[Moonkin] Guide :: 5.4 Edition

[Keiyra]

Haste > Crit > Mastery > Haste

Crit looks like our second best secondary stat to me. If you read the original statement I replied to it was saying that Mastery is our second best meaning DoC is going to be worse with more gear (more Mastery). It is fairly clear that he was implying that he thought Mastery was good.

And clearly huth's response (and likely Dreyen's intent) is that once you are at your haste soft cap, your stat priority is: Crit>Mastery>more Haste...in which case yes, mastery is your second best secondary post soft cap :P

[Juvencus]

And clearly huth's response (and likely Dreyen's intent) is that once you are at your haste soft cap, your stat priority is: Crit>Mastery>more Haste...in which case yes, mastery is your second best secondary post soft cap :P

With every new drop that gets you closer to BiS you still have to reforge/gem for Haste and Crit. Mastery will almost never increase and it might even get lower as you replace Mastery pieces. Just because Mastery is second after you optimise your gear, it doesn't mean we are actively going for it, making the DoC comment kinda (but not completely) pointless.

[Glurp]

And clearly huth's response (and likely Dreyen's intent) is that once you are at your haste soft cap, your stat priority is: Crit>Mastery>more Haste...in which case yes, mastery is your second best secondary post soft cap :P

Saying Mastery is your second best secondary stat in that context makes sense yes, but was clearly not the context of the original statement. As Juvencus said, the comment about DoCs value decreasing after getting more Mastery is completely pointless if you are following proper stat weights, the only time it would be true is if you are actively trying to stack Mastery.

[Juvencus]

Btw I want to clear something for myself as well as for other people asking.

As far as I know it's DoC that reduces the value of Mastery as it increases point per point and not the other way around, meaning the increase of Mastery is what reduces the power of DoC.

Is this correct? Are they the same thing?

wow, so confuse

[huth]

Saying Mastery is your second best secondary stat in that context makes sense yes, but was clearly not the context of the original statement. As Juvencus said, the comment about DoCs value decreasing after getting more Mastery is completely pointless if you are following proper stat weights, the only time it would be true is if you are actively trying to stack Mastery.

Shouldn't DoC get worse with gear? Considering as mastery is our 2nd best stat after haste cap... each point of mastery makes DoC worse.

Emphasis mine.

[Glurp]

As far as I know it's DoC that reduces the value of Mastery as it increases point per point and not the other way around, meaning the increase of Mastery is what reduces the power of DoC.

Mastery has a reduced value when using DoC and vice versa.

Emphasis mine.

Second best after haste cap meaning Haste (10289) > Mastery > Crit.

Do you even know how to count or is your sole purpose in life just to make arguments over your own stupidity? Read the second part of my post you quoted and it explains even further why your assumption is wrong.

End of topic nothing to see here.

Infracted.

[Juvencus]

Mastery has a reduced value when using DoC and vice versa.

How can both be true? In my head Mastery can't have an effect on DoC because DoC adds a hard 25% bonus on your eclipse bonus damage, while the value of the Mastery stat can by dynamic and it can get lower if you choose DoC.

[Dreyen]

How can both be true? In my head Mastery can't have an effect on DoC because DoC adds a hard 25% bonus on your eclipse bonus damage, while the value of the Mastery stat can by dynamic and it can get lower if you choose DoC.

It's not that the value of mastery goes down with DoC, it's just that crit and haste gets better. Other talents will otherwise still benefit from mastery, so they should theorically get better than DoC the more mastery you get, after a certain point.

And glurp, i obviously meant that mastery is your second best stat after you reached the haste cap. Meaning, crit is still #1, I just thought it was understood since at this tier it's very easy to maintain the haste cap, especially since i'm 576 ilevel : P

[huth]

Second best after haste cap meaning Haste (10289) > Mastery > Crit.

Do you even know how to count or is your sole purpose in life just to make arguments over your own stupidity? Read the second part of my post you quoted and it explains even further why your assumption is wrong.

End of topic nothing to see here.

"After haste cap" means you take a situation where you already have the haste cap(i.e. when haste is the least value stat), not that mastery is directly behind pre-cap haste in value.

Pre-haste-cap(10289):
Haste > Crit > Mastery
Post-haste-cap: (i.e. after haste cap)
Crit > Mastery > Haste

This can also per general community consensus be rendered as Haste (10289) > Crit > Mastery > Haste.

There's also no need for you to be so condescending.

[durrtygoodz]

---snip---

Post constructively and do not insult others. Infracted.

[Glurp]

My apologies about what Dreyen intended, perhaps it's interpreted differently in other countries, second after Haste cap to me implies that Haste is first and Mastery would then be second after Haste

Back to the original question that Dreyen had, more gear wouldn't make DoC worse, the levels of Mastery you'd be looking at would vary no matter what your ilvl is and in some situations could actually go down once you get closer to BiS. Even if you take out the factor of poorly itemized pieces the amount of Mastery you're gaining between 560 and 580 ilvl is very small and wouldn't make a noticeable impact on the value of DoC.

How can both be true? In my head Mastery can't have an effect on DoC because DoC adds a hard 25% bonus on your eclipse bonus damage, while the value of the Mastery stat can by dynamic and it can get lower if you choose DoC.

Both are true because they are essentially the same thing. The value of Mastery decreases when you select DoC as your talent choice therefore stacking Mastery makes DoC less desirable. Slippykins did the maths somewhere but I can't remember where it was and I'm not in the right place to try and explain it because I didn't quite understand it myself. Possibly the search function could be of help to find it, no idea what you'd search to find it though.

[Juvencus]

Both are true because they are essentially the same thing. The value of Mastery decreases when you select DoC as your talent choice therefore stacking Mastery makes DoC less desirable. Slippykins did the maths somewhere but I can't remember where it was and I'm not in the right place to try and explain it because I didn't quite understand it myself. Possibly the search function could be of help to find it, no idea what you'd search to find it though.

Being less desirable I accept and understand and makes sense that the 2 statements are both true. But the last days the phrase "more Mastery makes DoC less powerful" has been thrown around which is what I'm trying to make clear for everyone.

I guess it's an issue of misconception and involves people interpreting "viable" differently...

[Glurp]

"More Mastery makes DoC less powerful compared to other talents" would make more sense. It doesn't say it's going to be worse than other talents because you have more Mastery, it just says it is less desirable because you have more Mastery.

When you actually think about it that entire statement doesn't make much sense and completely irrelevant to actual values and is more like something someone would say just to sound smart, you should probably just forget you ever heard it.

[huth]

Being less desirable I accept and understand and makes sense that the 2 statements are both true. But the last days the phrase "more Mastery makes DoC less powerful" has been thrown around which is what I'm trying to make clear for everyone.

I guess it's an issue of misconception and involves people interpreting "viable" differently...

It doesn't so much make it less powerful as it reduces the gain from it. Since DoC only adds a flat value to your mastery bonus, the damage gain will get lower the more mastery you already have.
(To be precise, if you fix all other stats and vary mastery, the bonus from DoC will stay static)

HotW and NV on the other hand increase your intellect or your entire damage by a percentage, which simply scales up as your intellect or damage increases.
For DoC to have the same effect, it would have to be a multiplier to our Eclipse bonus instead of a flat value that is added to it.

[Lilija]

So my guild is low on hunters and few times we could use 2nd MD and I've been asked few times about the symbiosis one. So I've asked the hunter about some tips on how to use it and we've come to a conclussion that a moonkin is missing a reliable agro generating skill that would be usefull in those 4secs when MD is up (instant SS is RNG, Starfire is slow, Wrath is flyinf, MF/SnF do more dmg after MD is over than at the begining, Starfall I have actually tried and it didn't work well - too random). But maybe we are missing something so I'd like to ask if any of you have used it successfully.

[Stommped]

So my guild is low on hunters and few times we could use 2nd MD and I've been asked few times about the symbiosis one. So I've asked the hunter about some tips on how to use it and we've come to a conclussion that a moonkin is missing a reliable agro generating skill that would be usefull in those 4secs when MD is up (instant SS is RNG, Starfire is slow, Wrath is flyinf, MF/SnF do more dmg after MD is over than at the begining, Starfall I have actually tried and it didn't work well - too random). But maybe we are missing something so I'd like to ask if any of you have used it successfully.

I was able to use it on Tortos and Durumu. Tortos I used it every time bats spawned, this would help if I had Starfall active so they wouldn't aggro on to me instantly if a few stars hit them. On Durumu I messed with our ret paladin for a few pulls and MDed him, was able to get him killed each time without him having RF on. My first question is, how do you know there is a problem? Are you MDing something to the tank that is getting pulled off? I guess I need more specifics on the fight/mob, but typically speaking any threat boost from an MD should be more than enough when combined with his normal tank abilities, even if you don't get a SS proc, thought it would be nice.

[Lilija]

I was able to use it on Tortos and Durumu. Tortos I used it every time bats spawned, this would help if I had Starfall active so they wouldn't aggro on to me instantly if a few stars hit them. On Durumu I messed with our ret paladin for a few pulls and MDed him, was able to get him killed each time without him having RF on. My first question is, how do you know there is a problem? Are you MDing something to the tank that is getting pulled off? I guess I need more specifics on the fight/mob, but typically speaking any threat boost from an MD should be more than enough when combined with his normal tank abilities, even if you don't get a SS proc, thought it would be nice.

I have tried it on Sha od Pride with the small adds but most of them came back to me after MD was ending.

For other situations I haven't really tried but we did discuss it regarding Shreders on Siegecrafter when changed to a tactic where we tanked boss on the opposite side from Shreder's spawn (and it occassionally liked to kill a healer or me). The issue got resolved by tanks moving a bit closer to the add so they were able to attack them before they reached the raid group. Plus we have dropped that tactic anyway as it wasn't working for our raid setup too well.

Anyway, atm it would be more theoretical discussion for cases when tank isn't close enough to what he is grabbing. For example I've tried it few times on heroic Lei Shen so if something bad spawns in a quarter with no tank it went straight to tank on the other platform. Unfortunatly, doing that with a MF was a very bad idea :P - it always came back to me (at that point I haven't read the tooltip and didn't realize it's only 4secs... and later on 2nd hunter showed up on raids ^^). So without much practice the whole concept for moonkin MD feels a bit clunky so I wanted to hear if someone has some good practice with it.

[durrtygoodz]

I've never seen the point in it myself. There are so many other useful symbiosis spells you're missing out on for a really crap threat transfer.

[mzmz]

ty for the guide

[Deleted]

I dont get it: is solar- or lunar-opener right? Are they both close to each other or is it based on the fight and gear? I am a 9/14 hc owl with 573 gs and doing basicly 100% solar opener with inc hotw. Is this wrong/right or depends and what did you guys use and why?

I was under the impression that in 90% of the time both trinkets procc in the first 5 secs. Thats why i use solar. I get confused yesterday in the closed thread because there was so much differently meanings about that topic...