Will there be a damage meter?

[Shamburger]

-snip-

I mostly agree with you. However the issue you have is not with damage meters. It's with stupid players. Missing a CD or proc etc etc is player competence problem, not the addons. For example when I played WoW my recount was set to Hide-in-combat and it would show after the fight was over.

Although WoL is an invaluable tool in measuring performance (as it is way more in-depth than Skada or Recount), nothing can compare to having in-game and real-time information available to you. WoL only helps you after the fight is over, unless you upload every attempt and wait for someone to look through it before the next pull (unlikely).

[LunarionSilver]

I mostly agree with you. However the issue you have is not with damage meters. It's with stupid players. Missing a CD or proc etc etc is player competence problem, not the addons. For example when I played WoW my recount was set to Hide-in-combat and it would show after the fight was over.

Although WoL is an invaluable tool in measuring performance (as it is way more in-depth than Skada or Recount), nothing can compare to having in-game and real-time information available to you. WoL only helps you after the fight is over, unless you upload every attempt and wait for someone to look through it before the next pull (unlikely).

This is true. I also run with Skada set to hide during combat.

To be fair, however, WoL does offer realtime uploads of the combat log, which I've used, and you can easily tell what is what with a quick glance while say, running back after a wipe to see what was wrong.

So in a sense, it's still real time. No different than checking Skada or Recount after a wipe.

I'd say the major difference would be how fast WoL decides to upload the real time data. And of course, if someone is checking their log while in combat after having died (with no BR available.)

I never actually said I had an issue with meters, just that I think most of the time they get used poorly.

Another win/win solution would to be say, have them in game, but have them forced to be hidden during combat unless dead. Or make it so they cannot be linked in chat.

The only issue with not linking them through chat would be people denying the numbers. "Oh yeah my Skada says something different..." When the rest of the raid has the same numbers. Heh.

Either way it's not a deal breaker for me, at all. A preference is a preference, and I won't deny the utility provided by them, since I use it extensively.

[moff]

I need one, endgame would be impossible for me witthout a damage meter

[Shamburger]

I need one, endgame would be impossible for me witthout a damage meter

Please elaborate...

[moff]

its just a personal thing, mmos are about improving yourself and for me, thats not just the gear. I need to know how good I am compared to other players, I want to be good and I want it to be known that I am a good player. If wow didnt have damagemeters I would never have played it that long.

[Shamburger]

Some players measure themselves by how much further they are than others.
Other players measure themselves by how much they can help others move forward.
To each their own I suppose.

[moff]

I dont know what you are trying to imply, but I never hesitated to give other players advice when I was asked.
It was good they knew who to ask ask though, right? they knew because of the damage meters.

for me its part of the fun and especially the motivation to know that I am good at what I do, if I didnt know where I stood I would feel lost and poorly motivated

[Gallahadd]

somehow after reading the OP's post this comic came to mind :P http://www.darklegacycomics.com/46.html

on topic though, I do think a damage meter will be added fairly soon after launch, and I do really think it'll be needed.

I have a... strange obsession with pouring over both my personal recount, and the RL's WoL parses after our raids, mostly just to measure my own effectiveness, I VERY rarely look at other peoples information, and when I do it's only to compare them with mine for my own reasons(I.E comparing damage taken/dealt on a certain boss with other tanks of the same class/gear level, to see if there's any way I can improve).

the problem with Dps meters is people who have NO idea how to use them correctly, and sadly while this is a small minority of players, as in so many cases it is also the most VOCAL segment of the playerbase, so people get a squewed opinion of Dps meters, and their overall use, due to stupid people misuing them.

[Profyrion]

I dont know what you are trying to imply, but I never hesitated to give other players advice when I was asked.
It was good they knew who to ask ask though, right? they knew because of the damage meters.

for me its part of the fun and especially the motivation to know that I am good at what I do, if I didnt know where I stood I would feel lost and poorly motivated

Without meters you would find other ways to measure personal success... if you tried.

Meters inevitably drive people to obsession over fractions of a percentage, which leads to petty bickering over class balance and a general loss of focus. Cooperative PvE should never be about the dick measuring contest that comes with damage meters. Did you kill the boss? Yes? = OK, good. On to the next one. No? = Push the buttons faster.

I don't need a meter to tell me that.

[Dezerte]

What I don't like about damage meters is that it making the community worse. It will no doubt be a helpful tool sorting out the bad from the good, but it transforms a player into a number that's like "this number is you, if it's too low you are awful, suck, fail at life etc".

And the cool thing about not having damage meters is it takes longer for people to figure out what the best rotation is, and perhaps by the time someone has figured it out Bioware releases a patch that changes it up. This keeps the game interesting to me. It will be much more rewarding figuring out what the best rotation is, the best stat and so on all by yourself, THAT will seperate the good from the bad, but it will be harder to spot them of course.

TDLR;
There are both pros and cons with damage meters.

[Zarasthura]

There's been a huge discussion about allowing addons in general on the official forums. It seems most people are against addons because of three reasons

1 recount abuse - getting mad over being told you need to pick up the dps. Parses taken from combat data will still be around even without having a recount-like addon, so there's really no way to escape being called out for terrible performances

2 addons that utilize built-in mouseover macros - for some odd ass reason, people think that Healbot and the like make you a "bad player" if you use them, and they don't see reason when you tell them that you like having an easier time playing the game

3 addons that give you an advantage (Auctioneer, Gladius, etc) - same as above, people seem to think this is cheating LOL

[vizzle]

There's been a huge discussing about allowing addons in general on the official forums. It seems most people are against addons because of three reasons

1 recount abuse - getting mad over being told you need to pick up the dps. Parses taken from combat data will still be around even without having a recount-like addon, so there's really no way to escape being called out for terrible performances

2 addons that utilize built-in mouseover macros - for some odd ass reason, people think that Healbot and the like make you a "bad player" if you use them, and they don't see reason when you tell them that you like having an easier time playing the game

3 addons that give you an advantage (Auctioneer, Gladius, etc) - same as above, people seem to think this is cheating LOL

"Most people" are generally... eh, nevermind, I'd rather not get into it.

[Argroth]

I would support damage meters if they only showed your own damage not other players in your group.

The only people who would need/care to see are typically elitest jerks who only measure peoples worth on numbers alone. If damage meters were only for yourself it can help you improve dps yourself, once people start seeing/judging others based on the minorest differences in dps they become elitest jackasses who punish people for doing average rather then a no-lifer top dps.

The game is no longer a game but a second job with people taking it far too seriously when dps meters are added.

If someone was really so bad it would be noticable without dps meters, otherwise jerks use it as useless bragging rights.

[Herrenos]

Oh boy, the Great Addons Debate. People get really really pissed about this one, on both sides.

I think that SWTOR's addon debate will play out similarly to Rift's so let me share a bit about that:

There was an epic thread during the Rift beta about addons and how they should never ever ever ever ever be allowed (one side) and that the game would miserably fall flat on its ass if they were not allowed (other side).

it was like "IF YOU HAVE TO USE ADDONS YOU'RE BAD"
"YOU JUST DON'T WANT TO KNOW HOW BAD YOU ARE THAT'S WHY YOU HATE METERS"
"ADDONS MAKE EVERYONE A DOUCHEBAG CHEATER"
"NO ADDONS LET IDIOTS PRETEND THEY ARE GOOD"
"CRUTCHES!"
"LAZY!"
"BUT ENDGAME!"
"BUT COMMUNITY!"
yadda yadda, etc etc.

In the end, Trion didn't launch with addons, and they just made them available in the last patch. The game doesn't seem too affected either way. Combat parsers existed for the douches to spam their numbers before addons (and since combat logging will exist in SWTOR there WILL be combat parsers) , and now there's damage meters that make combat parsing less annoying.

If you're interested in reading the two side's arguments in absolute and complete depth see this thread from the Beta: (look out it's 147 pages)
http://forums.riftgame.com/rift-general-discussions/general-discussion/37104-no-ui-mods-no-damage-meter.html

Also, if you want to see the current Rift discussion over addons being added:
http://forums.riftgame.com/rift-gene...ddons-why.html


EDIT:
Personally, I like 90% of addons. I think deadly boss mod type addons are kinda bad though - they take a lot of challenge out of mechanics, forcing devs to overtune damage/healing to compensate.

[Tiffaa]

I really cant understand how people are opposed to DPS meters. If its because people measure skill levels by their DPS that is, whether you like it or not, mostly true. A DPS' job is to DPS and if he isnt doing good DPS he is failing, and who cares if he is doing the tacts perfectly if hes pulling half of what the others are doing, because you can always get someone who doesnt stand in the shit and pulls good DPS.

Truth.

DPS is DPS. Doesn't mean you need to be a arrogant 15 year old boy over it.

Im consistently top 5 in my heroic firelands 25 man.

Do i link meters? no.

Do i brag? no.

It's simply doing your job correctly. If someone needs to brag about it to feel better about themselves.....who cares.

That being said, i would love a damage meter. As a hardcore raider i need that tool to make sure i am keeping pace with my teammates and being a useful addition to the team. I would be the first to volunteer to step out if i was underperforming. I take my DPS seriously and am not a bitch about it, why cant others?

And for those who don't like constructive critism, perhaps tanking or healing would be better for you. DPS by nature is by the numbers and constantly being judged by your leaders. Dps is the largest makeup of any raid/party and as such there are 5 times as many (estimate) dps on a server than the tanks/healers, you can and will be replaced. To stand out gurantees you a spot in where your spot is always up for grabs in a hardcore raiding enviroment. Whether your an ass about it or not is another topic entirely.

TLDR: Judge your performance with meters;only yours. Unless your the raid leader, then its your job to call out the slackers. And if they can't handle the critism, theres something wrong.

[Zachyveng]

I would support damage meters if they only showed your own damage not other players in your group.

The only people who would need/care to see are typically elitest jerks who only measure peoples worth on numbers alone. If damage meters were only for yourself it can help you improve dps yourself, once people start seeing/judging others based on the minorest differences in dps they become elitest jackasses who punish people for doing average rather then a no-lifer top dps.

The game is no longer a game but a second job with people taking it far too seriously when dps meters are added.

Woah now, take a slow breath, in out in out. Ok now we can tell you've got issues with people that spam the dps meters after fights and go "LOLOL LOOK MA I DID XXXX damage!". However this is not the correct way to use meters. My most commonly looked up thing with my recount is my damage done (and slams done things like that) and how much damage was taken on the boss by avoidable damage. Do not judge the people who use them correctly as "elitist no-lifer dps" (Also seriously, stop insulting people with that crap. Just because someone can top you does not mean they have no life. Although I guess it's the better than me = no life, worse than me = l2play noob people that started it so /shrug). Just remember since there aren't cross realm dungeons if you run into someone being an asshole and using "swtorrecountname" to link damage done just ignore/blacklist him and move on. Don't punish the people using tools correctly simply because a small minority use them incorrectly.

[Zarasthura]

"Most people" are generally... eh, nevermind, I'd rather not get into it.

If you don't believe me, go check out the threads yourself. Bring up whether or not they should be allowed and you will get all kinds of responses, ranging from "its cheating!" to "it's lazy to not use buttons 1 - 0" to "I dont want recount to ruin the game" with a little of Gearscore hatred thrown in

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=409475

Although generally the forums are usually the vocal minority, I really hope that Bioware doesn't listen to the knee-jerk reactions going on in the forums.

[luccadeo]

I really hope not.

[Argroth]

Woah now, take a slow breath, in out in out. Ok now we can tell you've got issues with people that spam the dps meters after fights and go "LOLOL LOOK MA I DID XXXX damage!". However this is not the correct way to use meters. My most commonly looked up thing with my recount is my damage done (and slams done things like that) and how much damage was taken on the boss by avoidable damage. Do not judge the people who use them correctly as "elitist no-lifer dps" (Also seriously, stop insulting people with that crap. Just because someone can top you does not mean they have no life. Although I guess it's the better than me = no life, worse than me = l2play noob people that started it so /shrug). Just remember since there aren't cross realm dungeons if you run into someone being an asshole and using "swtorrecountname" to link damage done just ignore/blacklist him and move on. Don't punish the people using tools correctly simply because a small minority use them incorrectly.

did you miss my whole first line? I said it would be fine if people used them for thier own improvement.
We are basically on the same page, damage meters are fine for self improvement but not for comparative purposes, I just hate jerks more then you.

I harshly use the "no-lifer"-like comment to counter the innacurate "you're just a noob"/"you don't have talent" arguement because the only way to fight illogical people is to use illogical methods (i.e. namecalling). The logic of not being a jerk and to not downtalk people who don't put such a high priority on game numbers is lost on people who use DPS meters to brag and kick people.

[Delia]

They have combat logging, so its impossible to prevent a damage meter, people who cry about it need to accept its inevitability. As for the person saying "make it always hidden in combat!" that's not going to happen either. When/if in game addons become available (Bioware said they'd like to allow them post-launch) the onus of cutting people off would be on to the addon writer, and they aren't going to put those kind of restrictions on their addons... or if they do, someone else will just write another without it.

Before addons are enabled, since the game can create a parsable log, at the very least, someone will make a log site similar to WoL, and depending on how long the delay before in game addons are allowed, someone will likely create a 3rd party program that actively parses in real time (final fantasy XI had this as addons were never allowed).

If you are distracted by meters and can't dodge fire cause you just have to stare at the bars, sorry but that's on you, not the addon. If you hate meters cause you get called out for doing less damage than you should with your gear, sorry but that's on you again, while I don't expect people to have perfect rotation and do max damage all the time, I do expect in a serious progression for people to know what they are doing. I could care less about dungeons or PUGs as long as things are dying... but if we're hitting enrage timers then yea, I'll point out the people pulling sub-par numbers.

Like one of my best friends who I raid with on my warrior alt, she never dies to fire, and always avoids mechanics, but rarely does over 12k DPS in firelands. Is she a "bad" player? no. Would I bring her to a progression raid? not unless she learns how to up her DPS. I use the log to try to pin-point her errors and help her out with her rotation, something that would be near impossible without meters/logs unless i just wanted to target her and stare at what she was doing the entire fight.

People need to get over themselves and learn that damage DOES mean something, even if an encounter was balanced entirely around having huge mechanics people had to avoid for 99% of the fight, so everyone's DPS was low... you'd still want the people who could do slightly less low DPS (as long as they can still avoid said mechanics), as it would make you have to play out the mechanics for a shorter period of time. If you're kicked from a PUG for doing 5% less damage than people they're probably assholes, its not the addon. If you're kicked for doing significantly less damage than people because you're having to fulfill a utility role, they're probably assholes who don't even know fight mechanics, better to get out while you can anyways... If you're kicked for doing significantly less damage than people in similar gear to you, in similar situations, then that's YOUR fault not the addon's... accept it, and move on.