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  1. #21
    In 4pc Tier11, get haste as low as possible and mastery as high as possible, while saying hit capped.
    In 4pc Tier12, get as close to 1767 haste as possible without going over, then get mastery. Hit cap first of course.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by darthpickle View Post
    I just want to clear things up between haste and mastery.
    Wat ive read on icy veins it says to stack haste till the soft cap.
    But ive seen top mages stack mastery instead but other mages also stack haste over mastery.
    And if haste is the key and i dont have enough haste for the soft cap do i still stack haste or mastery.
    Ty

    Oh and i have my 4 pc t12 set
    There is no solid answer of mastery or haste. You need to sim it out and see where your gear stands. Every time I ran simulationcraft on my mage mastery outweighed it by a huge margin. Tested it out ingame and when I was at Haste "soft-cap" my dps was lower than if I had stacked mastery.

  3. #23
    Bloodsail Admiral Saegno's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LogozRR View Post
    In 4pc Tier11, get haste as low as possible and mastery as high as possible, while saying hit capped.
    In 4pc Tier12, get as close to 1767 haste as possible without going over, then get mastery. Hit cap first of course.
    Wrong.
    The whole point of the haste soft cap is to have your 4x ABs to be at 1 sec cast time under hero/lust. The trouble is that after 1200-1300 haste you will notice very, very little changes in cast time. I am at 1278 haste and my 4x ABs under lust are 1.0 seconds. Now it might actually be 1.05 or something, but going for more haste over 1300 to shave off that .05 seconds of cast time instead of going for mastery is pointless and a DPS loss.
    Last edited by Saegno; 2011-09-16 at 08:08 AM.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lohe View Post
    If you're semi-hardcore or semi-casual what's the other half? To me, they're both the same thing.
    Canicus - 577 - Arcane Mage - US Mal'Ganis Horde - 12/14H T16

  4. #24

  5. #25
    The philosophy behind capping haste at ~1300 is one of latency. Theoretically, in blust with full raid buffs, AP lasts 15 seconds and one should get 15 ABx4 during AP. Sadly, due to latency (even at 30ms that lucky people get to enjoy) you will only get 14. So, the reason why people stop haste at ~1300 is to make those 14 ABx4 better.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Swizzle View Post
    Uhhh, man, you probably wouldn't want to pick up any Firelands gear then seeing as how being reforged for the Hit cap and all excess Haste reforged away...you're still at the soft-cap.
    I'm not sure why you would say that, since you're 100% wrong. If you are going out of your way to obtain enough haste to soft cap then you're playing incorrectly is all.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Makoblade View Post
    Mastery is better than haste in firelands gear. Perhaps not by a massive amount, but it is better. Soft-cap nonsense is for misinformed players who need set in stone rules to strive for because they don't understand stat weights.

    With a haste-focused reforge, the mage is afforded less of a dps loss if/when he or she wastefully spams ab and drops their mana lower outside of burn phase. With higher mastery, the loss is more signficant to do such, and with the added misinformation that "mini burns" are useful, players who participate in the activity will probably make claims that haste is better (in a sense it is since they are playing incorrectly).
    pretty much this

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Stache View Post
    Team mastery
    Team mastery wins!

  9. #29
    All 3 Sims I've ever run since switching to 4pt12 (Simulationcraft, Rawr, one I wrote myself) have all consistently agreed that my relative stat values are usually about:

    Mastery: 1.71
    Haste (Below cap): 1.68
    Crit: 1.4

    (I'm a troll mage without Shard of Woe)

    The truth of the matter is that haste (below cap) = mastery, they are so close. But when given a choice take the mastery.

    Right now haste = mastery = hit. As long as gear doesn't have crit or spirit on it (and it has intellect), it is properly itemized.

    Just avoid crit and you are fine.

  10. #30
    Bloodsail Admiral Saegno's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Makoblade View Post
    I'm not sure why you would say that, since you're 100% wrong. If you are going out of your way to obtain enough haste to soft cap then you're playing incorrectly is all.
    Swizzle is right.
    In a BiS/Close to BiS setup, even without the legendary, just the 391 staff, you can hit softcap without trying and having all haste reforged to mastery/hit.

    ---------- Post added 2011-09-16 at 03:11 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Grondath View Post
    Team mastery wins!
    Kind of curious why you are reforging mastery away to hit on gear that has crit. Even with VLPC crit does not overtake mastery.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lohe View Post
    If you're semi-hardcore or semi-casual what's the other half? To me, they're both the same thing.
    Canicus - 577 - Arcane Mage - US Mal'Ganis Horde - 12/14H T16

  11. #31
    Old God Swizzle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Makoblade View Post
    I'm not sure why you would say that, since you're 100% wrong. If you are going out of your way to obtain enough haste to soft cap then you're playing incorrectly is all.
    Reforged to Hit cap and all Haste reforged away in a full BiS build, you still have 1800 Haste. So yeah...I don't know why you would want Heroic Firelands gear if you don't want Haste. There's no going out of your way to do anything...the gear spits Haste at you at an uncontrollable rate.

  12. #32

  13. #33
    Old God Swizzle's Avatar
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    How many iterations are you running and what kind of fight?

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Swizzle View Post
    How many iterations are you running and what kind of fight?
    25k iterations, patchwerk.

  15. #35
    So please correct me if im wrong but this is telling me haste>mastery for were i am now correct? I dont see were it says how much haste tho. This also goes against what rawr tells me.. wants to lower haste to 900 and raise mastery/crit



    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...C3%B8it/simple

  16. #36
    Old God Swizzle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zavri View Post
    25k iterations, patchwerk.
    If I had to guess, I'd say that since Arcane only has casted DD spells, it wants to cap you to take full advantage of your legendary. More casts = more procs is the logic I'm assuming the model is following.

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Swizzle View Post
    If I had to guess, I'd say that since Arcane only has casted DD spells, it wants to cap you to take full advantage of your legendary. More casts = more procs is the logic I'm assuming the model is following.
    I'd say you're right, but the problem is the legendary proc rate for arcane blast is super low, around 2% from what i'v heard. It does though proc CONSTANTLY off arcane missles, every single cast it will proc a set of missles at least once. Oh well, I'm just gonna keep my haste around 1600 in my current gear when possible until the correct math and or models of the staff have been figured out.

  18. #38
    Old God Swizzle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zavri View Post
    I'd say you're right, but the problem is the legendary proc rate for arcane blast is super low, around 2% from what i'v heard. It does though proc CONSTANTLY off arcane missles, every single cast it will proc a set of missles at least once. Oh well, I'm just gonna keep my haste around 1600 in my current gear when possible until the correct math and or models of the staff have been figured out.
    Without knowing the exact math behind SimCraft's model for the staff, I gave the best response I could. It also follows from the logic back in WotLK as to why Haste was far and away the best stat for Arcane (no fillers, short duration debuff), but that was before Mastery. The other logic I can understand is that the Haste reduces the amount of downtime brought on by Evocation, so more casts and less down time leads to more DPS...to a point. But that's just me trying to deduce reason from math and I could be wrong on their model.

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Swizzle View Post
    Without knowing the exact math behind SimCraft's model for the staff, I gave the best response I could. It also follows from the logic back in WotLK as to why Haste was far and away the best stat for Arcane (no fillers, short duration debuff), but that was before Mastery. The other logic I can understand is that the Haste reduces the amount of downtime brought on by Evocation, so more casts and less down time leads to more DPS...to a point. But that's just me trying to deduce reason from math and I could be wrong on their model.
    yeah, i agree with your point. I just think that simcraft isn't modeling 2% on AB proc

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by darthpickle View Post
    The soft haste cap is 1767 according to icy veins
    Its actually 1768 and change after the decimal point without a shadow priest in the raid. With a shadow priest its 1076 or there about. Less if you are a Goblin due to the 1% racial.

    Your goal with haste is to hit the 1 second gcd under lust. After you do that, you stack mastery.

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