[Official] The Occupy Movement

[NeutralGuy]

I'll address you both to save time.

Opportunity is not created, nor does it exist in equal measure in all places. Nor are all people equally capable in all measures. Costs of living and income are drastically different between any two places in the USA. Moving is incredibly expensive and simply dropping everything to move somewhere where there is the POSSIBILITY of employment is simply not a viable option.

While your "magic pill" solution may work in some instances, it's hardly universally the right answer. Even if it was, there are a finite amount of McDonalds jobs and that number is a heck lot lower than the number of people looking for work.

There is numerous ways of being successful. Problem is most people are not willing to do the work involved in getting there. Then they become bitter and start to point fingers at those that have more success then them.

Military
Scholarships
Work your way up by having one job for more then 5years...
STUDENT LOANS

plenty of other ways to have a successful life that honestly people are just too lazy to do

[Dacien]

Assuming meritocracy to be desirable, then we want a system that adheres to it as closely as possible.

And western European welfare is an example of this?

When your car needs the wheels aligned do you scrap it and just walk everywhere? And fears of welfare fraud in the US are grossly overblown.

I've never met a man (or woman) who's not bragged about being on welfare like it was some kind of free ride. And I've known quite a number of people on some form of welfare during the last 10 years or so. It's supposed to help people get back on their feet, but I've never seen it being used as such. Anecdotal, I know, but any study on welfare fraud would only show those who've been caught; and those'd probably be the most egregious cases which is how they got caught. Not the type I describe who don't qualify as bonafide "fraud", but are cheeseballing the system, and the taxpayer, nonetheless.

[Wells]

And western European welfare is an example of this?

Depends on how you measure meritocracy in real terms.

I think social mobility is an excellent indicator.

So what you're saying is there is no evidence for you claim and there can't be. Right.

[Dacien]

So what you're saying is there is no evidence for you claim and there can't be. Right.

A man only knows what he sees. I'll stand behind UI, but that's about it.

[ptwonline]

And western European welfare is an example of this?




I've never met a man (or woman) who's not bragged about being on welfare like it was some kind of free ride. And I've known quite a number of people on some form of welfare during the last 10 years or so. It's supposed to help people get back on their feet, but I've never seen it being used as such. Anecdotal, I know, but any study on welfare fraud would only show those who've been caught; And those'd probably be the most egregious cases which is how they got caught. Not the type I describe, who don't qualify as bonafide "fraud", but are cheeseballing the system, and the taxpayer, nonetheless.

I've known a lot of people on welfare (one of my best friends seems attracted to the lower-echelons of society because she used to live on the streets, so I get introduced that way). Some are indeed proud of how they can game the system, or feel some sort of entitlement. These are generally the long-term poor with bad parenting, little education, and poor work ethic. However, I've also known many people who had to take it for shorter periods of time. They were not proud of it. They didn't openly advertise it because they felt ashamed. They used it the way it was envisioned: a temporary relief measure so that people could get back on their feet.

The people abusing it and bragging about vs the people using it properly and staying quiet about it creates a false sense of the actual kind of use and abuse of welfare.

As for my friend? She was kicked out of her home at 16 because her new mother-in-law (her biological mother was murdered) resented the kids from her husband's previous marriage. She got married but was abused and forced to work as a prostitute by her first husband, who also got her addicted to drugs. She lived that lifestyle for about 10 years before getting out of it, and then had to rely on welfare for about 6 more years before she could get herself straightened out emotionally, get more education, and finally move on with her life. She has now been working for 3 straight years and never wants to go back to welfare ever again. This is the kind of person and the kind of change that can be created by having a social safety net for those in society at greatest risk and in greatest need.

[Dacien]

I've known a lot of people on welfare (one of my best friends seems attracted to the lower-echelons of society because she used to live on the streets, so I get introduced that way). Some are indeed proud of how they can game the system, or feel some sort of entitlement. These are generally the long-term poor with bad parenting, little education, and poor work ethic. However, I've also known many people who had to take it for shorter periods of time. They were not proud of it. They didn't openly advertise it because they felt ashamed. They used it the way it was envisioned: a temporary relief measure so that people could get back on their feet.

The people abusing it and bragging about vs the people using it properly and staying quiet about it creates a false sense of the actual kind of use and abuse of welfare.

As for my friend? She was kicked out of her home at 16 because her new mother-in-law (her biological mother was murdered) resented the kids from her husband's previous marriage. She got married but was abused and forced to work as a prostitute by her first husband, who also got her addicted to drugs. She lived that lifestyle for about 10 years before getting out of it, and then had to rely on welfare for about 6 more years before she could get herself straightened out emotionally, get more education, and finally move on with her life. She has now been working for 3 straight years and never wants to go back to welfare ever again. This is the kind of person and the kind of change that can be created by having a social safety net for those in society at greatest risk and in greatest need.

I'm behind this, I just don't like the government taking my money and handing it out to people who're just working the system. It infuriates me.

I don't think you're stating anything conservative or liberal here. You're stating fact, and I side with you in that capitalism overall is beneficial. And I don't think you're attacking poor people.

However, I think you can agree that people at the top have abused their standing in wealth to have the government paid off for their own benefit. I won't say they're evil for doing so, because I believe they were only acting in their best interests. That's their jobs. The problem is that their interests

I want both government and lobbyists to discuss laws/regulations based on how they benefit the people of this country, not the ones pushing for the legislation. Hear the lobbyists out, as you should, and we allow in this country. But then, as lawmakers, make the decision on who this would benefit. If it's not beneficial to all(or most?) Americans, don't make it law. I know it's more complicated than that, but IMO using that kind of approach to lawmaking is what I believe to be the foundation of this country.

Well, it's like I've been saying, these occupy people aren't going to get anything done shaking their fist at Wall Street or the banks. They need to push for changes in their government if they don't like what's going on.

[Sunseeker]

No economic system will ever be a "magic pill". It's much too complex an issue to ever be %100 perfect. But it's the best system we have. Hell, even China got on board.

Working at McDonalds for half a decade isn't an "economic system". I don't have an issue with capitalism IN THEORY. I have a problem with the way it's executed IRL.

people are just too lazy to do

I'm sorry, but we're just going to keep going in circles. I refuse to entertain the idea that everyone who is poor is so and deserves it because they're simply lazy.

[NeutralGuy]

Working at McDonalds for half a decade isn't an "economic system". I don't have an issue with capitalism IN THEORY. I have a problem with the way it's executed IRL.



I'm sorry, but we're just going to keep going in circles. I refuse to entertain the idea that everyone who is poor is so and deserves it because they're simply lazy.

You're right... being handed everything to you on a silver platter the moment you leave high school is the ideal economic system. If you can't work one job for 5 years you're freaking lazy.

[Sunseeker]

You're right... being handed everything to you on a silver platter the moment you leave high school is the ideal economic system. If you can't work one job for 5 years you're freaking lazy.

Again, I haven't said anything to this end. You can pull your fingers out of yours ears any time now.

[Deleted]

I think social mobility is an excellent indicator.

Absolute social mobility for different wealth percentiles may be a good indicator. Relative social mobility is not a good indicator.

I'd say countries like France are certainly not one's you want to emulate.

[Dacien]

President Obama has said he stands behind the Occupy Movement. However, he's down here in Southern California to accept big checks from the top 1%.

[bergmann620]

My father in law could probably be considered to be at the poverty level. He works in a restaurant. Same job since he was 22(he's 53 now). He works 50-60 hours a week. Crappy hours, horrible health insurance. He's the hardest working guy I know. I'm a programmer, went to college, and make 3 times as much as him. I don't work anywhere close to as hard as him.

I look at him, and I look at myself, and sometimes I feel guilty that I can make more working less.

I know this is anecdotal, but you'd be surprised at the multitude of people that work hard and live within their means that are not rich at all. He loves his life, he's proud of his hard work. But he's nowhere even near rich.

I'm not advocating any kind of change in capitalism or nonsense like that. I'm just simply asking that you not quantify hard work with monetary wealth.

Your father-in-law is either an illegal, an idiot, or a victim of your hyperbole. You do know that the federal poverty line is in the neighborhood of $12K, right? And by your numbers, he's making $23K+ even if he's still making minimum wage after 30 years?

If he's even making $10 an hour (still more than terrible w/ 30 years of service, thats in the range of $33K a year... Or more 150% of what I make, and I more than get by.

There may be no hard, fast, line to be drawn between hard work, responsibility, and wealth, but there is a VERY high correlation. I'm still sticking with the 'work hard and save money' approach over the 'buy some weed, work fast food jobs for a couple months at a time, play a bunch of XBOX' plan.

---------- Post added 2011-10-25 at 02:39 PM ----------

President Obama has said he stands behind the Occupy Movement. However, he's down here in Southern California to accept big checks from the top 1%.

Collect money from the 1% to buy votes from the 99%.

Sounds like a solid plan to me.

[bergmann620]

How about you save the ad hominem about a man I respect tremendously. He makes about 30K a year. I wasn't aware the poverty level was that low, so that's my mistake. And no, he's not an idiot or an illegal. He loves what he does. And he works hard at it.

He owns his home, cars, raised 2 daughters. Frankly, you can kiss my ass. I don't care if I get infracted, tough guy bullshit like what you said deserves no place ANYWHERE.

It doesn't change the fact that he works twice as hard as me and makes 3 times as little, doing what he loves doing.

<-- is scared.

By a lack of reading comprehension.

If he owns his own home, cars, makes 30k a year, etc, he is CLEARLY no where near the poverty line, which you referenced in abject ignorance.

You also missed the part where I said "or a victim of your hyperbole." Which is the one it turns out to be. I don't care if you get infracted, either. I just wish people would educate themselves about the terms they use and the claims they make before spouting inane BS.

Maybe you should sit down and have a talk with him some time and ask him what is more important- making 3x more than someone, or the pride and satisfaction of working hard, living within your means, and raising a family doing something you love?

[Dacien]

Stockholm syndrome ftw

I think that's a bit hyperbolic. We're no more slaves to the bankers than we are slaves to our jobs or slaves to the bills that come in the mail. This is the world we live in, and once in a while bad things happen because of bad people. Same as anywhere else.

[Deleted]

You do realise that the fat bankers, as evil as they are, are actually keeping up the economy and the OWS is a movement based on frustration and, mostly, ignorance and, should it be successful, it would sink the economy so low even the devil will have to dig for it.

But hey, if you just wanna get drunk in a pub and chant some crap in the street and think I'm doing something about it, sure.

The sky shan't crash down when the economy does so. This 'fear' as I'd like to call it for the collapse of the economy (Has anyone being paying attention to how 'supposedly' well we're of by it not crashing?) is a wonderful way to keep everyone in line. Nice and tidy. I'm pretty sure we won't all stop breathing the instant that the economy seizes to work (One could argue we're already there.), nor will we get a heart-attack when our bank collapses.

[Huntaer]

they complain about bankers ruining everything.
they forget, that it's the same bankers who create jobs for people to work.

[Dacien]

The sky shan't crash down when the economy does so. This 'fear' as I'd like to call it for the collapse of the economy (Has anyone being paying attention to how 'supposedly' well we're of by it not crashing?) is a wonderful way to keep everyone in line. Nice and tidy. I'm pretty sure we won't all stop breathing the instant that the economy seizes to work (One could argue we're already there.), nor will we get a heart-attack when our bank collapses.

A true economic collapse would be catastrophic.

[Deleted]

they complain about bankers ruining everything.
they forget, that it's the same bankers who create jobs for people to work.

Oh, so before there were banks, there were no jobs! We need to rewrite the history books!

A true economic collapse would be catastrophic.

Subjective, I am equally right in saying it would be the most wonderful event that could come to pass. It's a matter of what you value and what you do with that.

[Dacien]

Oh, so before there were banks, there were no jobs! We need to rewrite the history books!

Before there were banks the world was a much different place. They're an intrinsic part of the global economy now.

[Rugz]

I can understand their plight, knowing that it's our money mostly that was bailing out the banks and they still act fiscally irresponsible. Also knowing that the owners of said banks own more money than all of us combined, and squared (citation needed). The average person has had a decreasing quality of life for the past 30 years, while the select few have had a an exponentially increasing quality. I'm not too good at just starting off debates like this, so I'll let you guys take the floor.

I would support the movement, maybe, if the people doing it all subscribed to this idea and weren't just a bunch of bandwagoning, hippie, student communists. In some ways it reminds me of the rioters in London saying:

'We're doing this to show the rich people that we can do what we want.'

I could probably get behind them if they had some overarching coherent suggestions but most of them seem to just be anti-capitalists who don't understand that the people at the top being potentially fiscally irresponsible started in the same position as them but worked for it. They aren't offering up anything in exchange and it's pretty much a guarantee that half the people out there will be out there next year protesting against things like slowed growth and lack of investment after they force the banks to vacuum seal their wallets.

Oh, so before there were banks, there were no jobs! We need to rewrite the history books!

By all means you can petition your government to go back to trading in cows, sheep, chickens and women.