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  1. #41
    Deleted
    Font size to indicate a sub section of an unrelated section is bad, surely weapons would fall under gearing.

    For the spec there is some wiggle room although Initiative is a very low dps gain it offers consistency in the amount of ambush cps generated, something that is unreliable is simply unreliable. I myself use 2/2 Initiative just because I like to do ambush - evis X 3 in a shadowdance simply because it is not demanding on energy regen and pumps out just as much dps without the need to pool and use premed. I do not spend all of my energy on - ambush, ambush, evis, ambush, ambush, evis. Because i do not use all my energy on ambush i can get in an aditional backstab under SD weakness.


    This information is not new. You did not add any information about shadow meld. Being a sub guide and leaving out any mention of an additional cool down is bad and lazy people still are misinformed about shadow meld I suggest mentioning it in a sub guide. I don't know how you got a sticky you have just copy and pasted EJ's version and updated the glyphs while preaching about recoup despite being told a number of times.

    This site would only really gain if you are going to update it as we progress unlike other guides.

    I find that delaying my rupture by even a second or two at the start of a fight just gives me more of a chance for landslide to proc or trinkets or any other buff really just use it before master falls off, which is like 6 seconds I think.

    In fact if i was not a sub fan and had not read every scrap of information on sub rogues i would not understand a lot of things you have posted on this page. You did not mention the fact that while find weakness is up you should only be using backstab and eviscerate. refreshing slice and dice and refreshing recoup can not compare to having your ability's hit dramaticly harder, the point being prepare for the find weakness debuff so that you can get the max out of it. No mention of that an you only go on to say its very important. you could have people using find weakness and only benefiting from back stab and using these combo points to restore SND and Recoup.

    Your information on recuperate is bad there is no set in stone rotation for sub it is a firefighting spec, react or fail. recoup gives reliable energy regen and it is not based on combo points a 1 point recoup gives the same energy per second as a 5 point, the effect only lasts longer resulting in more energy procs. Yes it is a fact that using a 5 point recoup will ensure energy return when the finisher is cast. However for every second recoup is down you lose energy - just because it is ensured a return on 5 combo points does not mean it wont return energy with a 1 point finisher. You could let your rotation go to hell by only using 5 point finishers or you can keep your rotation and take a risk.

    Some math to back this up.
    12/3 = 4 per second for every second it is down after 5 seconds its 20 evergy.
    using 5 point recoup will return 25 energy but using a 1 point recoup will return 5 (energy based on unending amount of time 1 point making a 20% chance of 25 which works out to be 5 energy for every 1 combo point exactly. This removes rng)

    You gain 4 energy per second with recoup lets say you delay using recoup for 3-4 seconds thats 12-16 energy. now lets say we did not drop recoup, if you had used a 2 combo point recoup. 2 points with relentless strikes is 10 energy coupled with recoup energy regen you gain 22-26 energy which is a net gain. I suggest only using 2 or 3+ cp recoups depending on how long you expect recoup to be down. This is the point at which it is worth the risk.
    The ability to do this on the fly is what makes good players.

    Which will effect your dps more - losing your rotation and ensuring some extra energy or keeping rotation going and a chance of extra energy.
    Now every rogue should use 5 point finishers as much as you can but i feel in reality, in game, saying that only use 5 point recoup is wrong its just not maintainable.

    Using a macro with abilitys like premed and shadowstep will only cause trouble its not worth the gain just key bind individually Eg someone macros premed and ambush and they use this macro to open now they will either have an ambush button alone somewhere on a bar or they will delay your next find weakness buff untill premed is off cd. shadow step is a prime example, say you use it to get on a new target you must delay using your macro untill the cd comes off. in both cases you will either need to delay using the macro or use 2 separate buttons which is what we started off using.

    All in all the information posted here is common knowledge, you should have made a post highlighting the hemo glyph as this is the only new information posted here.
    Last edited by mmoc88079bcae7; 2011-10-02 at 04:10 PM.

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Superp View Post
    Font size to indicate a sub section of an unrelated section is bad, surely weapons would fall under gearing.
    Sure, I'll move it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Superp View Post
    For the spec there is some wiggle room although Initiative is a very low dps gain it offers consistency in the amount of ambush cps generated, something that is unreliable is simply unreliable. I myself use 2/2 Initiative just because I like to do ambush - evis X 3 in a shadowdance simply because it is not demanding on energy regen and pumps out just as much dps without the need to pool and use premed. I do not spend all of my energy on - ambush, ambush, evis, ambush, ambush, evis. Because i do not use all my energy on ambush i can get in an aditional backstab under SD weakness.
    Why would you want to sacrifice Find Weakness uptime to get more CPs during Shadow Dance, especially when you generally waste a lot of CPs during Shadow Dance anyway?

    Quote Originally Posted by Superp View Post
    You did not add any information about shadow meld. Being a sub guide and leaving out any mention of an additional cool down is bad and lazy people still are misinformed about shadow meld I suggest mentioning it in a sub guide. I don't know how you got a sticky you have just copy and pasted EJ's version and updated the glyphs while preaching about recoup despite being told a number of times.
    I deliberately left out racials because I don't think that they are relevant, nor should people feel like they have to race change because X racial is better than Y. I may add it in some day, though. Also, I know about Shadowmeld, but I only know how much FW uptime it's worth, I have no actual figure for it's DPS output. I just checked EJ, this guide doesn't look much like it, funnily enough.

    Quote Originally Posted by Superp View Post
    I find that delaying my rupture by even a second or two at the start of a fight just gives me more of a chance for landslide to proc or trinkets or any other buff really just use it before master falls off, which is like 6 seconds I think.
    Well that's a given really. You end up with ~4 seconds to pool, though it's not usually necessary at all I find, and you are wasting CPs for every second you pool at 5 CPs. It might be a possibility to use your 5CP pre-pull on Recuperate, then Premeditation->SnD and then open normally, giving you more time to pool for procs, though the DPS difference is likely to be minuscule anyway.

    Quote Originally Posted by Superp View Post
    In fact if i was not a sub fan and had not read every scrap of information on sub rogues i would not understand a lot of things you have posted on this page. You did not mention the fact that while find weakness is up you should only be using backstab and eviscerate. refreshing slice and dice and refreshing recoup can not compare to having your ability's hit dramaticly harder, the point being prepare for the find weakness debuff so that you can get the max out of it. No mention of that an you only go on to say its very important. you could have people using find weakness and only benefiting from back stab and using these combo points to restore SND and Recoup.
    Yeah...No. You shouldn't neglect Recuperate/SnD uptime in any situation. I think you're forgetting that SnD benefits from Find Weakness and Recuperate directly increases the amount of Backstabs you get off. Who's ass are you pulling this information out of?

    Quote Originally Posted by Superp View Post
    Your information on recuperate is bad there is no set in stone rotation for sub it is a firefighting spec, react or fail. recoup gives reliable energy regen and it is not based on combo points a 1 point recoup gives the same energy per second as a 5 point, the effect only lasts longer resulting in more energy procs. Yes it is a fact that using a 5 point recoup will ensure energy return when the finisher is cast. However for every second recoup is down you lose energy - just because it is ensured a return on 5 combo points does not mean it wont return energy with a 1 point finisher. You could let your rotation go to hell by only using 5 point finishers or you can keep your rotation and take a risk.
    You don't lose energy for every second Recuperate is up. You lose damage for every second SnD is not up, but Recuperate doesn't work like that. There is no benefit to keeping Recuperate up with 2-3 CPs when you sacrifice efficiency. As long as you're not neglecting putting Recuperate up ASAP, using only 5 CP Recuperates is the best thing to do, in all situations.

    Quote Originally Posted by Superp View Post
    Some math to back this up.
    12/3 = 4 per second for every second it is down after 5 seconds its 20 evergy.
    using 5 point recoup will return 25 energy but using a 1 point recoup will return 5 (energy based on unending amount of time 1 point making a 20% chance of 25 which works out to be 5 energy for every 1 combo point exactly. This removes rng)

    You gain 4 energy per second with recoup lets say you delay using recoup for 3-4 seconds thats 12-16 energy. now lets say we did not drop recoup, if you had used a 2 combo point recoup. 2 points with relentless strikes is 10 energy coupled with recoup energy regen you gain 22-26 energy which is a net gain. I suggest only using 2 or 3+ cp recoups depending on how long you expect recoup to be down. This is the point at which it is worth the risk.
    The ability to do this on the fly is what makes good players.
    Using a 2-3 CP Recuperate is a gain of not using Recuperate at all, sure, but it's an opportunity loss, since you could have put that 5 energy (more if you do a 2-3 CP one) into a 5 CP Recuperate for an overall gain in energy. You might lose ticks while you build to 5 CP, but you gain ticks too since your Recuperate is longer. Also, when you use a sub-5CP Recuperate, you're also spending more energy on casting Recuperate since you have a lower chance to proc Relentless Strikes, lowering the energy gain even more.

    It will only every take you 3 seconds at most to get from 3cp to 5cp. In that 3 seconds, you 'lose' 12 energy from not having Recuperate up. However, your Recuperate will cost 10 more energy to cast on average, which almost cancels out the 12 energy you would have 'lost' if you let Recuperate drop for 3 seconds. Then there's the fact that, when you wait for 3 seconds to get a 5 CP Recuperate up, you gain an extra 4 ticks, which is worth 48 energy.

    I don't think I can make this any clearer. Using only 5 CP Recuperates is a net energy increase over using sub-5CP Recuperates. You don't use 3 CP Recuperates.

    Quote Originally Posted by Superp View Post
    Which will effect your dps more - losing your rotation and ensuring some extra energy or keeping rotation going and a chance of extra energy.
    Now every rogue should use 5 point finishers as much as you can but i feel in reality, in game, saying that only use 5 point recoup is wrong its just not maintainable.
    It's not maintainable to only use 5pt Recuperates? Really? Maybe you find it difficult but it is perfectly doable. As long as you follow the priority (Buffed Rupture>=SnD>Rupture>Recuperate) you should never have any issue playing the spec with only 5 CP Recuperates.

    Quote Originally Posted by Superp View Post
    Using a macro with abilitys like premed and shadowstep will only cause trouble its not worth the gain just key bind individually Eg someone macros premed and ambush and they use this macro to open now they will either have an ambush button alone somewhere on a bar or they will delay your next find weakness buff untill premed is off cd. shadow step is a prime example, say you use it to get on a new target you must delay using your macro untill the cd comes off. in both cases you will either need to delay using the macro or use 2 separate buttons which is what we started off using.
    I don't use macros, personally. People asked for a macro section and PM'd me some macros, so I put them in. I agree that the premed macro could lead to wasting it's 2 CPs, I'll edit that in.

    Quote Originally Posted by Superp View Post
    All in all the information posted here is common knowledge, you should have made a post highlighting the hemo glyph as this is the only new information posted here.
    I'm not usually a rude guy, but from reading your post again it seems that it's actually not common knowledge, or else you'd know it, right?

  3. #43
    Deleted
    This is not dodge ball Synexlol, i have proven recoups viability at 2-3 points cps depending on expected downtime. As with the energy return on relentless blades i will not repeat myself the facts are posted and live in game. Other than that i respect the fact that you are putting effort into making a guide like this and wish you luck. i hope you continue to update it as you go and do not give up so easily.

    edit- You strike me as a rude person, coupled with a tad of ignorance given this is only the 3rd page, there will be countless amendments in a proper guide. Just because you don't get it right the first time does not mean you wont, keep at it.
    Last edited by mmoc88079bcae7; 2011-10-02 at 06:05 PM.

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Superp View Post
    edit- You strike me as a rude person, coupled with a tad of ignorance given this is only the 3rd page, there will be countless amendments in a proper guide. Just because you don't get it right the first time does not mean you wont, keep at it.
    Considering you came in and basically said "well done you copy pasted this from EJ. You don't even have X/Y/Z in your guide!", and almost everything you said was wrong, what do you expect? I gave you credit for pointing out the issue with the macros and weapons being it's own heading, but other than that all you contributed was wrong, and you were quite obviously looking to bash me rather than contribute to the guide. I make amendments where they are to be made, but don't expect me to advise people to drop SnD/Recuperate just because you claim it's an increase in an overly in-your-face post.

    Ignorance? What, I'm ignorant to your utterly wrong claims that you should ignore SnD/Recup while Find Weakness is up and that the rotation isn't? What did you expect?

    If you're going to act like you know the spec better than I do (and I'm sure there's people who do) or point out problems with the OP, then at least try to not be a complete jackass in the process, rather than blatantly trying to bash me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Superp View Post
    Just because you don't get it right the first time does not mean you wont, keep at it.
    Your false sincerity doesn't really fly either.

  5. #45
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Synexlol View Post
    Considering you came in and basically said "well done you copy pasted this from EJ. You don't even have X/Y/Z in your guide!", and almost everything you said was wrong, what do you expect? I gave you credit for pointing out the issue with the macros and weapons being it's own heading, but other than that all you contributed was wrong, and you were quite obviously looking to bash me rather than contribute to the guide. I make amendments where they are to be made, but don't expect me to advise people to drop SnD/Recuperate just because you claim it's an increase in an overly in-your-face post.

    Ignorance? What, I'm ignorant to your utterly wrong claims that you should ignore SnD/Recup while Find Weakness is up and that the rotation isn't? What did you expect?

    If you're going to act like you know the spec better than I do (and I'm sure there's people who do) or point out problems with the OP, then at least try to not be a complete jackass in the process, rather than blatantly trying to bash me.



    Your false sincerity doesn't really fly either.
    Considering that multiple people told you that waiting for a 5 CP Recup is a bad idea, you still camp on your idea that "5 CP recup is better". You don't talk about the use of Hemo Glyph to ease with target switching, you don't even talk about the fights where Sub shines (Bethilac, Alysrazor, Baleroc) and why, same with the pros and cons of playing a Sub spec. Accept critics, or else put your guide on a blog and lock comments, that way you won't get any useful criticism.

    Btw, I have a question, do you REALLY play Sub in PvE ? Or did you make this guide simply from what Sub spec is all about on paper ?

  6. #46
    Deleted
    er........... why is sub the "must be spec" for the legendaries?
    Last edited by mmoc335f2888ba; 2011-10-02 at 09:22 PM.

  7. #47
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Yaminomeph View Post
    er........... why is sub the "must be spec" for the legendaries?
    Some people like to call it the "must be spec" because that's the spec which scales the most with weapon damage and moreover, agility. I will laugh at people respeccing Sub for doing "more dps with legendaries" and doing crap dps because they will fail to follow the "rotation" as it is far from set in stone like Assas/Combat are.

    I'm waiting for a good, good laugh.

  8. #48
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Synexlol View Post

    Ignorance? What, I'm ignorant to your utterly wrong claims that you should ignore SnD/Recup while Find Weakness is up and that the rotation isn't? What did you expect?

    Your false sincerity doesn't really fly either.
    I am sorry you feel this way however in the context of the paragraph i wrote regarding find weakness and only using backstab / evis, i went on to say that preparing for the find weakness would yield greater results much like it does on shadow dance.

    /Regards Souchon

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Dalarius View Post
    Considering that multiple people told you that waiting for a 5 CP Recup is a bad idea, you still camp on your idea that "5 CP recup is better". You don't talk about the use of Hemo Glyph to ease with target switching, you don't even talk about the fights where Sub shines (Bethilac, Alysrazor, Baleroc) and why, same with the pros and cons of playing a Sub spec. Accept critics, or else put your guide on a blog and lock comments, that way you won't get any useful criticism.

    Btw, I have a question, do you REALLY play Sub in PvE ? Or did you make this guide simply from what Sub spec is all about on paper ?
    People have indeed said that you should use 3pt Recuperates, that doesn't make it right, to be brutally honest. There is no benefit to using a 3pt Recuperate at all, and I'm not going to advise people to waste energy in order to make their uptime number a little higher, because it's not the right thing to do.

    Hemo when target switching isn't really needed in most cases anyway, and Hemo should be your first attack on a new target regardless. I considered adding it in, but I eventually decided that it wasn't necessary. I might just add it in, but I don't think it's important at all since it's rarely necessary.

    I don't think there's much point in saying what fights Sub is good/bad on; it's quite obvious anyway. I would say that Combat is the best spec for Beth'tilac with it's cleave for downstairs and incredibly strong cooldowns for upstairs (although Assassination is technically better in P2) too. Subtlety only really 'shines' on Shannox and Baleroc, most other fights are grey areas at best for Subtlety, and I figured people would be able to figure out that Subtlety only really trumps the other specs on stand-still fights for themselves, I shouldn't need to say it.

    Again, I really don't think it's necessary to say "Subtlety is strong single target if you can work the hard rotation", it should be pretty obvious to anyone who's done any form of research into the spec or tried it. I already pointed out that you can spec into survivability, and I don't think it's worth saying any more about it since most people already know that you can sacrifice DPS for survivability in every spec of every class (I don't really mean to be sarcastic here).

    If people think it's imperative that I add these things (I think they are mostly redundant) then I'll add them sure. I'm all for criticism, if someone points out somewhere that the guide can improve (without it being something that you can figure out for yourself by looking at the spec), then I'll add/change it. However, when a guy comes in and attempts to bash me then follows it up with terrible suggestions, I'm not going to even think about taking him seriously.

    I don't usually post my Armory/anything about my character on forums, but yes, I've played Subtlety since the end of WotLK and throughout Cataclysm at a reasonably high level (ie. 2 days/week with 13/13 and 6/7 pre-nerf). I don't understand what you mean by 'what Sub spec is all about on paper'. On paper or off paper, the rotation is the same. I'm pretty sure this is the '3pt Recuperates are better in X/Y/Z rare situations you have to adapt' argument again, and as I said last time, in that situation you refresh whatever's about to drop THEN Recuperate w/ 5cp.

    edit:

    Quote Originally Posted by Superp View Post
    I am sorry you feel this way however in the context of the paragraph i wrote regarding find weakness and only using backstab / evis, i went on to say that preparing for the find weakness would yield greater results much like it does on shadow dance.

    /Regards Souchon
    Well that would mean refreshing Recuperate and SnD possibly far before they finish (since you should never delay your ShD/Vanish more than pooling before ShD), which is also a very bad idea. It may be worth considering in the sense that you could refresh SnD a few seconds earlier so you wouldn't have to refresh it during your Vanish's Find Weakness, but something like that isn't even worth mentioning, it would be a tiny DPS difference. You could also (and you should where possible) refresh Recuperate between the penultimate and final tick, but again, it's a tiny rotation tweak in a situation that is quite rare, so it's not worth mentioning.

    Maybe it was your wording or my interpretation, but it seemed like you were suggesting ignoring SnD/Recuperate during Find Weakness so you could get more up-front damage, which wouldn't be
    Last edited by Synexlol; 2011-10-02 at 10:03 PM.

  10. #50
    Deleted
    That's cool Synexlol i am sure other people misread what i said as well.
    Why not treat it like shadow dance and only vanish/ambush with 10+ seconds on Recoup or SnD as far as i can see there is no downside only extra finishers under find weakness.

    I must ask Who is this guide aimed at. No disrespect but that's a lot of assumptions with regard to new players and it seems a bit light for seasoned players.
    The read is nice and i see you are updating it which is all cool. keep up the good work.

    Why not ask on EJ's forums about the recoup issue see if it holds water.
    Last edited by mmoc88079bcae7; 2011-10-02 at 10:21 PM.

  11. #51
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    very nice guide synek but Sub is still the illegitimate nephew compared too the other 2 specs.
    Probs for the guide tho

  12. #52
    I just want to stress out the point that there is no actual benefit from using a sub-5CP Recuperate. To understand why, one should understand how Recuperate works : Recuperate generates 12 energy every tick for a set period that depends on the CPs invested, it also costs energy. The higher the CPs invested, the higher is Recuperate's actual energy gain. And that's it ! It's not about uptime but about how much energy you regain per second during the lifetime of your Recup. Let's do some math (and correct me if i'm wrong) :

    Refreshing Rec @ 2CP : 48 - 30 = 18 energy. The actual net gain is 18 energy over 12s (you only start actually gaining energy after 7.5s have passed*) => 1.5 e/s

    Refreshing Rec @ 3CP : 72 - 30 = 42 energy. The actual net gain is 42 energy over 18s (you only start actually gaining energy after 7.5s have passed*) => 2.3 e/s

    Refreshing Rec @ 4CP : 96 - 30 = 66 energy. The actual net gain is 66 energy over 24s (you only start actually gaining energy after 7.5s have passed*) => 2.75 e/s

    Refreshing Rec @ 5CP : 120 - 30 = 90 energy. The actual net gain is 90 energy over 30s (you only start actually gaining energy after 7.5s have passed*) => 3 e/s

    Now let's compare the gains/costs of refreshing at 2CP vs waiting for 5CP :

    2CP : 1.5 e/s
    delay + 5CP : 90 over D+30s (D being the time Recup is not up because you're building the CPs)

    At equilibrium : D = (90 - 1.5*30)/1.5 = 30s

    Meaning that using 2CP is only better if building 3 more CPs will take more than 30s. So unless i'm doing some terrible math here (and it's quite possible to be honest), you're always better off using a 5CP Recup and if it's falling at the same moment as SnD or Rupture you MUST refresh SnD/Rupture first (as that is an actuel net DPS loss) then build the 5CP Recup ASAP (ASAP being < 30s if you had 2CP before choosing to delay Recup)

    * to account for the 30 lost energy
    Last edited by DrunkenBeard; 2011-10-02 at 10:29 PM.

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Superp View Post
    That's cool Synexlol i am sure other people misread what i said as well.
    Why not treat it like shadow dance and only vanish/ambush with 10+ seconds on Recoup or SnD as far as i can see there is no downside only extra finishers under find weakness.

    I must ask Who is this guide aimed at. No disrespect but that's a lot of assumptions with regard to new players and it seems a bit light for seasoned players.
    The read is nice and i see you are updating it which is all cool. keep up the good work.

    Why not ask on EJ's forums about the recoup issue see if it holds water.
    The downside to delaying vanish/ShD for optimal SnD/recuperate timing is that you lose Find Weakness uptime, which, as anrule of thumb, is more valuable than anything else. It may be worth swaying it a few seconds by refreshing SnD early (I doubt it's worth refreshing recuperate early), but that's about it I'd say.

    I see your concern about the target audience; I intend to refine it in then coming week, I'm busy with other things lately though but it will be done!

    I might mention it at EJ, but I'm certain I'm right anyway, unless my logic is very much flawed (which could be possible). DrunkenBeared explained it in the way that inwas probably too lazy to do. It's nice to see that I'm not just insane. By the way, DrunkenBeard, you forgot to factor in Relentless Strikes, which actually works in favour of 5pt Recuperates.

    Wha, would this nephew be born of a lemon party, by any chance?
    Last edited by Synexlol; 2011-10-02 at 10:50 PM.

  14. #54
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by DrunkenBeard View Post

    Refreshing Rec @ 2CP : 48 - 30 = 18 energy. The actual net gain is 18 energy over 12s (you only start actually gaining energy after 7.5s have passed*) => 1.5 e/s

    Refreshing Rec @ 3CP : 72 - 30 = 42 energy. The actual net gain is 42 energy over 18s (you only start actually gaining energy after 7.5s have passed*) => 2.3 e/s

    Refreshing Rec @ 4CP : 96 - 30 = 66 energy. The actual net gain is 66 energy over 24s (you only start actually gaining energy after 7.5s have passed*) => 2.75 e/s

    Refreshing Rec @ 5CP : 120 - 30 = 90 energy. The actual net gain is 90 energy over 30s (you only start actually gaining energy after 7.5s have passed*) => 3 e/s

    Now let's compare the gains/costs of refreshing at 2CP vs waiting for 5CP :

    2CP : 1.5 e/s
    delay + 5CP : 90 over D+30s (D being the time Recup is not up because you're building the CPs)

    At equilibrium : D = (90 - 1.5*30)/1.5 = 30s

    Meaning that using 2CP is only better if building 3 more CPs will take more than 30s. So unless i'm doing some terrible math here (and it's quite possible to be honest), you're always better off using a 5CP Recup and if it's falling at the same moment as SnD or Rupture you MUST refresh SnD/Rupture first (as that is an actuel net DPS loss) then build the 5CP Recup ASAP (ASAP being < 30s if you had 2CP before choosing to delay Recup)

    * to account for the 30 lost energy
    // ~12/3 = 4 per second for every second it is down after 5 seconds its 20 evergy.
    using 5 point recoup will return 25 energy but using a 1 point recoup will return 5 (energy based on unending amount of time 1 point making a 20% chance of 25 which works out to be 5 energy for every 1 combo point exactly. This removes rng)

    You are not including the energy gained from relentless strikes, using a finisher at 2 combo points will give you an additional 10 energy based on the % rules 40% of the total 25. This will result in 5 energy for every Additional combo point.

    This means that your grid will look something like this

    Refreshing Rec @ 2CP : 48 + 10 - 30 = 28 energy. The actual net gain is 28 energy over 12s

    Refreshing Rec @ 3CP : 72 + 15 - 30 = 57 energy. The actual net gain is 57 energy over 18s e/s

    Refreshing Rec @ 4CP : 96 + 20 - 30 = 86 energy. The actual net gain is 86 energy over 24s

    Refreshing Rec @ 5CP : 120 + 25 - 30 = 115 energy.

    This means that
    - the difference between using 2 and a 3 combo points is 29 energy
    - the difference between using 3 and a 4 combo points is 29 energy
    - the difference between using 4 and a 5 combo points is 29 energy

    Again mo chara, i have proven this Absolutely viable,
    Last edited by mmoc88079bcae7; 2011-10-04 at 12:06 AM.

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Superp View Post
    // ~12/3 = 4 per second for every second it is down after 5 seconds its 20 evergy.
    using 5 point recoup will return 25 energy but using a 1 point recoup will return 5 (energy based on unending amount of time 1 point making a 20% chance of 25 which works out to be 5 energy for every 1 combo point exactly. This removes rng)

    You are not including the energy gained from relentless strikes, using a finisher at 2 combo points will give you an additional 10 energy based on the % rules 40% of the total 25. This will result in 5 energy for every Additional combo point.

    This means that your grid will look something like this

    Refreshing Rec @ 2CP : 48 + 10 - 30 = 28 energy. The actual net gain is 28 energy over 12s

    Refreshing Rec @ 3CP : 72 + 15 - 30 = 57 energy. The actual net gain is 57 energy over 18s e/s

    Refreshing Rec @ 4CP : 96 + 20 - 30 = 86 energy. The actual net gain is 86 energy over 24s

    Refreshing Rec @ 5CP : 120 + 25 - 30 = 115 energy.

    I have posted this information already although your version looks clearer.
    I have omitted Relentless Strikes because you really can't base anything on it. Yes, it will tend to stabilize given enough tries but you can't really use averages to make decisions during a fight. A 2CP finisher is effectively either 0 or 25 energy even if it has a 40% chance to be 25 you can't use that information to decide if you should refresh or delay. The only thing that is actually interesting is that it is a 100% chance on a 5CP Recup wich further proves that waiting for 5CPs is better.

    What we can do in the other hand is work a best-case scenario where you are 100% sure that Relentless Strikes is going to proc and compare the different energy gains :

    Refreshing Rec @ 2CP : 48 + 25 - 30 = 43 energy over 12s or 3.58 e/s

    Refreshing Rec @ 3CP : 72 + 25 - 30 = 67 energy over 18s or 3.72 e/s

    Refreshing Rec @ 4CP : 96 + 25 - 30 = 91 energy over 24s or 3.79 e/s

    Refreshing Rec @ 5CP : 120 + 25 - 30 = 115 energy over 30s or 3.83 e/s

    In such a case (which keep in mind is a best case scenario) you have 2s to build the 3 remaining CPs from a 2-pointer before a 5CP Recup loses it's benefits. So, all in all I'd say : if you have 4CPs just refresh Recup, 2CPs wait for 5, 3CPs is a gray area as you have a 60% chance to proc Relentless Strikes. If it procs you have made the right decision, if it doesn't you would have been better waiting for 5CPs.

    Personal Conclusion (unless someone wants to go deeper in the math) : 4CPs will be the only situation where I refresh Recup without waiting for the 5th point.
    Last edited by DrunkenBeard; 2011-10-02 at 11:26 PM.

  16. #56
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Synexlol View Post
    I don't think there's much point in saying what fights Sub is good/bad on; it's quite obvious anyway. I would say that Combat is the best spec for Beth'tilac with it's cleave for downstairs and incredibly strong cooldowns for upstairs (although Assassination is technically better in P2) too. Subtlety only really 'shines' on Shannox and Baleroc, most other fights are grey areas at best for Subtlety, and I figured people would be able to figure out that Subtlety only really trumps the other specs on stand-still fights for themselves, I shouldn't need to say it.
    In fact, Sub shines on fights where burst is needed, like normal modes on Bethilac and Alysrazor.

    On Beth, you have little time on the boss except for P2, so being able to burst offer greater dps compared to the two other specs that have a ramp up, Sub goes full dps in less than a second.

    On Alysrazor (non-hc), you are assigned to the adds, with very low time on target (add dying fast) and when Alysrazor comes on floor with 100% more damages, this is where ShD+Vanish burst shines, giving you a far more larger dps than Assas/Combat who have a ramp up.

    Baleroc is a stand-still fight where you can fully and perfectly perform your rotation, being able to be on part with Combat/Assas.

    The fact is, Sub is pretty good on fights with lot of target switching (not cleaving, but switching) or low time on target where burst matters the most, and this is what you should add in your guide, what kind of fights Sub benefits more from (fast encounters/lot of target switching/low time on target and high burst requirement/stand-still fight).

    And what I say is that on paper, Sub is a "simple" priority, on field it's nearly impossible to follow any specific paper-rotation, you do things as they come. Sub is not a spec for begginers or people that struggle in improvisation, and this should be noted somewhere, if this guide is really aimed at "begginers" (or new Sub players), so they have a warning that if don't train a lot they might not get good results, at all.

  17. #57
    Deleted
    We have been saying this all along we all know that 5 points is best case if only to remove RNG, but as you have shown there is a viable option.

    I will add this. At the end of the day after 6 mins of fighting a boss, the energy regen from relentless strikes will balance out eventually if you can use 5 point recoups do it, i do and i wont stop any time soon. but if your rotation is about to fail and you need recoup back up and running so you can work on Slice and dice or Eviscerate. Ignore the energy for the most part simply moving on to work on your Slice an dice so that does not go down is what makes it worth it. The energy regen will balance out eventual RNG for the win, but i tell you what i will never let my rupture or slice an dice fall off because of it.

    The maths i have done is the only way of quantifying the % chance mechanic and i feel it is accurate you will have ups and downs its called RNG but the number will always balance because if they don't blizzard coded it wrong and would more than likely fix it.
    Last edited by mmoc88079bcae7; 2011-10-02 at 11:56 PM.

  18. #58
    In a best case scenario it would take over 6 ticks of Recuperate down time (18s) for a 2cp Recuperate to have been an overall gain in energy over a 5pt. It is even longer when you factor in Relentless Strikes. So the point still stands; 5pt Recuperates are best assuming you are not neglecting putting up Recuperate. I don't see where you get 2 seconds from, DrunkenBeard.

    You say that 4cps is the only situation where you wouldn't wait for the 5th point; it takes 1-2 seconds to get 1cp, how is that ~8 energy worth more than the extra 2 ticks you would get from a 5pt recuperate? It's always an overall energy gain to wait for 5th unless you spend anridiculous amount of time with Recuperate down. Or am I mistaken?
    Last edited by Synexlol; 2011-10-02 at 11:55 PM.

  19. #59
    Deleted
    Synexlol Mo chara, I have tried to help you, ignore it all you want i don't care any more.
    Last edited by mmoc88079bcae7; 2011-10-04 at 12:06 AM.

  20. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by Superp View Post
    Synexlol Mo chara, I have tried to help you, ignore it all you want i don't care any more.
    Bhi mé under the assumption that this discussion was actually going somewhere. Oh well.

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