Patch 9.2 Hotfixes - Heroic Rygelon Nerfs - May 27, 2022

pretty big nerfs actually

I guess better late than never. But this fight was very punishing for small groups with no immunities. Ridiculously punishing.

I miss 10 man raiding. Hopeful they can somehow make it relevant again.

so when we will see anyone getting fired for approving this raid to go live in its current state ?

never ?

untill then nothing will change - they dont care for years now about proper tunign of raids

Originally Posted by kamuimac

so when we will see anyone getting fired for approving this raid to go live in its current state ?

never ?

untill then nothing will change - they dont care for years now about proper tunign of raids

What do you think actually is the "proper" tuning of that raid?

Skill levels of the thousands and thousands of heroic raiding guilds is vastly different. If raids were to be released at their final 10x nerfed state the better guilds who go on to mythic would steamroll it and have no fun. A couple of nerfs over a couple of weeks gives more guilds content at least remotely matching their skill. You just want the easiest version first so you alone have fun, not spending a single thought about everyone else.

Originally Posted by Dimmune

I miss 10 man raiding. Hopeful they can somehow make it relevant again.

they are not,people need to get over it,the BEST shot you got is MAYBE mythic going down to 15 people,they talked about ti before,the hardest difficulty is best tuned when its a fixed number,and 20 was the number they felt was best that offers people the most acces to every toolkit and classes

Originally Posted by deenman

they are not,people need to get over it,the BEST shot you got is MAYBE mythic going down to 15 people,they talked about ti before,the hardest difficulty is best tuned when its a fixed number,and 20 was the number they felt was best that offers people the most acces to every toolkit and classes

My apologies, I was specifically talking about outside of Mythic Raiding. To go into a little more detail, WotLK was the start of it. I'm grasping at straws but the intimate experience of a small raid group always was more enjoyable for me. I spent my guild raid nights in the 10m setting and we would do a server community raid in the 25s. Best of both worlds it felt like. A couple small guilds coming together for the 25s was special. Cata kind of ruined that with the lockout changes. And little by little that community dwindled and fell apart.

Originally Posted by Twdft

What do you think actually is the "proper" tuning of that raid?

Skill levels of the thousands and thousands of heroic raiding guilds is vastly different. If raids were to be released at their final 10x nerfed state the better guilds who go on to mythic would steamroll it and have no fun. A couple of nerfs over a couple of weeks gives more guilds content at least remotely matching their skill. You just want the easiest version first so you alone have fun, not spending a single thought about everyone else.

No, I agree with the general intent of the poster you quoted. (Not about firing people but about them not caring about proper tuning for years.) To be clear, all of the commentary below is exclusively about Heroic difficulty raiding, though most of it applies to Normal too. I don't have any experience or insight into the tuning of Mythic raiding, and I think that's an entirely separate discussion.

For years, WoW raids have been getting harder and harder. The differences between two consecutive tiers are subtle and people will automatically contribute any drop-off in boss kill numbers to the decline of the WoW population in general, but that's not entirely it.

I've run with the same people for 10 years. Every raid, our AotC kills have been slipping back a week. We went from 12 weeks to AotC in Legion and now we're 18-20 weeks to AotC in the last 2 Shadowlands raids. I will hold up Denathrius and Sylvanas as the hardest end bosses on Heroic that Blizzard has ever designed. Part of that is the incredible length of the Sylvanas fight combined with a high amount of 1-shot mechanics and environmental death opportunities. And let's not talk about pre-nerf Anduin.

You could say my guild is full of bads who are slowly getting worse - but that's just it, we're not slowly getting worse. We're just as bad now as we were back then, maybe even a little better. I know this because I can look at logs from 5+ years ago and our DPS and healers are spread out the same amount as always, ranking in similar percentiles as always (which to be clear, are generally pretty average at best).

The reality is that the healing checks, damage checks, and mechanic checks have all slowly been getting tighter over time on both main raid difficulties. I believe this is because as the WoW population drops off, the most vocal Normal and Heroic raid groups have disappeared, so Blizzard isn't getting them enough feedback from Normal and Heroic groups saying "hey maybe this tuning is fucking terrible".

Either that or they just aren't listening to those people anymore. Progression-based Normal and Heroic guilds are part of the lifeblood of this game, and they've been roundly ignored. These nerfs are weeks late.

Originally Posted by Dimmune

My apologies, I was specifically talking about outside of Mythic Raiding. To go into a little more detail, WotLK was the start of it. I'm grasping at straws but the intimate experience of a small raid group always was more enjoyable for me. I spent my guild raid nights in the 10m setting and we would do a server community raid in the 25s. Best of both worlds it felt like. A couple small guilds coming together for the 25s was special. Cata kind of ruined that with the lockout changes. And little by little that community dwindled and fell apart.

Yeah, it's disappointing they don't really care about tuning for raid size anymore either. You can see the raid-sized tuning getting sloppier over time, especially in Shadowlands. There are several fights where you're at a blatantly massive disadvantage if you use 10 players. It reminds me of Heroic Kilrogg back in WoD (i.e. 3 DPS have to do mechanics, doesn't matter if you're a 10-man raid and only have 5-6 DPS total), and I thought we were beyond that. There were signs in Legion that they were getting better and actually caring about raid size tuning. Then it faded away again.

Originally Posted by Twdft

What do you think actually is the "proper" tuning of that raid?

Skill levels of the thousands and thousands of heroic raiding guilds is vastly different. If raids were to be released at their final 10x nerfed state the better guilds who go on to mythic would steamroll it and have no fun. A couple of nerfs over a couple of weeks gives more guilds content at least remotely matching their skill. You just want the easiest version first so you alone have fun, not spending a single thought about everyone else.

You are literally advocating the game be tuned for the 40ish people in the world who raid as job. Who cares how fast they clear the raids they are the ultra tiny minority of the playerbase the 1% of the 1% in the game and catering to them wont pay for the developer time to craft the raid and tune it that hard. I'm not saying it should be face roll but they should tune it so enough of the population clears it justifying its cost. That's also why they keep nerfing it they clearly aren't hitting their goals for pull counts and kill counts and are putting their thumb on the scale to fix it.

Originally Posted by Dimmune

My apologies, I was specifically talking about outside of Mythic Raiding. To go into a little more detail, WotLK was the start of it. I'm grasping at straws but the intimate experience of a small raid group always was more enjoyable for me. I spent my guild raid nights in the 10m setting and we would do a server community raid in the 25s. Best of both worlds it felt like. A couple small guilds coming together for the 25s was special. Cata kind of ruined that with the lockout changes. And little by little that community dwindled and fell apart.

you do know you can do 10 man heroic? its basicaly the same as 10hc vs 25hc in wotlk,easier with lower loot,whats the problem?

Originally Posted by deenman

you do know you can do 10 man heroic? its basicaly the same as 10hc vs 25hc in wotlk,easier with lower loot,whats the problem?

Easier? Have you ever tried 10 man heroic currently? Its so badly tuned its not even fun. We litteraly couldn't kill a few bosses when we were 10-12 players, then we just plopped in 8 or so more players, who were less geared and did less dps than our lowest 10 man player and we facerolled the bosses. The tuning is heavily in favor of bigger teams

Funny a dev makes a comment like he is guessing.
Didn't they actually have time to test it?

Originally Posted by glowpipe

Easier? Have you ever tried 10 man heroic currently? Its so badly tuned its not even fun. We litteraly couldn't kill a few bosses when we were 10-12 players, then we just plopped in 8 or so more players, who were less geared and did less dps than our lowest 10 man player and we facerolled the bosses. The tuning is heavily in favor of bigger teams

easier than mythic i mean

Originally Posted by Dimmune

I miss 10 man raiding. Hopeful they can somehow make it relevant again.

It's called flex, you can do normal and heroic 10man if you want - tho too bad they can't balance it for shit cause Bobby needs a new yacht.