New new warrior 4PC T13

[eErike]

Good god this must be a troll.

Let me go kiddie math on you for a second so that you can see exactly what we're talking about here.

CS lasts 6 seconds.
You start a fight using CS and then casting BT right after.
There's a 1.5 sec GCD between the two.
6-1.5=4.5
CS procs from 4 pc
You refreshed CS when there was still 4.5 seconds left on it's duration, bumping it to (6+1.5) 7.5 seconds. You GAINED 1.5 seconds of CS uptime.
You lost 4.5 seconds of TOTAL CS uptime.

the difference is 3 seconds of CS uptime which you lost.

If you want just numbers (Seeing as your avatar is a calculator, which you seem to know how to use but not interpret):
6=6
4 Pc proc
6-4.5=1.5 (You lost 4.5 seconds due to clipping)
1.5+6=7.5


Do you understand now? Please for the love of god tell me you understand this simple ass concept.

One should read page two before they read page 3, mister Laundry seems to be on the right page and calculator something is lost, sorry about that dirty clothes

I have 6 bars of candy that I'm going to eat. When I've eaten 1.5 bars mom comes over and sais "Oh, you are eating candy, well I've heard that those candybars are not good for you, so I will take the remaining bars (4.5) and switch them out for these 6 bars that are equaly good tasting and the exact same size".

Tell me where I've lost any candy just because mom didn't walk by when i had eaten those bars instead of while I was eating them?

Yepp, you got ciddymath'd.

Edit: Perhaps I could have gotten another 4.5 bars, but why would you whine abouts oemthing free?

Got another one =D
Kinda school example but I'm bored.

You plan on buying something and there was a 70% sale last week but now it's only 20% off. Have you lost any money or did you not save as much as you could have?

[cutterx2202]

Um, no where did I say that if I had a choice I would prefer it to proc within a current CS. BOTH situations (1:where it procs within a CS, and 2: where it procs outside a CS) are a dps GAIN over no 4pc proc at all. There is no drawback to the pc. There is no clipping compared to the base situation.

Would you prefer a proc to add time on to a current CS? Of course you would. Was that ever an option? No.

[eErike]

There is no drawback to the pc. There is no clipping compared to the base situation.

Yes there is some clipping. We don't say that it's a bad bonus, it just have some possebilitys to clip.

[cutterx2202]

No, it's not a bad bonus and there's absolutely NO negative effects on dps by having it in ANY circumstance. That's what some people seem to not understand. There is also no damage loss if it does happen inside another CS. If you compare a proc inside a CS and a proc outside a CS, yes, the second is preferred more and may produce more damage, but both are gains in dps. No damage is lost by either.

[eErike]

No, it's not a bad bonus and there's absolutely NO negative effects on dps by having it in ANY circumstance. That's what some people seem to not understand. There is also no damage loss if it does happen inside another CS. If you compare a proc inside a CS and a proc outside a CS, yes, the second is preferred more and may produce more damage, but both are gains in dps. No damage is lost by either.

So you do admit that it might be some clipping?
because you didn't two pages ago :S

[akts]

No, it's not a bad bonus and there's absolutely NO negative effects on dps by having it in ANY circumstance.

It's called loss of profit. Outside of CS debuff you gain 6 extra seconds of ArP. If your CS becomes availabe you delay it and get another 6 seconds afterwards.
But INSIDE cs debuff you gain only fraction of 6 second debuff, to a minimum of 1.5 seconds gain. Hence you can call 4.5s loss of potential CS uptime. You still gain something but not as much as you could.

[Laundry]

So you do admit that it might be some clipping?
because you didn't two pages ago :S

thank god someone gets it. Now then,

Do you see why this argument even came up cutterx? You put words in my mouth. I never said there was a negative effect. I speaking about the difference in damage between the two scenarios. If you take the best possible scenario (Chaining 2 CS's together 6 sec x2) and subtract the total damage you would do with the unfavorable scenario (clipping the first CS 1.5 seconds in with a 4 PC proc), the difference is the amount of damage you COULD HAVE DONE.

that means, by clipping out the first cs you lost that extra damage. You didn't lose any initial damage, that's given. Do you see what I mean by "your point is contained in mine but you're incapable of seeing it?"

[Deleted]

Yeah idd it looks really great now, compared to before.

[ZeroEdgeir]

Clipping implies YOU have control over when it happens. A proc is outside of your hands to control.

Let's compare it to the old Berserking enchant. It was pretty much up constantly. Though hey, it was possible to NOT have it proc for a short period of time. Generally though, you clipped it left and right. Did you complain that you didn't get maximum length of the buff because of the clipping? No. Cause that is how it worked. This is the same thing basically.

Will it likely refresh a new CS over the old one before it wears off? Yeah, it'll happen. Will it proc RIGHT as you go to hit CS and get you no gain at all? Yup, willing to bet money on that too. Will it line up perfectly and chain the length of CS properly as everyone wants to have happen in a perfect world? Yes, it sure will, at times.

Comparing no bonus vs with bonus, no matter WHEN it procs (short of off the MS/BT right before you goto hit CS and you waste your CS), it is a pure gain in damage output. Is it the most OPTIMIZED damage gain? Not always. But regardless of WHEN it happens, it is a gain. End of story.

If you could control WHEN it happens with 100% certainty (like re-applying Rend before it wears off to get the most damage per GCD/Rage cost possible), then yes, you could clip the CS Debuff. But guess what? You got no control over WHEN a proc happens.

[cutterx2202]

There is no clipping. Clipping would be losing possible damage. You don't lose any damage by it procing in a CS.

Your scenario (a 4pc that only procs only outside when you don't have a cs buff up) is a made up 4pc bonus that never existed, so why even talk about it, since this thread is about the current 4pc?

Also, in your made up 4pc, that would be a loss compared to the current one. The current one would provide more uptime than one that only procs outside of cs.

[Laundry]

Zero I'm not sure you read the past 3 pages of information before making that post. Go back and read again. Then again, you sound exactly like cutter so maybe you made another account to post the same thing and boost your own numbers? Either way, the things you mentioned are the exact same things I did, but you're not understanding at all what I was stating.

There is no clipping. Clipping would be losing possible damage. You don't lose any damage by it procing in a CS.

Your scenario (a 4pc that only procs only outside when you don't have a cs buff up) is a made up 4pc bonus that never existed, so why even talk about it, since this thread is about the current 4pc?

Also, in your made up 4pc, that would be a loss compared to the current one. The current one would provide more uptime than one that only procs outside of cs.

you have absolutely no idea how the new 4pc works, nor know how to read what everyone else has said. Absolutely no fucking clue. Stop typing.

[Swaggah]

It's only a loss if you use your 20s CS during a BT proc CS, which only relies on your own stupidity

If it procs during your 20s CS it's less dps then if it procced outside, but it no has negative impact on your procs later on. So it doesnt affect anything
It really doesn't, it just procced there. It doesnt mean it cant proc on the next BT as well

[cutterx2202]

Clipping implies YOU have control over when it happens. A proc is outside of your hands to control.

Let's compare it to the old Berserking enchant. It was pretty much up constantly. Though hey, it was possible to NOT have it proc for a short period of time. Generally though, you clipped it left and right. Did you complain that you didn't get maximum length of the buff because of the clipping? No. Cause that is how it worked. This is the same thing basically.

Will it likely refresh a new CS over the old one before it wears off? Yeah, it'll happen. Will it proc RIGHT as you go to hit CS and get you no gain at all? Yup, willing to bet money on that too. Will it line up perfectly and chain the length of CS properly as everyone wants to have happen in a perfect world? Yes, it sure will, at times.

Comparing no bonus vs with bonus, no matter WHEN it procs (short of off the MS/BT right before you goto hit CS and you waste your CS), it is a pure gain in damage output. Is it the most OPTIMIZED damage gain? Not always. But regardless of WHEN it happens, it is a gain. End of story.

If you could control WHEN it happens with 100% certainty (like re-applying Rend before it wears off to get the most damage per GCD/Rage cost possible), then yes, you could clip the CS Debuff. But guess what? You got no control over WHEN a proc happens.

This guy must be a genious...

---------- Post added 2011-10-08 at 08:48 PM ----------

It's only a loss if you use your 20s CS during a BT proc CS, which only relies on your own stupidity

If it procs during your 20s CS it's less dps then if it procced outside, but it no has negative impact on your procs later on. So it doesnt affect anything
It really doesn't, it just procced there. It doesnt mean it cant proc on the next BT as well

This guy must be smart as hell, too. That or we all just have the ability to read the bonus for what it is.

[akts]

If you could control WHEN it happens with 100% certainty (like re-applying Rend before it wears off to get the most damage per GCD/Rage cost possible), then yes, you could clip the CS Debuff. But guess what? You got no control over WHEN a proc happens.

You have. You can CS RB SL BT for example, so no way you will clip more than 1.5 seconds. But ofc that's silly.

It seems the whole buzz is about comparing the old (RB-based) bonus and the new (BT-base). Well, the new bonus seems to be slightly worse for fury because the rotation was supposed to be CS BT RB BT. So you had 13% chance to clip 3 seconds with the old bonus, but you have now 6% to clip 4.5 seconds AND another 6% chance to clip 1.5 seconds.

The funny thing is that old bonus has HIGHER average clipping of initial CS. (the new bous can chain-clip however)

[cutterx2202]

Don't think of it as clipping, because there's nothing negative about it. It refreshes the duration if it's within a CS - and that's not bad. Terminology is everything.

[ZeroEdgeir]

Zero I'm not sure you read the past 3 pages of information before making that post. Go back and read again. Then again, you sound exactly like cutter so maybe you made another account to post the same thing and boost your own numbers? Either way, the things you mentioned are the exact same things I did, but you're not understanding at all what I was stating.

I read all 3 past pages. I understand exactly HOW this proc works. What everyone, both your side and cutter's side, is arguing about, is literally a waste fo breath.

Your side basically states it is an overall damage loss, cause the stars don't align to ensure that the 4pc proc only occurs outside of normal CS uptime to allow maximum uptime of the debuff. But you are also okay with it overlapping, despite it being an overall loss.

Cutter's side is basically saying the same my post is: It's gonna overlap some times, it won't others. That is it.

At no point did I, or Cutter, state it was BETTER for it to overlap. Yes, it would be GREAT if it never overlapped, and would only apply if CS was not up, or even better, just ADDED an extra 6 sec to the duration of CS if it applied during an existing one. The problem there would bring us 100% back to Wrath, where Warriors would almost assuredly have a 100% uptime of 100% armor ignorance. Blizzard is trying to avoid that as much as possible (given that CS is one of only 2 abilities/talents I know of off the top of my head that bypass ANY armor at all).

This set bonus gives you increased uptime of CS. Which is a big gain in damage, be it for 1.5sec per proc, all 6sec per proc, or anywhere between. It's the same as any other PROC. It will happen when RNG choses to. You can't really say "Oh, it should work this way, not random at all." and expect it to. This design is likely the most balanced option Blizzard had for it.

[Laundry]

I never said "oh it should work this way."

You're also saying something that I have been for the past 2 or 3 pages now. Cutter's point is within mine and he FAILS MISERABLY at seeing it. I never EVER stated that cutter's belief was that the proc was better to overlap.

Your side basically states it is an overall damage loss, cause the stars don't align to ensure that the 4pc proc only occurs outside of normal CS uptime to allow maximum uptime of the debuff. But you are also okay with it overlapping, despite it being an overall loss.

If you get that, then why can't he? He seems to think I made up a scenario that doesn't exists, and he even exclaimed that it didn't exist. Do you see what he's frustrating me beyond belief, and do you see why his skull is about 7 inches thick?

[akts]

Don't think of it as clipping, because there's nothing negative about it. It refreshes the duration if it's within a CS - and that's not bad. Terminology is everything.

Duh. Just compare the gain from 13%@RB bonus and 6%@BT and see the negative effect. (Not that it will be huge)

And personally I like the new bonus. RB is not always available, BT is just better, reliable, sexier.

[Swaggah]

Wait, so you guys are arguing that IF the 4pc was different, current 4pc is a dps loss?

[Laundry]

No. What zero said about CS uptimes is the correct argument. Cutter seems to think that I made up a scenario that can't happen, which, in fact, it can.

EDIT: Better yet, cutter seems to think that I think they should change the 4pc to only proc when CS isnt up ont he target, which i never stated at all. I have no idea where he got the idea when my argument states that the 4PC has the potential to clip the initial application of CS. that was it. that's all my argument was.

Apparently he doesnt like the word clipping when that's exactly what it is. it CLIPS 4.5 seconds off of the initial application, but i never said you lose the inital damage, just the extra damage. It's a DPS gain whatever way you look at it, but the secnario I presented gives more.