[Official] The Occupy Movement

[Noakh]

It has been shown in some cases that due to the Capital gains tax being so low (much lower than the income tax rate for the middle class), the wealthiest of the wealthy who make most of their money from investment return pay lower taxes than your average middle class American. This was what Warren Buffet spoke out against in his op-ed for the NYT http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/15/op...uper-rich.html . This is, of course, as a percent of total income.

---------- Post added 2011-10-06 at 12:05 PM ----------

PT beat me to it.

[Zecora]

I think the OWS movement is great myself. About time someone shine a torch at the greed-driven machinery that profits from the misery of others. Sure, capitalism's great, but not the uncheckered capitalism that's been instrumental in the current destruction of natural resources and peoples livelyhood.

[Kujako]

Its been said that the left wing need a bunch of crazy people to counter the tea party, I dont know that this is true or helpful.

[ptwonline]

Its been said that the left wing need a bunch of crazy people to counter the tea party, I dont know that this is true or helpful.

Hopefully not crazy people, but the enthusiasm and relentlessness that crazy people can have.

[Munk]

It has been shown in some cases that due to the Capital gains tax being so low (much lower than the income tax rate for the middle class), the wealthiest of the wealthy who make most of their money from investment return pay lower taxes than your average middle class American. This was what Warren Buffet spoke out against in his op-ed for the NYT http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/15/op...uper-rich.html . This is, of course, as a percent of total income.

Alrighty, ty for the info but at the end of the day they are still paying taxes and 15% of a million is far far more than the ~30% of my family's 25k from last year. Understandably Im below what I believe to be the average but even still while it maybe a higher percentage it IS a lower ammount than the wealthy and thats what I dont understand. Why people still claim the rich pay less in taxes than the "poor". Is the burden on my family more than that of the wealthy? Sure but that doesnt justify them having to pay more in year than Ill have to pay out over a decade right?

Its not like the wealthy are driving on the roads 10x more than I am. They arent sending 10x the number of kids to school, or using 10x the ammount of civil services.

Would it be nice to have rich person take up my tax debt to allow me to get out of debt in a year sure, but that doesnt mean its there responsibility to, and it certainly doesnt mean I feel it should be legislated.

As has been previously stated the biggest issue here is people not taking personal responsibility for their actions.

[Kashydan]

love what they are doing, the energy about it, the will to change the current, was on liberty plaza 2 weeks ago to have a chat with the occupants, they were honest-to-heart, determined and eyes-set-on-kickin-ass - i can only continue to wish them the very best to succeed with stirring up something great

[Kujako]

Hopefully not crazy people, but the enthusiasm and relentlessness that crazy people can have.

There is enough crazy to drown out any sane discussion. Much in the same way the person with the Obama as Hitler poster or the "keep the government out of my medicare" signs drown out anything sane the tea party has to say.

[PerfectDarkL33t]

I like seeing that the United States can have a voice again that's not influenced by the people making over seven figures a year, and if it is that they're not taking credit.

[xfloggingkylex]

Alrighty, ty for the info but at the end of the day they are still paying taxes and 15% of a million is far far more than the ~30% of my family's 25k from last year. Understandably Im below what I believe to be the average but even still while it maybe a higher percentage it IS a lower ammount than the wealthy and thats what I dont understand. Why people still claim the rich pay less in taxes than the "poor". Is the burden on my family more than that of the wealthy? Sure but that doesnt justify them having to pay more in year than Ill have to pay out over a decade right?

Its not like the wealthy are driving on the roads 10x more than I am. They arent sending 10x the number of kids to school, or using 10x the ammount of civil services.

Would it be nice to have rich person take up my tax debt to allow me to get out of debt in a year sure, but that doesnt mean its there responsibility to, and it certainly doesnt mean I feel it should be legislated.

As has been previously stated the biggest issue here is people not taking personal responsibility for their actions.

Your rational thoughts aren't welcome here.

[Kalyyn]

I just think it's stupid that they're calling this an occupation. It's a protest. They have absolutely no way of defending that position if somebody tries to remove them by force. In fact, I'm 100% sure that very few of them are willing to defend it. They clearly don't understand what an occupation is.
Its a protest, call it a damn protest.

As for their demands? I feel like they are angry about the right things, but blaming the wrong people. The rich are such an easy scapegoat. The problems that this movement is addressing come from a million different sources, yet these fools have deluded themselves into believing that they come from a single enemy.

[TheRealist]

Lets get something straight here: there is no "movement" here. Its a few thousand people - at most - and a vast majority of them are there because its fashionable and trendy to hate rich people.

Six months from now, it'll be"Occupy what?" Just a bunch of dirty college kids (mostly going to school on the taxpayers dime) and old school hippies trying to relive their glory days.

[ptwonline]

Alrighty, ty for the info but at the end of the day they are still paying taxes and 15% of a million is far far more than the ~30% of my family's 25k from last year. Understandably Im below what I believe to be the average but even still while it maybe a higher percentage it IS a lower ammount than the wealthy and thats what I dont understand. Why people still claim the rich pay less in taxes than the "poor". Is the burden on my family more than that of the wealthy? Sure but that doesnt justify them having to pay more in year than Ill have to pay out over a decade right?

Its not like the wealthy are driving on the roads 10x more than I am. They arent sending 10x the number of kids to school, or using 10x the ammount of civil services.

Would it be nice to have rich person take up my tax debt to allow me to get out of debt in a year sure, but that doesnt mean its there responsibility to, and it certainly doesnt mean I feel it should be legislated.

As has been previously stated the biggest issue here is people not taking personal responsibility for their actions.

A wealthy person drives on a road on his way to a $1M a year job.

You drive on the same road on your way to a $30K a year job.

You both use the road the same amount, but who does it hold more dollar value to? The guy getting $1M. The wealthier you are, the more benefit (dollar-wise) you get from basic safety services, public education of future workers, and infrastructure simply because you can use it to make more money.

As for "personal responsibility"...this implies that you have a degree of control. For a lot of the things going on, people do NOT have control over most of them. How can it be their fault? Is it YOUR fault that banks didn't understand the risk they were taking with credit default swaps, or that credit agencies branded bad investment vehicles with their highest rating, and as a result caused people to lose their otherwise secure careers and now unable to afford their homes that was very affordable previously? No, it's not your fault, and it's not the fault of the masses. It's the fault of greedy, short-sighted people at the top.

---------- Post added 2011-10-06 at 05:21 PM ----------

I just think it's stupid that they're calling this an occupation. It's a protest. They have absolutely no way of defending that position if somebody tries to remove them by force. In fact, I'm 100% sure that very few of them are willing to defend it. They clearly don't understand what an occupation is.
Its a protest, call it a damn protest.

As for their demands? I feel like they are angry about the right things, but blaming the wrong people. The rich are such an easy scapegoat. The problems that this movement is addressing come from a million different sources, yet these fools have deluded themselves into believing that they come from a single enemy.

The rich are not just scapegoats. Some of them are actually to blame. No, not all of them, but there is definitely a group of wealthy Americans who are more and more influencing American politics and society due to the need for money to win elections, and the ability of the wealthy to provide that money and have it paid back many times over through favorable (to them) public policy.

Disclosure: I come from a relatively wealthy home.

[NeftBat]

1. Regulators have been made effectively powerless over many things, thanks to politicians who were successfully lobbied by the people who were meant to be regulated
2. Regulators have become corrupted by the industries they were meant to regulate, mostly because they can be promised cushy private sector jobs by being favorable to them while still in the public sector
3. Since the politicians are already bought, there is little or no political impetus to have more comprehensive regulatory action taken to crack down on the wrongdoing. As a result, the "Wall St reforms" so touted by Obama do almost nothing.

Well wether or not regulations should change is some thing i feel is always up for debate, nothing wrong with that. But if you want to call them corrupt(basically accusing them of a felony) you should have some evidence to back it up. I'll save you some time here, that evidence either doesn't exsist or is well hidden enough that you couldn't produce it.

I agree--Wall St had to be saved. But at the same time some kind of regulations or serious changes needed to be put in place to make sure that they didn't have to get saved like this again. If the gov't has to guarantee banks but few provisions are put in place to make sure they don't fail again, then we'd be better off with banks becoming nationalized so that the taxpayer not only has the risks to pay for, but the profits to make those risks worthwhile.

Furthermore, a large chunk of the economic problem going on right now is because the economic crash and the housing bubble cratered home values, and people either can't make their payments or are underwater in their mortgages. Instead of making banks help out these people by restructuring the mortagages the banks should never have given out in the first place, banks got their help and homeowners are mostly left to struggle on their own.

To be clear I was never for bailing out the banks. The messed up, there should be concequences. But the home owners who signed those loans are also to blame. If you can afford it, which they couldn't, don't buy it. And nationalizing the banks wouldn't have changed anything. Its a bad idea.

I heartily disagree. People weren't financially more astute in previous decades. They had good jobs available and were able to make a decent living at those jobs..

People are still able to make a good living today with decent jobs right here in America.

The rich have become so wealthy and the rest so relatively poor not at the fault of the masses, but because the wealthy control the game. They have strong influence in the policies that allow them pay less and less taxes which ends up gutting services and making everyone else poorer, move jobs offshore without penalty which obviously kills jobs and has been decimating the middle class, get massive subsidies for already strong and profitable industries, reduce regulation and environmental standards for their own profit and with the risks and costs falling on everyone else, and so on.

Protests like OWS is an embryonic attempt to get some more balance restored. To make sure the ordinary folk have a bit more say about the division of wealth in society, and about who gets to make the rules. The rich and their political mouthpieces decry "class warfare", but that's only because they already won the class war and don't want to see it start up again

The wealthy do not control the game. They have access to the exat same rights as anyone else. They also pay the vast majority of taxes. They have every right to move jobs off shore as well. It is not thier responsibilty to provide you a job. Never has been and never should be. Nor is it the governments for that matter. I dont know why you are trying to demonize the 'wealthy'. It makes no sense. They did not cause the financial hardship in your life(being general here, not you specifically) and they arent responsible for it either.

The wealthy make a lot of their income in capital gains. Capital gains are taxed at a lower rate than most personal taxation rates. Capital gains (often not true investment but simply funneling money in and out so that it gets counted as Capital Gains) are one of the creative ways that the wealthy shelter their income from taxes, and end up paying much lower effective rates than they would be otherwise.

No, not all the rich pay lower taxes. Not all of them get every kind of tax shelter, and some earn their money in ways not as easy to shelter. However, for the mega-rich in particular, their tax rates tend to be suprisingly low

Anything cited as capital gains remains in the company. If they take it out it becomes income and they would be taxed just like everyone else. There isnt a special tax code for the 'rich'. Its the same tax code we all adbide by. And if you want to say the dont play by the rules(which again is a felony) you better be able to prove it.
And again, the top 1% pays the vaste majority of taxes in this country.

---------- Post added 2011-10-06 at 12:30 PM ----------

As for "personal responsibility"...this implies that you have a degree of control. For a lot of the things going on, people do NOT have control over most of them. How can it be their fault?

Oh thats just a blatant lie. You cant tell me you are in a bad financail position now and it not be your fault. I mean come on. Bad things do happen. But the majority of bad things are nullified with some actuall fiscal planning, which to many people dont do, and the ones that arent are certainly rare and not something that afflicts everyone. The idea that the rich are to blame is just BS. If you want to claim some rich guy commited a felony you better have the evidence. Now if you want to also claim that rich guy is the soul source of anyones financail hardship, wel.... good luck with that one.

[Munk]

PTW,

Clearly in the situation you've outlined in raw dollar value clearly the wealthy would lose more from not getting to work because of an issue on the road however how much is debatable especially considering that the general idea held by most is that wealthy people contribute nothing of value to society.

Its like talking out of both sides of your mouth.

On the right side we say "rich people are the debil and do nothing". On the other we say they are responsible for all society's woe's.

I DO Think that there are SOME who are responsible and they should be held accountable but I think its unfair to just lump that responsibility as a whole on "the rich/wealthy". Ive always held the belief that if I work hard and find a way to be innovative that I can be at any point in time anything I want to be in the US. I dont see any point in just blaming others.

Lets be real here, lets say you DID redistribute the wealth by enforcing flat percentage based taxes on all forms of income/gains. What really would it change? OK so the govt would have more tax funds to spend horribly and drive us further in debt. I dont think you could find ANYONE in DC who would be willing to sign a bill that states EVERY penny of higher taxes will go to paying down the national debt which is the cause of many of the issues, as its constantly devalued the dollar which is why our wages are viewed as not being a living wage.

Ive said it before and I will likely say it again. Im not an economist, my college econ courses hurt my brain and im not going to claim im great with money but to my layman's brain it makes sense to me that at the end of the day this whole issue has been and remains to be a problem of EVERYONE not assuming personal responsibility and lack of willingness to make hard decisions.

I think by and large people pointing fingers at the wealthy is just a quick excuse that doesnt explore the problem as a whole as the issue is more complex than just one group of people doing one thing or rather not doing one thing.

It also stands to reason you dont take money from the businesses trying to be as effecient as possible and give it to the single worst managed business in the country (the US federal Govt).

[Kujako]

Oh thats just a blatant lie. You cant tell me you are in a bad financail position now and it not be your fault. I mean come on. Bad things do happen. But the majority of bad things are nullified with some actuall fiscal planning, which to many people dont do, and the ones that arent are certainly rare and not something that afflicts everyone.

Yea, people are always wasting their money on food and rent when they should be investing in a sound fiscal portfolio.

[Zecora]

Lets get something straight here: there is no "movement" here. Its a few thousand people - at most - and a vast majority of them are there because its fashionable and trendy to hate rich people.

Six months from now, it'll be"Occupy what?" Just a bunch of dirty college kids (mostly going to school on the taxpayers dime) and old school hippies trying to relive their glory days.

Yes, and all Tea Party members are right-wing nutjobs who thinks god speaks to them, the vast majority are part of it because it's trendy to hate liberals. Stereotyping is so much fun, isn't it? ...oh, wait, oops...I left my /sarcasm button on.

It is too early to say how the OWS movement will develop. We could see it flounder completely, grow to be the "tea party" of the "left", or even see it grow to become a true revolution. It's simply too early to say for sure.

[NeftBat]

PTW,

Clearly in the situation you've outlined in raw dollar value clearly the wealthy would lose more from not getting to work because of an issue on the road however how much is debatable especially considering that the general idea held by most is that wealthy people contribute nothing of value to society.

Its like talking out of both sides of your mouth.

On the right side we say "rich people are the debil and do nothing". On the other we say they are responsible for all society's woe's.

I DO Think that there are SOME who are responsible and they should be held accountable but I think its unfair to just lump that responsibility as a whole on "the rich/wealthy". Ive always held the belief that if I work hard and find a way to be innovative that I can be at any point in time anything I want to be in the US. I dont see any point in just blaming others.

Lets be real here, lets say you DID redistribute the wealth by enforcing flat percentage based taxes on all forms of income/gains. What really would it change? OK so the govt would have more tax funds to spend horribly and drive us further in debt. I dont think you could find ANYONE in DC who would be willing to sign a bill that states EVERY penny of higher taxes will go to paying down the national debt which is the cause of many of the issues, as its constantly devalued the dollar which is why our wages are viewed as not being a living wage.

Ive said it before and I will likely say it again. Im not an economist, my college econ courses hurt my brain and im not going to claim im great with money but to my layman's brain it makes sense to me that at the end of the day this whole issue has been and remains to be a problem of EVERYONE not assuming personal responsibility and lack of willingness to make hard decisions.

I think by and large people pointing fingers at the wealthy is just a quick excuse that doesnt explore the problem as a whole as the issue is more complex than just one group of people doing one thing or rather not doing one thing.

It also stands to reason you dont take money from the businesses trying to be as effecient as possible and give it to the single worst managed business in the country (the US federal Govt).

Bingo, somebody gets it.

And as a side note if wealth were redistributed evenly it would just end up back in the same hands as it is now with enough time. People who plan and make smart fiscal decisions will over the long run have more money then those who dont. Thats all it takes really.

[Munk]

Yea, people are always wasting their money on food and rent when they should be investing in a sound fiscal portfolio.

I think the point is more "how much alcohol, cigarettes, and other forms of entertainment" do you needlessly waste money on? If your poor, why are you eating at McDonalds every meal instead of packing a lunch?

Truthfully ive never had MUCH but I can tell you that i've wasted a LOT of what I have had. Normally I justify it to myself by saying I dont get the same kind of treats I would otherwise have if I had been served a better hand but in reality I just did it to feel a little bit better about my life. In reality if I had the wisdom to not waste I could theoretically be in a vastly different situation right now.

[NeftBat]

Yea, people are always wasting their money on food and rent when they should be investing in a sound fiscal portfolio.

Life happens. You need to plan for that. No excuse. And dont even go there lol. If you think everyone but the top 1% spend all thier money on food and rent you are very very mistaken.
ETA poor(being relative here) people do tend to spend to much in those categories.

[Kujako]

I think the point is more "how much alcohol, cigarettes, and other forms of entertainment" do you needlessly waste money on? If your poor, why are you eating at McDonalds every meal instead of packing a lunch?

Because due to subsidies McDonald's is cheaper and you simply dont have any money to spare?

I know its hard to grasp, but there are families in this country who live on less then five thousand dollars per person a year. Telling them they should just be more fiscally responsable is exactly why they get pissed off.