the 15-second AP if you have ping that is more than 0 ms? No, you can't, lol. That's why this soft-cap hysteria only works in sims. And that's the reason why the best results are shown around 1300-1400 haste. If you go lower, you'll have 13 ABs instead of 14.

If you have a decent ms, then yes you can. That's why they put spell queuing into the game.

I've simmed myself at the haste cap, stacking fully mastery, and fully haste. Even though my stat weights at the haste cap and full haste put mastery higher the full haste sim beat out all the other ones by 600 dps (ran it yesterday on the lastest SimC).

Even if going all mastery was best for patchwerk though I'd be haste for H Rag with all the movement faster casts helps a lot.

[datrupimp]

i got better results with mastery over haste

[darthpickle]

bumppppppp

[Swizzle]

Why is the 'soft-cap' exactly 1768? Because with 1768 haste, you can have 15 AP'd ABs during bloodlust.

But wait... can you? Can you really have 15 ABs during the 15-second AP if you have ping that is more than 0 ms? No, you can't, lol. That's why this soft-cap hysteria only works in sims. And that's the reason why the best results are shown around 1300-1400 haste. If you go lower, you'll have 13 ABs instead of 14.

Ummm, you'd need to have pretty damn high MS to NOT be able to get that in. Unless my knowledge of the metric system has been shit on by this Dayquil, the prefix milli denotes 1,000. So you would need 1,000 MS to be 1 second behind everything. Anything below 500 MS means you're under half a second of delay, and 500 is still pretty high. Also, they did put spell queueing in to minimize latency issues. The soft-cap is just there so you don't go under 1 second on AB during Bloodlust.

[Deleted]

If you're curious about how the soft haste cap value is calculated here it goes:

AB0 (0stacks) cast time = 2.0 seconds
AB4 (4stacks) cast time = 1.6 seconds

1.6 / 1.3 (heroism) / 1.05 (5% haste from totem/aura) / 1.03 (3% haste from mage talents) = 1.138 seconds (cast time of AB4)

There's a formula to find out the amount of haste you need to go from a A cast time to a B cast time:
X = ( ( CurrentCastTime / DesirableCastTime ) - 1 ) * 100
X = ( ( 1.138 / 1 ) - 1 ) * 100
X = 13.8% haste

1% haste = 128.125 haste rating
13.8% haste = 1768.125 haste rating

[Makoblade]

Mastery is better than haste in firelands gear. Perhaps not by a massive amount, but it is better. Soft-cap nonsense is for misinformed players who need set in stone rules to strive for because they don't understand stat weights.

With a haste-focused reforge, the mage is afforded less of a dps loss if/when he or she wastefully spams ab and drops their mana lower outside of burn phase. With higher mastery, the loss is more signficant to do such, and with the added misinformation that "mini burns" are useful, players who participate in the activity will probably make claims that haste is better (in a sense it is since they are playing incorrectly).

[Swizzle]

Mastery is better than haste in firelands gear. Perhaps not by a massive amount, but it is better. Soft-cap nonsense is for misinformed players who need set in stone rules to strive for because they don't understand stat weights.

With a haste-focused reforge, the mage is afforded less of a dps loss if/when he or she wastefully spams ab and drops their mana lower outside of burn phase. With higher mastery, the loss is more signficant to do such, and with the added misinformation that "mini burns" are useful, players who participate in the activity will probably make claims that haste is better (in a sense it is since they are playing incorrectly).

Uhhh, man, you probably wouldn't want to pick up any Firelands gear then seeing as how being reforged for the Hit cap and all excess Haste reforged away...you're still at the soft-cap.

[Deleted]

going for around 1200 haste works fine with me atm