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  1. #601
    It used to work differently, which was an aspect of the lockout, to prevent 40 rag only MC raids. Nowadays, i don't know.
    A witty saying proves nothing.
    -Voltaire
    winning
    plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose

  2. #602
    Omg, my rogue really want that legendary dagger!!!

  3. #603
    Hello all,

    I have a couple quick questions for those who have worked on the questline on the ptr.

    1. As of now are there any prereqs to being able to pick up the initial quest in DS? I read on one thread that you must complete all three of the new 5man dungeons to gain access to the quest. Is there any truth to this? Have any of you picked up the quest without completing them? I would think this would cause problems if servers come up late on the initial patch day, and being unable to get all three dungeons done before raid.


    2. I've also read that the 12 hour timer on the 'Hidden Message' quest has had the requirement to be online for the entire duration removed, and it now charges while you are offline. Have any of you seen this and confirmed this?


    Thanks in advance!

  4. #604
    Quote Originally Posted by Cotech View Post
    Lately I've heard the same as Flandersson mentioned, 12 hours.
    BUT, I think it would be possible if you do this:
    1: Kill bosses to reach hagara
    2: 1 rogue and 1 other runs out of the instance and leaves the raid
    3: Those 2 create a raid, and the rogue goes in and pick pockets Hagara (as they'd be in their seperate instance, it might work).
    4: The other rogue left in the "mainraid" pickpockets Hagara in there.
    5: The 2 that left rejoins the raid and goes into the instance where the rest of the raid is, and both rogues have their rings.

    This is obviously assuming that you have 2 rogues in the raid only, if you have more you just make stage 2 & 3 more times (obviously should be able to do this simultaneously).

    But yeah, I'm not sure if this actually works, or if it will work, but unless I've missed something about how raid lockouts work, it seems like it should work imo.
    Leaving group and pickpocketing Hagara under a separate instance ID will reset her trash and you'll have to clear that trash.

    Quote Originally Posted by patcherke View Post
    There are only 3 differences between a 1.8 dagger and a slow 2.6 weapon of the same quality: the speed, and as a consequence the min and max damage.
    Sinister strike is based on these min-max values, and not on the speed, but the speed influences these min-max values if you consider a fixed DPS value on the weapons.
    That is why the damage of these abilities was increased by 45%

    As far as my thoughts go, I think MG dps doesn't really change if you compare a slow to a fast weapon.
    since the MG proccing is percentage based, you will get 44% more hits (2.6/1.8 - 1), but for 44% less damage each, but the total DPS will be the same on that part.

    Or am I overlooking something here?
    Instants. While autoattack-based MG dps won't be much different, instants will still have the same proc chance but do less damage without weighted blades, making the dagger-based MG procs overall weaker. I don't think the extra energy from the more frequent MG-CP procs will make for enough extra special abilities to overcome the damage difference.

    The best solution, imo, needs to be somewhere between 0% and 45% increase to MG damage. 45% is too much given the mechanics of combat's mastery, but 0% will make the mastery weak with the daggers.

    This, however, is purely conjecture on my part. I haven't done any back of the envelope calculations to verify it, so take it with a grain of salt.
    Last edited by shadowboy; 2011-11-09 at 04:56 PM.

  5. #605
    Deleted
    @Shadowboy:
    Hagara's got trash? when did this happen? And where will they fit the trash in EoE without players pulling her while doing trash?

  6. #606
    Quote Originally Posted by Cotech View Post
    @Shadowboy:
    Hagara's got trash? when did this happen? And where will they fit the trash in EoE without players pulling her while doing trash?
    She's always had trash as far as I'm aware. The trash just wasn't active when she specifically was being tested. It's in the form of a gauntlet, sort of, she opens portals around the platform at intervals which spawn waves of trash.

    She doesn't dismount from her flying disc and become active until the trash is cleared.

  7. #607
    We have 3 rogues run our 25 mans, is it going to be possible for all 3 to pickpocket the ring on the same reset by resetting the instance once the 1st 2 boss's are down, or is a weekly raid lockout type deal?

  8. #608
    Quote Originally Posted by Leitka View Post
    She's always had trash as far as I'm aware. The trash just wasn't active when she specifically was being tested. It's in the form of a gauntlet, sort of, she opens portals around the platform at intervals which spawn waves of trash.

    She doesn't dismount from her flying disc and become active until the trash is cleared.
    Correct. That and she is not targetable while trash is present so you can't pick pocket her until the trash is cleared.

    Quote Originally Posted by Seph666 View Post
    We have 3 rogues run our 25 mans, is it going to be possible for all 3 to pickpocket the ring on the same reset by resetting the instance once the 1st 2 boss's are down, or is a weekly raid lockout type deal?
    You may be able to get all 3 rogues the decoder ring via either soft resets (or an intentional wipe--not sure if a wipe will reset her pickpocket loot), or you could clear up to her, generate 3 10-man groups, clear her trash, pickpocket, then reform your 25 man group for the real attempts.

    That I do not know the answer to. All I've seen of DS on the PTR is the LFR difficulty and even then only 1 run. Trash was there and active so I am assuming that it will be true in 10 and 25 man. I could pickpocket the boss in LFR but could not loot the ring since they've now disabled that on LFR on PTR, but after wipes I was able to re-attempt the pickpocket, but given the nature of the error ("you are ineligible of looting on an encounter you've already defeated in this lockout blah blah blah, workaround I assume), it's hard to say exactly how it'll work in 10 man.

    I'd imagine they are gonna put in some sort of built-in throttle to prevent multiple rogues from getting the daggers at the same time, without slowing down legendary progression for ALL of them.
    Last edited by shadowboy; 2011-11-10 at 12:06 AM.

  9. #609
    Quote Originally Posted by shadowboy View Post
    Correct. That and she is not targetable while trash is present so you can't pick pocket her until the trash is cleared.



    You may be able to get all 3 rogues the decoder ring via either soft resets (or an intentional wipe--not sure if a wipe will reset her pickpocket loot), or you could clear up to her, generate 3 10-man groups, clear her trash, pickpocket, then reform your 25 man group for the real attempts.

    That I do not know the answer to. All I've seen of DS on the PTR is the LFR difficulty and even then only 1 run. Trash was there and active so I am assuming that it will be true in 10 and 25 man. I could pickpocket the boss in LFR but could not loot the ring since they've now disabled that on LFR on PTR, but after wipes I was able to re-attempt the pickpocket, but given the nature of the error ("you are ineligible of looting on an encounter you've already defeated in this lockout blah blah blah, workaround I assume), it's hard to say exactly how it'll work in 10 man.

    I'd imagine they are gonna put in some sort of built-in throttle to prevent multiple rogues from getting the daggers at the same time, without slowing down legendary progression for ALL of them.
    I've actually wondered if theres maybe something opposite intended. I haven't done 25 man raiding on the PTR very much but I've heard reports that at least at one period, the shadowy gem clusters were dropping twice per boss on 25, and once on 10. One way that could go would mean 25 man will still gain them twice as fast, another way could mean 25 man can build 2 as 10 man builds 1, which would be much fairer in terms of dps/raid size since 25 mans are roughly twice the size of 10 mans.

    So possibly something like a 25 man guild will finish two sets as a 10 man guild finishes one set. That way you'd be looking at mostly the same completion time, but 25 mans wouldn't be gimped by the fact because they'd retain the same completion ratio. That's entirely speculation based on 3rd party rumors though.

    Quoting Ashvael;
    Currently Elementium Gem Clusters give 4-8 of these gems when opened.

    10man raid bosses in Dragon Soul will drop 1 cluster and 25man bosses will drop 2.
    Currently there is no difference between normal and heroic kills regarding the drop rate.
    so yeah, my interpretation of that is that building two at once may be fully intended for 25 man.
    Last edited by akteliae; 2011-11-10 at 12:17 AM.

  10. #610
    Deleted
    does anyone on the PTR know if combats mastery procs can "proc" a stack of the agi buff? as this would seem to balance them a little more as combat would in essence have more chances per minute to proc the agi buff and balance the fact it's finishers are slightly lower.

  11. #611
    The first stage daggers are up on PTR of wowhead here is the link with equip bonus and set http://ptr.wowhead.com/quest=30106 , dont you just love the 4th equip

  12. #612
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Viglante View Post
    does anyone on the PTR know if combats mastery procs can "proc" a stack of the agi buff? as this would seem to balance them a little more as combat would in essence have more chances per minute to proc the agi buff and balance the fact it's finishers are slightly lower.
    It says it procs of melee attacks, so I would assume it does.

  13. #613
    Deleted
    I think it's time you recruit a good rogue then.

  14. #614
    ive tried to find my answer everywhere... how do we actually start the quest for legendary daggers... do we have to kill deathwing first or what?

  15. #615
    Qtbelf, not sure myself but I can guarntee that you don't have to kill the final boss to start the quest up.

  16. #616
    Deleted
    Go inside the instance
    Turn right
    Talk to the NPC with the big yellow !
    And start the questline

  17. #617
    Mechagnome Tekloth's Avatar
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    [SPOILERS] Legendary Questline Links and Info - Rogue - Wowhead Forums

    Full quest logs, and information/guides about the quests before you obtain the p1 daggers.

    My post from the EJ rogue forums with calculations for the questlines duration in total:

    With the droprate of 4-8 shards per 1 cluster, 1 cluster per boss on 10man, 2 on 25man, it'll take around ~14.5 weeks to obtain the legendaries on 10man and ~7.2 weeks on 25man counting with a 6-per-cluster-average if the numbers of shards (333) and clusters (60) remain the same when the patch hits live, which I assume will happen due to the previous release candidate build on the PTR's.

    A bit more time into studying the quests shows, that if you can convince the raid to allow you to get the p1 and p2 daggers immediately, when you have the chance (i.e halting raid progress after Hagara, so you can do the questline to start collecting shards), you would require 43 bosses on-average to reach phase 2, leaving you with +-3 bosses from the 6th reset for phase 2 clusters. For phase 2 you'd require 7 resets + 1 boss from the 8th reset which would be the same reset you'd get your legendaries. Totaling to 14 resets on 10man.

    If you're lucky enough to get 8 shards from each cluster, this drops down to 38 bosses for p1, 2 bosses from the 5th reset and 7 resets + 2 bosses from the 8th reset for p2, dropping the time required to 13 weeks. On 25man the numbers are half from this.

    So in all of its simplicity; p1, depending on your luck, will last for around 5-11 resets on 10man, and 3-5 resets on 25man, p2 always requires 7 full-clear resets and 4 bosses on 10man, and 3 full clear resets and 6 bosses on 25man. So theoretically the legendary daggers become available on the 7th week post-patch on 25man and 13th week post-patch on 10man.

    All of the above calculations assume that you kill every boss on normal since the first reset, that you are eligible to collect the quest shards for p1 from the last 4 bosses of the first reset, and that the amount of clusters dropped per boss is unaffected by heroic mode.

    If the amout of clusters dropped per boss remains the same as normal on heroic, then the above calculations would be precise, if heroic affects the amount of clusters dropped, the time required to obtain the daggers would lessen significately after the first time you kill Deathwing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ghõst
    One could, theoretically, move a rogue into a ten man group that has 3/8 down, pickpocket Hagara, then start the questline without being saved to a single boss in DS. If they then cleared normal on 25 man later in the week after P1 of the questline is done, then you would have 6 more clusters in week one (on 25 man). I don't think most guild's would be so accommodating, but that would be the fastest way to acquire the legendary.
    If the above strategy is used, it'd end up with the following numbers on 25man;
    Worst case scenario (4 shards per cluster):
    5 resets + 2 bosses, 42 bosses in total for phase 1,
    6 bosses + 3 resets (OR 3 resets + 6 bosses if your guild won't allow you to turn in the quest mid-raid, you'll end up on the 10th reset anyway so it doesn't matter if you kill the bosses before or after the 3 resets), 30 bosses in total for phase 2,
    which sums up at exactly 9 resets for phases 1 and 2 if you turn the quest in mid-raid, 10 resets if you don't, and 10th reset is when you obtain legendary since you won't be able to kill Deathwing for the legendary daggers at the 9th reset, 10 weeks in total.

    On average (6 shards per cluster):
    3 resets + 4 bosses, 28 bosses in total for phase 1,
    4 bosses + 3 resets + 2 bosses (OR 3 resets + 6 bosses if your guild won't allow you to turn in the quest mid-raid), 30 bosses in total for phase 2,
    which sums up at 8 resets for phases 1 and 2 if you turn the quest in mid-raid, 9 resets if you don't, and you obtain the legendary daggers on the same reset, sums up at 8 or 9 weeks in total.

    Best possible scenario (8 shards per cluster):
    2 resets + 5 bosses, 21 bosses in total for phase 1,
    3 bosses + 3 resets + 3 bosses (OR 3 resets + 6 bosses if your guild won't allow you to turn in the quest mid-raid), 30 bosses in total for phase 2,
    which sums up at 7 resets in total for phases 1 and 2 no matter which way you complete the quest, and you obtain the legendary daggers on the same reset, sums up at 7 weeks in total.

    As such, the realistic figure for a 25man raid to obtain the first legendary is anywhere between 7 and 9 weeks.

    OK, back to calculating, this time 10man using the strategy mentioned above:
    Worst case scenario (4 shards per cluster):
    10 resets + 4 bosses, 84 bosses and in total for phase 1,
    4 bosses + 7 resets (OR 7 resets + 4 bosses if your guild won't allow you to turn in the quest mid-raid), 60 bosses in total for phase 2,
    sums up at 18 resets in total for phases 1 and 2 if you turn the quest in mid-raid, 19 resets if you don't. You'll be pushed to the 19th reset for the legendary, 19 weeks in total.

    On average (6 shards per cluster):
    7 resets, 56 bosses in total for phase 1,
    7 resets + 4 bosses, 60 bosses in total for phase 2,
    sums up at 15 resets, you obtain the legendary on the 15th reset. 15 weeks in total.

    Best possible scenario (8 shards per cluster):
    5 resets + 2 bosses, 42 bosses in total for phase 1,
    6 bosses + 6 resets + 6 bosses (OR 7 resets + 4 bosses if your guild won't allow you to turn in the quest mid-raid), 60 bosses in total for phase 2,
    sums up at 13 resets if you turn the quest in mid-raid, 14 resets if you don't. You'll get the legendary on the same reset as you finish your p2. 13 or 14 weeks in total.

    As such, the realistic figure for a 10man raid to obtain the first legendary is anywhere between 14 and 17 weeks.

    Conclusion:
    The disparity between the time it takes to complete the chain 10 and 25man was to be expected, the figures show that when the 10 man raider gets his first legendary, the 25man will probably have 2 already, or is close to completing the second which kind of evens it out considering the number of people (and rogues) involved in the raids. Your basic 10man will usually have that 1 rogue, and 25man either 2 or 3, thus the "whole" raid has obtained its legendary daggers in a similar time frame.
    Last edited by Tekloth; 2011-11-15 at 01:09 PM.

  18. #618
    Deleted
    14+ weeks. So its another useless Legendary for 10 man Progress Guilds, And i thought they would have learned something from the Staff and its the last Raid too...

  19. #619
    Bloodsail Admiral dicertification's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ripslyme View Post
    14+ weeks. So its another useless Legendary for 10 man Progress Guilds, And i thought they would have learned something from the Staff and its the last Raid too...
    it really evens out for both as a 25 man will get two in the time 10 mans get one (approx). Seems fair for the number of people involved.

  20. #620
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by dicertification View Post
    it really evens out for both as a 25 man will get two in the time 10 mans get one (approx). Seems fair for the number of people involved.
    the problem is not whether it is even for 25 or 10 men, the problem is that by the time a 10-men guild gets one, the tier is almost finished.
    For example; we are a 10 men guild that gets 6/7 HC, and our mage still has not finished his staff (and we all know how close 4.3 is) meanwhile there are 25-men guilds that are 1/7, that have more than 1 legendary for several weeks already.
    25-men can use legendaries for progress faster, thus speeding up the progress even more.

    what they need to find is a system in which a player can only have a max amount of shards/tokens/whatever-you-are-collecting each week, and then let there be 2.5-3 times more of those on 25, so that there can be multiple people collecting at once.
    that would mean that they both will get legendaries at around the same time, but 10-ers will have 1, while 25-ers will get 2-3 (2.5 on average) in that time.

    14 weeks is half a tier in time...
    (not that it is so bad that it takes time, but it is ridiculous long when compared to a 25-er guild to get one at least.)

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