Addons?

[Vlad Morbius]

This right here pretty much sums up why I do not want any addons that measures dps/gs etc. So friggin what if "elitist" players lacked the tool to separate the so called bad players from the so called good ones? That only means you have to invest a bit more time and effort getting to know a player before inv him/her to a "raid". Which again will lead to a more tight community and avoiding all of these "elitist" jerks who thinks they are in somekinda life or death depending game, if you wnat to have all these tools go back to WoW imo.

A community more like vanilla is what many people wanted and a reason why so many left. WoW as of today provides so many tools for people to be complete assholes and addons is one of those tools.

So true. I am not a fan of add-ons primarily due to the fact that for every individual that uses them in a positive and constructive way there are dozens more that use them to belittle players in a sad attempt to build up their own ego. I am looking forward to breaking away from the hordes of elitist jerks and get back into a community of gamers who game for the sake of enjoying the experience.

[Lucky_]

So true. I am not a fan of add-ons primarily due to the fact that for every individual that uses them in a positive and constructive way there are dozens more that use them to belittle players in a sad attempt to build up their own ego. I am looking forward to breaking away from the hordes of elitist jerks and get back into a community of gamers who game for the sake of enjoying the experience.

Then guild wars 2 is most definitely not for you. Guild wars as series is the game that defined "have rank x or gtfo" long before WoW even understood what elitism meant. Which is why I would like to see tools to differentiate between players early in the instance - that way I could honestly justify to myself and circle of friends to grab that one random guy who seems decent instead of going full group -1 as we always did in GW1. And considering how many people seem to be coming back to play GW2 from GW1 according to what I'm reading on the forums and IMs, many of the oldies will be back to rule that same roost.

In GW1, we didn't "take our time to get to know" random people (and by "we" I refer to players who were in the top social circle). We filled the group from friends list, and occasionally took people who were friends of friends. If we didn't know you, you weren't invited. Period. It was the way guild wars worked about the first month onwards. Yes, it was very elitist, but after having to fail HoH or instance or pug GvG run because the random we took was an idiot and couple of times, even the most optimistic ones among us learned and didn't step on that rake again. As a result, the good players all knew each other, or at least knew someone who knew you. That's what got you invites into ecto runs, stygic runs, HoH runs and GvG pugging when you weren't GvGing. Because there was no simple way to tell if someone is decent enough to go do whatever it was we were doing with us before we were committed.

I would very much like to avoid that happening again in GW2, because I don't think I'll be able to play as much as I used to, and as a result have a very good chance of ending among those better then average people who won't have enough social contacts in the game to be "in" the circle, and as a result will have to carry bads unless they can convince people in the top circle to let them in.


Now, if you're a bad, you should be applauding no-addons policy. It will give you groups because people will be forced to carry you, just like they did in GW1. But if you're not, you should be gunning for addons or some tool that lets you objectively quantify how good a certain player is quickly if you know what's good for you. Because that's one way you will actually have a chance of getting invited into good groups that finish stuff with certainty, speed and efficiency.


Don't believe me? Log into GW1 and see it for yourself. HoH, pug GvG, even PvE runs are still same as before. You're either in the circle, or you don't get invites anywhere, unless you have applicable high title rank to show for it. Various title ranks are essentially GW's version of gearscore, and have been that way long before WoW even started to display item levels.

[Vlad Morbius]

Well it's pretty obvious we'll be "running" in different circles. I tend not to prejudge people and for that reason pretty much despise elitism and the whole "All pigs are equal but some are more equal than others" mentality. Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against you and your friends playing the game the way you enjoy it and if having to be a member of the elite is important to you then have at it, but I personally won't be chasing the Jones'. I on the other hand am not concerned about being branded by anyone for that matter and have been involved in very successful groups of players in MMO's since the days of MuDs, all of which were based on friendships and the same ideals of what is fun.

As of attempting to categorize all players as Bad because they don't agree with your specific idealism, or point of view, well that’s pretty narrow minded and frankly somewhat disturbing. Go back and search out your history and let me know if you find one example of how branding a specific sect of people based solely on your pre-conceived notions of good or bad ended well.

Lucky thing for me, you don't own the game or control whether this is the game for me because your attitude is what I am desperately trying to avoid.

[Kelzúl]

I myself am not bothered without addons. With GW1 I used textmod for darkglassui but from the looks of the ui its tastey enough. I think it might be more like that and less like WoW.

[Deleted]

I'm confused how not wanting addons make you bad?

I played fine without addons in WoW, getting to 2.7k in 3v3 before Cata, if I remember correctly baddies don't get good ratings. :3

[Lucky_]

Well it's pretty obvious we'll be "running" in different circles. I tend not to prejudge people and for that reason pretty much despise elitism and the whole "All pigs are equal but some are more equal than others" mentality. Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against you and your friends playing the game the way you enjoy it and if having to be a member of the elite is important to you then have at it, but I personally won't be chasing the Jones'. I on the other hand am not concerned about being branded by anyone for that matter and have been involved in very successful groups of players in MMO's since the days of MuDs, all of which were based on friendships and the same ideals of what is fun.

As of attempting to categorize all players as Bad because they don't agree with your specific idealism, or point of view, well that’s pretty narrow minded and frankly somewhat disturbing. Go back and search out your history and let me know if you find one example of how branding a specific sect of people based solely on your pre-conceived notions of good or bad ended well.

Lucky thing for me, you don't own the game or control whether this is the game for me because your attitude is what I am desperately trying to avoid.

I find it funny that you in fact managed to pull the rug from under your own claim in the next paragraph so thoroughly. I specifically noted that I would like a method to separate bads from average and above average players so that latter could get grouped with good players, and they wouldn't have to suffer from prejudice which would get more appropriately targeted at bads only, and you quickly judged that I think of all non-elitist players as bad.

It's rather sad too.

[Blufossa]

That is something I don't understand. If you don't like some type of addons why must ALL addons be banned? You know you can allow addons and still not allow certain kinds of them? After all, it's the ANet developers who define the addon API and what addons can do, like e.g. they can make the API so limited that you can only modify UI elements from addons but there aren't any API calls at all for reading combat logs or stats from the gameworld.

The point I'm getting from GW2 as a whole is they don't want you to number crunch, pick "the best build", or anything like that. They want everyone to have fun and play. If you notice the person is standing still and just occasionally doing something, I'd say that would be enough reason to either 1.) not bring him again, 2.) replace him. By the time you start dungeons, they probably would like to see multiple people in multiple guilds, that way you can advertise going somewhere (dungeon or event).

The other problem with AddOns is you get this attitude:

I think you're missing the forest for the trees here. Damage meter is the only tool that would be able to tell you that someone hasn't optimized his build, or is just generally sub-par. At least in guild environment, I can see it being extremely useful to find out who are bads and who are not.

-when someone can't "perform well enough". Soon most players start labeling the others as "bads", "casuals", etc. That's what happened to WoW I noticed when mostly DBM, Recount, and threat meters became MANDATORY. I stopped raiding after a bit because my laptop couldn't handle the stress of WoW, AddOns, and Vent (yes it's an older comp).

I just want to be able to throw myself into a world, where people just work together for a real single goal, and then move on. They're trying to treat it like any other RPG on consoles, but with the good'ol MMO part, so it becomes a real MMORPG. I don't want to pop on, do an event, and have someone spam whisper me "omfg you only did like XXX dmg as a XXX engineer, you f*cking suck dude!" That would give the community a very bad start.

And yes, I understand everyone's not like those kids, but it's a good 70-80% of most communities now, which breaks my heart because I remember when none of those AddOns mattered much (not raiding, because it doesn't exist in GW2).

Don't believe me? Log into GW1 and see it for yourself. HoH, pug GvG, even PvE runs are still same as before. You're either in the circle, or you don't get invites anywhere, unless you have applicable high title rank to show for it. Various title ranks are essentially GW's version of gearscore, and have been that way long before WoW even started to display item levels.

They even said themselves that they don't want to do that this time around. Sure they did it in GW1, but that was before GW2! With GW2, they're trying to break all the sh*t that makes bad communities, bad cookie-cutter builds, etc. They're trying to make a game where you can play for a bit, earn stuff, and log out (which has me excited). And in Dynamic Events, when people "show up late" or "kill one mob", they get crap rewards because the system is watching their "effort". Not like in WoW where you can show up to a raid late, or 5 man PuG 90% done and get rewarded for it.

[Eorayn]

I say NO ADDONS. It's more fun when I know everyone has the same bonuses as myself. No damage meter, no threat meter, no boss mods. They make it too easy.

[Wrathonia]

I will say this, I loved addons in WoW. I used recount for the tool it was to up MY game and up MY numbers. Because of it I got better. GW2 doesn't need that though. There are no roles so you shouldn't focus on your DPS. That will lead you to not playing as a team member and getting yourself or others killed because you are trying to do mad deeps.

[Armida]

I find it funny that you in fact managed to pull the rug from under your own claim in the next paragraph so thoroughly. I specifically noted that I would like a method to separate bads from average and above average players so that latter could get grouped with good players, and they wouldn't have to suffer from prejudice which would get more appropriately targeted at bads only, and you quickly judged that I think of all non-elitist players as bad.

It's rather sad too.

Strawman argument.

OT: I still say that addons ruins the game experience for a lot of people, and if you so desperatly want(no not necessarily you Lucky) to be in that particular group of strapping young lads, then by all means be that way. But, mandatory addons is really something that GW2 should avoid, like it or not(this is for you Lucky) addons makes for a poor community in the end.

[Deleted]

The point I'm getting from GW2 as a whole is they don't want you to number crunch, pick "the best build", or anything like that. They want everyone to have fun and play. If you notice the person is standing still and just occasionally doing something, I'd say that would be enough reason to either 1.) not bring him again, 2.) replace him. By the time you start dungeons, they probably would like to see multiple people in multiple guilds, that way you can advertise going somewhere (dungeon or event).

I can understand the reasoning for that, yes, but you never answered my question: why ban ALL addons then?

[Eorayn]

I don't want stuff like Deadly Boss Mods, then it's too easy and removes the fun.
I don't want "gearscore", because then everyone will focus on that instead of skills.
I don't want Damage and Threat Meters, because then it will also become too easy, and players will mock each other.

[Deleted]

I don't want stuff like Deadly Boss Mods, then it's too easy and removes the fun.
I don't want "gearscore", because then everyone will focus on that instead of skills.
I don't want Damage and Threat Meters, because then it will also become too easy, and players will mock each other.

How do damage meters make it too easy?

[Blufossa]

I can understand the reasoning for that, yes, but you never answered my question: why ban ALL addons then?

Because someone will create that one AddOn that everyone may be "required" to have to get into guild XXX. I saw one guild on WoW's horde side that required 5-6 AddOns, and on our server, everyone followed suit. I miss the days of Kara and Naxx, when people could raid (even PuG) without really needing anything.

I don't want stuff like Deadly Boss Mods, then it's too easy and removes the fun.
I don't want "gearscore", because then everyone will focus on that instead of skills.
I don't want Damage and Threat Meters, because then it will also become too easy, and players will mock each other.

Well, it would only become easy if everyone played that certain Profession build (like Arcane mages in WoW using one button most fights). And if you had the dps meter, people would ridicule each other.

Leader w/addon: "XXX you're not doing enough damage."
XXX w/o addon: "What? But I've been kiting the mobs trying to trash our healer the whole time!"
Random person w/addon: "ololololol, and u think that matters why?? the tank is out dpsing u noob haha"
Other random person w/addon: "ya, we dont need someone who cant do his job and kite bye"
*You have been removed from the group.*

I've seen that happen a lot in WoW, and way too often. They're so focused on the numbers, they don't notice anything else going on around them. I would be on my druid when this happened in 5 mans. Leader/tank runs in, gets the boss' attention, but fails to pick up add #1 and add #2. So I'd switch into bear, saving the healer, but severing my damage. Then they'd laugh and point at me, even after I saved their hides. And in the WoW voting system, 3v1 wins all the time for kicking such people.

People just want to number crunch with AddOns so they can say "My **** is bigger than yours!" without even looking at other circumstances during the fight. I want to be rid of this, so everyone gets a chance, and a chance to learn from their mistakes. If the person in the group is REALLY that bad, be it the tank, dps, or healer, then you should remove them based on what they're supposed to be doing (not just damage, that's stupid) like kiting, aoeing, etc.

(And when I mean "tank, dps, healer", with GW2, I'd assume people would either present themselves with such "off-roles" or if they have the best gear to "absorb damage" or "throw some heals around" etc.)

[Eorayn]

How do damage meters make it too easy?

Well, actually I meant that threat meters make it easy and damage meters will make people bitches. Won't let this happen.

[Deleted]

Because someone will create that one AddOn that everyone may be "required" to have to get into guild XXX.

And again, if ANet devs only create an addon API that can access UI elements and not objects in the gameworld... well, there wouldn't be any addon to "require" by the guilds. So again, what is the problem?

[Glytch]

And again, if ANet devs only create an addon API that can access UI elements and not objects in the gameworld... well, there wouldn't be any addon to "require" by the guilds. So again, what is the problem?

thats the same thing wow does

---------- Post added 2011-10-12 at 02:45 PM ----------

Then guild wars 2 is most definitely not for you. Guild wars as series is the game that defined "have rank x or gtfo" long before WoW even understood what elitism meant. Which is why I would like to see tools to differentiate between players early in the instance - that way I could honestly justify to myself and circle of friends to grab that one random guy who seems decent instead of going full group -1 as we always did in GW1. And considering how many people seem to be coming back to play GW2 from GW1 according to what I'm reading on the forums and IMs, many of the oldies will be back to rule that same roost.

In GW1, we didn't "take our time to get to know" random people (and by "we" I refer to players who were in the top social circle). We filled the group from friends list, and occasionally took people who were friends of friends. If we didn't know you, you weren't invited. Period. It was the way guild wars worked about the first month onwards. Yes, it was very elitist, but after having to fail HoH or instance or pug GvG run because the random we took was an idiot and couple of times, even the most optimistic ones among us learned and didn't step on that rake again. As a result, the good players all knew each other, or at least knew someone who knew you. That's what got you invites into ecto runs, stygic runs, HoH runs and GvG pugging when you weren't GvGing. Because there was no simple way to tell if someone is decent enough to go do whatever it was we were doing with us before we were committed.

I would very much like to avoid that happening again in GW2, because I don't think I'll be able to play as much as I used to, and as a result have a very good chance of ending among those better then average people who won't have enough social contacts in the game to be "in" the circle, and as a result will have to carry bads unless they can convince people in the top circle to let them in.


Now, if you're a bad, you should be applauding no-addons policy. It will give you groups because people will be forced to carry you, just like they did in GW1. But if you're not, you should be gunning for addons or some tool that lets you objectively quantify how good a certain player is quickly if you know what's good for you. Because that's one way you will actually have a chance of getting invited into good groups that finish stuff with certainty, speed and efficiency.


Don't believe me? Log into GW1 and see it for yourself. HoH, pug GvG, even PvE runs are still same as before. You're either in the circle, or you don't get invites anywhere, unless you have applicable high title rank to show for it. Various title ranks are essentially GW's version of gearscore, and have been that way long before WoW even started to display item levels.

not knowing an encounter != bad player
not knowing an encounter == uninformed player

[Deleted]

thats the same thing wow does

It isn't. WoW addon API allows addons to access the gameworld and objects in it (target stuff, obtain information on objects that are not even in the player's vicinity etc. etc.), not to mention combat log, cast spells and so on. So no, it's not even nearly the same thing.

[Blufossa]

And again, if ANet devs only create an addon API that can access UI elements and not objects in the gameworld... well, there wouldn't be any addon to "require" by the guilds. So again, what is the problem?

I suppose UI wouldn't be too bad (it's so pretty now I don't see a reason to change it) then that's fine. But I foresee someone doing something stupid. :P

If ArenaNet can put a ban on the others (threat, dps, dbm types) then I would be a happy Charr.

[Deleted]

If ArenaNet can put a ban on the others (threat, dps, dbm types) then I would be a happy Charr.

There is no need "ban", they just don't create the API functions that allow the addon to query boss abilities, target objects, or access combat log.