Balance game around 1v1

[sandmoth12]

Soo.. If one DPS can bring down a healer by himself, what about a 3v3 scenario? Think about how fast people would die.

We'll healers are the only special case if you were to consider balancing the game around 1v1. You are correct no single dps should be able to kill a healer 1v1 QUICKLY. But should 1 dps be able to kill a healer after running them completely oom? I believe thats fair.

So healers would die slowly to any class 1v1 yet also in the range of being bursted down by more than 1 player.

[Shanto94]

To put it simple, it won't work like that.
Simply, only way to make it equally balanced in every aspect of the game is to remove classes and add only 1 class.
Lets say that a warrior had an equal chance to take any other class as any other class had an equal chance to take him. Now, that would mean 1v1 is totally balanced.
But, since every class isnt the same, what would happend in 2v2 is that you combine the strength off two classes to cover the weaknesses off them, now you got unbalanced 2v2.

[sandmoth12]

As I said before balancing 1v1 just cant be done with wow's combat system. At its core it assumes that not every class can do everythign equaly well and needs other classes to cover its weak points. The only way to balance 1v1 would require scraping the whole system and starting fresh and there is just no way bliz will do that. I'm sorry to say your going to just have to look for a different game if you want 1v1 balance. Try looking into GW2 as its design philosophy is more fitting to every class having a fighting chance against any other class 1v1.

While I do believe in 1v1 balance I also believe there should still be some element of rock, paper, scissors. So I guess I believe in a rough 1v1 balance system with soft counters but no hard counters just so it's still a mmo with classes and not a FPS where everyone is the same.

[Deleted]

Nope. Will not.

5v5 =/= 5*(1v1)

40v40 (alterac) =/= 40*(1v1)

exactly my idea

[GrieverXIII]

Heard Street Fighter is a pretty good 1v1 PvP game.

[sandmoth12]

To put it simple, it won't work like that.
Simply, only way to make it equally balanced in every aspect of the game is to remove classes and add only 1 class.
Lets say that a warrior had an equal chance to take any other class as any other class had an equal chance to take him. Now, that would mean 1v1 is totally balanced.
But, since every class isnt the same, what would happend in 2v2 is that you combine the strength off two classes to cover the weaknesses off them, now you got unbalanced 2v2.

Yeah I have heard of this problem. In wow 2v2...2 plus 2 doesn't always equal 4. If the classes have good synergy 2+2=5. However, this can be solved with synergy nerfs between classes. And if you actually have to nerf a class because there are no synergy nerf options you compensate by buffing them in another place.

[SonsofDisaster]

We'll healers are the only special case if you were to consider balancing the game around 1v1. You are correct no single dps should be able to kill a healer 1v1 QUICKLY. But should 1 dps be able to kill a healer after running them completely oom? I believe thats fair.

So healers would die slowly to any class 1v1 yet also in the range of being bursted down by more than 1 player.

Wait, if all healers automatically die to any DPS (albeit slowly), how, exactly, is that BALANCED? o_O

Yeah I have heard of this problem. In wow 2v2...2 plus 2 doesn't always equal 4. If the classes have good synergy 2+2=5. However, this can be solved with synergy nerfs between classes. And if you actually have to nerf a class because there are no synergy nerf options you compensate by buffing them in another place.

Wait. So you started this thread talking about balancing every class around 1v1 and now you're talking about balancing them around pairings (ie. synergy)? I'm confused.

[sandmoth12]

Wait, if all healers automatically die to any DPS (albeit slowly), how, exactly, is that BALANCED? o_O

Because healers also kill players slowly because they lack damage. No one would play healers if they died as fast as DPS.

[Deleted]

IMG :P
Infracted.

Come on that was funny

[sandmoth12]

Wait. So you started this thread talking about balancing every class around 1v1 and now you're talking about balancing them around pairings (ie. synergy)? I'm confused.

What do you want me to say. It's complicated.

But still could work. 1v1 balance at it's core. However, it wouldn't be a perfect balance because classes have to remain different from each other. So a rough to moderate 1v1 balanced game that allows for class variety and differences.

[SonsofDisaster]

What do you want me to say. It's complicated.

But still could work. 1v1 balance at it's core. However, it wouldn't be a perfect balance because classes have to remain different from each other. So a rough to moderate 1v1 balanced game that allows for class variety and differences.

My point is, that's mostly what we already have... Rough/moderate 1v1 balancing (no single class counters every other class) with a few special considerations given for 3v3 and 5v5 team combinations. Am I missing something?

[Dyrtnap]

I really don't see a problem with it. Using the philosophy of balancing pvp around 1v1 would also balance 2v2, 3v3, 5v5 and BG's. It would be good for solo players and group players.

It's win win all around.

Honestly anyone that thinks this is just terrible at this game and has no clue how its mechanics work. I just can't find any way that a decent and intelligent player could even dream of thinking this would have ANY positive impact except for duels (which practically NO ONE thinks in competitive)

Please learn to think things through before you post them. Small changes set off ripple effects that set off more ripple effects. The consequences of this would completely break PvE which I barely care about but the game wouldn't exist without it. This would completely take all the flavor out of this game. If you want a zero flavor game go play Chess.

It is an impossibility to balance anything team based around 1v1. If you tried this it would make things sooooo much more broken than they already are. "Why?" you might ask.

A: EVERYONE would have to have HPS = to a healer.
B: EVERY healer would have DPS = to a main spec DPS.
C: EVERYONE would have mitigation = to a tank.

(A + B + C) = (PvE Screwed + PvP made boring as hell because no one can kill each other) = end of WoW

1v1 = competition to about 27 people that are terrible at team play and coordination.

[sandmoth12]

My point is, that's mostly what we already have... Rough/moderate 1v1 balancing (no single class counters every other class) with a few special considerations given for 3v3 and 5v5 team combinations. Am I missing something?

I disagree. Healers are immortal needing 2 or 3 players to take down 1 geared one. And there are very big hard counters in 1v1. The game feels like it's balanced around 3v3 at the moment. But not all players enjoy 3v3 you need to balance all aspects of pvp not just 3 players VS 3 players. And this system does that.

[Einzweidrei]

ROFL you made my day with that image. OP at the risk of being trolled the only way to make that work is if every class could do everything equaly well, Deal damage, Heal, CC, and absorb/avoid damage, everyone is the same. There are just so many aspects of the game tied to the interdependancy of the classes that you'd have to junk the whole system and start over to balance 1v1.

DPS - 100 hp, no avoid/mitigation, soft CC, 10 dps
Tank - 150 hp, some avoid and mitigation abilities, no CC, 5 dps
Healer - 100 hp, no avoid/mitigation, no CC, 5 dps, 5 hps
CC - 100 hp, no avoid/mitigation, hard CC, 5 dps

Oh look. 4 different classes, whipped up in the span of 30 seconds, that are balanced in 1v1 encounters but without having the same capabilities.

If I thought about it for 40 hours a week and had 50k/year motivation, I guarantee I'd be able to expand that to balance WoW around 1v1, flawlessly.


1v1 balance is ridiculously easy, even in a game with the variety of abilities that WoW has. You don't need to worry about everyone being able to do everything, because you can just look at every single spec 1v1 vs every single other spec. A single person who has been playing MMOs for the last 10 years could balance 1v1 in that manner in a matter of days.

---------- Post added 2011-10-07 at 11:21 PM ----------

How you gonna solve ranged vs melee?

Solving the balance of ranged v melee in 1v1 is, as ALL 1v1 balance is, ridiculously easy. Ranged does less damage, but melee is not always in melee range. You can add more dimensions to it than that, like melee having a charge ability but ranged having a snare, but the principle is the same.

The only reason this is tricky in WoW is because they aren't JUST trying to balance around PvP or around 1v1, but they are factoring in PvE also.



Edit - and yeah, the game isn't remotely balanced around 1v1 right now, if for nothing else than because of cooldowns.

CD balance is balanced, more or less, in long-term PvE fights. A demo lock is amazing for 1 minute of a 3-minute fight because he pops out a doomguard, fires up meta and immolation and felstorm and demonsoul, etc. But the next 2 minutes are done without those powerful CDs. An ele sham is more steady over the course of the whole 3-minute fight.

But in 1v1 this system is broken, because a 1v1 match only lasts a matter of seconds, and the demo against the ele would spend the entire fight with an 8k dps doomie, a felstorming and stunning felguard, doing 60% extra damage from meta, running in circles casting instants while immolation aura ticks like crazy and destroys the deathcoiled+stunned+stunned ele.

Same with a frost mage 1v1 against a warrior. The frost mage can pop 6x roots and a dozen crazy icelances while his pet helps DPS, in a matter of seconds. The warrior doesn't have a "break root and charge to the frost mage" ability that he can use 6 times in 10 seconds if he wants to... but if he catches a mage who is all out of CDs, he is on a more even footing (somewhat... heh. mages. heh.)



Edit again - I don't see why a game balanced around 1v1 couldn't operate well at larger scales. It just wouldn't work in the "lol my friends all play the same class but since we're friends we'll roll with this and it should work good in PvP" way. It'd work in the "well we have a group of 10 so we should probably have a tank or two and a few heals and some DPS and a CC or two" way.

[melodramocracy]

If I look for 1 vs 1 balance, I simply play another game. It's not going to, nor should it ever, happen here.

[xenaros]

If 1v1 was balanced, PvP would be boring as hell. For them to even make it balanced they'd probably have to scrap half of the class abilities anyway, maybe they should learn from minecraft and have 1 class, and your only abilities are hack, shoot and strafe!

[rabbimojo]

The effort needed to accomplish this balance, especially if you intend them to maintain any kind of heterogeneity, is considerably higher than pro-1v1ers give it credit for.

Then, even if that effort were successful, the actual gain in enjoyability for the game is unlikely to be anywhere near enough to justify the effort. It would be far easier and more effective to simply design a completely new game which is balanced with that philosophy from the get-go.

Hell, that level of effort could produce a lot of really exceptional new mechanics and game experiences. I'd much rather see a developer figure out the "I'm tired of dealing with idiots all the time" problem than figure out "I got ganked, madface." problem.

I think the real question on the table is not "Can/should this be done", but "Why?". I know there are many things that are frustrating about 1v1 imbalance, but I've personally never seen a cogent argument concluding that 1v1 balance would produce a more enjoyable game overall. (Contrasted with spending that effort on something else.) Blizz abandoned the 1v1 balance question for a reason.

In short, it'd be a lot easier for you to just quit getting mad at video games.
http://gunshowcomic.com/419

[Drsilverback]

Balancing the classes however would require Blizzard to do one major change to WOW. This change is separate the PVP specing from the PVE specing. Unfortunately Blizzard does not play on doing this. Even if this split happened you would improve the balance but would never get to a true balance between classes.

[Deleted]

The game would never work in a 1v1 situation.

[Dyrtnap]

DPS - 100 hp, no avoid/mitigation, soft CC, 10 dps
Tank - 150 hp, some avoid and mitigation abilities, no CC, 5 dps
Healer - 100 hp, no avoid/mitigation, no CC, 5 dps, 5 hps
CC - 100 hp, no avoid/mitigation, hard CC, 5 dps

Oh look. 4 different classes, whipped up in the span of 30 seconds, that are balanced in 1v1 encounters but without having the same capabilities.

If I thought about it for 40 hours a week and had 50k/year motivation, I guarantee I'd be able to expand that to balance WoW around 1v1, flawlessly.

Problem with tank:

Basically NO ONE would be able to kill the tank due to avoidance and mitigation.

If the healer didn't heal it would die before the tank. If it alternated the tank would still win due to mitigation and higher health. If it only healed... it would run out of mana.

CC would die before the tank due to them having the same DPS but tank has higher health + mitigation.

DPS would die in 20 secs so depending on the tanks mitigation would decide if its even possible to kill the tank at all.

Problem with CC:

CC in wow usually breaks on damage. The only way it would be even close to viable is if ALL its CC didn't break on damage.

CC could NEVER kill a healer unless it could keep it CC'd the entire match.

CC would NEVER kill DPS unless it kept it CC'd over 50% of the time.

The only way the CC

Problem with Healer:

DPS will ALWAYS kill the healer at 20 secs even if the healer is doing nothing but healing and would kill it at 10 secs while being at 50% health if the healer alternated. If the healer could do both at the same time they would both die at 20 secs.

Problem with DPS:

Summed up in other 3 sections.

TL;DR

You're obviously not bright enough to be in this conversation stop embarrassing yourself so badly... its painful to watch.