people right about Sylvanas after all?

[Baker St Irregulars]

Actually, you're presenting twisted versions of the facts that support your biased opinion, without actually taking the entire picture into consideration.

And then you're going around calling people "fanbois" so yes, you're insulting people, instead of being mature about this.

You cannot "twist" murder, extortion, ethnic cleansing and kidnapping to make them any more evil than they actually are to BEGIN WITH.

Those acts are EVIL - PERIOD.

If you don't like being called a fanboi, then stop trying to claim those acts aren't evil, and that "Sylvanas is doing it for the betterment of her society."

She admits flat out she's doing it for her own gain. Her torture and kidnapping and torture of Koltra pretty sink whatever argument you have to make about her trying to save her people.

[Anyankha]

since the leaking information of Sylvanas' actions in cataclysm there have been intense discussions about what she's really up to, her motivations and the consequences in a near future. almost all threads were flamewars and trollfeasts between "zealots", "emos" and "casuals" who dont care. myself have always defended her image against all gryffindor-boys and loved her whole story. but then i read this after coming from my summer vacation:



yeah. they r totally making her a villain sooner or later. just put down the only cool character left in the lore. im surprised i dont care anymore tbh. after experiensing blizzard attempts to create new fresh lore in this xpac it was only a matter of time before it happened. cuz lore is now controlled by the need of new content to kill and loot. no depth. or can we still hope that a good surprise is around the corner? that there will be a horde vs tirion + mograine? a 4th war? maybe not, since "there is no money" for such awesomeness.

what r your last theories about sylvanas and the forsaken before blizzard surprises us with new predictable content?

I take the quote refers to the battle in Andorhal, right? All the Koltiras and Thassarian incident.

[Zarasthura]

FYI Just because Garrosh and Garrosh's orcs dislike her methods does not mean that the entire Horde dislike them too.

[Thage]

You cannot "twist" murder, extortion, ethnic cleansing and kidnapping to make them any more evil than they actually are to BEGIN WITH.

Those acts are EVIL - PERIOD.

If you don't like being called a fanboi, then stop trying to claim those acts aren't evil, and sylvanas is doing it for the betterment of her society.

She admits flat out she's doing it for her own gain. Her torture and kidnapping and torture of Koltra pretty sink whatever argument you have to make about her trying to save her people.

Yeah, hi, are you going to stop ignoring me pointing out the flaws in your rhetoric or are you going to continue taking the Rush Limbaugh and Al Gore route?

[Flaks]

Don't forget that Sylvanus does NOT want to be commanded and controlled by the Burning Legion again. She fought tooth and nail to break free of that.

You probably meant the Lich King, not the Burning Legion. I know Ner'zhul is supposed to be the Burning Legion's (specifically Kil'jaeden's) pawn but Ner'zhul practically deceived the deceiver. Sylvanas is no more under the Burning Legion's control than she is under the Lich King's.

My own take on all this is that Sylvanas is like a Garrosh on crack. She gets shit done. And she doesn't give a shit about honor. Now that's what I call a man.

In the end though I think she'll end up becoming a living blood elf again. She'll struggle to maintain control over the undead and have to fight off other banshee queens trying to take control over the undead.

[Baker St Irregulars]

It wasn't against the rules to make a superplague, it was against the rules to use it the way it was used.

Yes it was. It was back in Arathi. Thrall said it was in books out of WoW, and during the whole battle for the undercity, Sylvanas admits it was against the rules and lets you kill putress.

Now you're even LYING about the lore to defend her.

[surafang]

Silly alliance, you make it sound like being forsaken is a bad thing. We are helping people to become better.

You sir made my day and I do not like the Forsaken and I play Horde. ^^^^ this x1000

[DrakeWurrum]

You probably meant the Lich King, not the Burning Legion. I know Ner'zhul is supposed to be the Burning Legion's (specifically Kil'jaeden's) pawn but Ner'zhul practically deceived the deceiver. Sylvanas is no more under the Burning Legion's control than she is under the Lich King's.

My own take on all this is that Sylvanas is like a Garrosh on crack. She gets shit done. And she doesn't give a shit about honor. Now that's what I call a man.

Well, indirectly the Burning Legion. The Lich King was still under the control of the Burning Legion until the very moment Sylvanus broke free, iirc.

Yes it was. It was back in Arathi. Thrall said it was in books out of WoW, and during the whole battle for the undercity, Sylvanas admits it was against the rules and lets you kill putress.

Now you're even LYING about the lore to defend her.

Uh, no, I'm not lying about anything from the lore. It was never against the rules for Sylvanus to create a plague, and nothing in the quest text or NPC flavor texts in game ever presented that information. What about the idea of a plague that kills only the Scourge is bad?

[mistuhbull]

You cannot "twist" murder, extortion, ethnic cleansing and kidnapping to make them any more evil than they actually are to BEGIN WITH.

Those acts are EVIL - PERIOD.

If you don't like being called a fanboi, then stop trying to claim those acts aren't evil, and sylvanas is doing it for the betterment of her society.

She admits flat out she's doing it for her own gain. Her torture and kidnapping and torture of Koltra pretty sink whatever argument you have to make about her trying to save her people.

Good and Evil are inherently subjective.

The Aztec practiced human sacrifice, but to them and much of the ancient world that was not evil.

Sylvanas isn't really killing any of these people, since Killing implies the definitive end of material existence, since they are being raised as undead, with complete free will they are not really killed, so much as transformed.

Also, not sure why you bring up Extortion or Ethnic cleansing. Sylvanas isn't doing what she does because of the genetic existence of her enemies, but because they are working against her just purpose, reclaiming Lordaeron for the "people" of Lordaeron.

[Phenomina]

I figured it was only a matter of time before the Forsaken drew the attention of the Argents.Just a matter of time before she is held accountable for her crimes.

[mistuhbull]

You probably meant the Lich King, not the Burning Legion. I know Ner'zhul is supposed to be the Burning Legion's (specifically Kil'jaeden's) pawn but Ner'zhul practically deceived the deceiver. Sylvanas is no more under the Burning Legion's control than she is under the Lich King's.

My own take on all this is that Sylvanas is like a Garrosh on crack. She gets shit done. And she doesn't give a shit about honor. Now that's what I call a man.

The Legion was also trying to control her through the dreadlords

[DrakeWurrum]

You cannot "twist" murder, extortion, ethnic cleansing and kidnapping to make them any more evil than they actually are to BEGIN WITH.

Those acts are EVIL - PERIOD.

If you don't like being called a fanboi, then stop trying to claim those acts aren't evil, and that "Sylvanas is doing it for the betterment of her society."

She admits flat out she's doing it for her own gain. Her torture and kidnapping and torture of Koltra pretty sink whatever argument you have to make about her trying to save her people.

Uh, yeah, you can... because she's not doing those things. You think she is, because you're blind to the truth, and are obviously some kind of religious nut.

I'm not some "fanboi" I'm actually reading the lore from an unbiased perspective, and am perfectly aware of the perspective the Forsaken take on this and the rest of the world.

For you to just come out here and claim that theses widely-accepted *facts* presented by the people who MAKE the lore are, in fact, not fact, and not happening, than that makes you a fanboi of anti-Forsaken, whatever that means, let alone just plain ignorant. You sound like some kind of 9/11 conspiracy theorist, saying that everything we're being told is a lie.

You should really read what mistuhbull said. Just so you know.

[Thage]

I figured it was only a matter of time before the Forsaken drew the attention of the Argents.Just a matter of time before she is held accountable for her crimes.

So when is Varian going to be held accountable for his terrible mismanagement of the situation in Westfall while constantly kicking more poor and homeless out of Elwynn and into the world's biggest ghetto, hm?

[Deleted]

Yes it was. It was back in Arathi. Thrall said it was in books out of WoW, and during the whole battle for the undercity, Sylvanas admits it was against the rules and lets you kill putress.

Now you're even LYING about the lore to defend her.

So uhmm the OP said something a while back and id like everyone to follow what he said... you i realy wana know what you think will happen to her?
At this point there is no point in carrying on as you have no intention to back down or respect others beliefs/ideas/facts...

[Anoregon]

All I hear is a bunch of insults, no actual defense. This is usually what happens when someone knows they can't argue their position.

Thanks for proving me right.

Your delicious hypocrisy is giving me a raging boner.

[Pyrowraith]

Well, I could point out the Forsaken Paladin who works with the Argent Crusade, and how he has said her acts are intolerable. I could point out the apothecary who abandoned Sylvanas and said it was for the same reasons. I could point out her assault on the Greymane wall using her super plague. I could point out the hillsbrad detention cent-- oh wait I already did. But, I think the most damning evidence is her conversation with Garrosh, where she admits she's murdering people simply to swell her ranks and to retain her power. She says this outright. This is also why the "recent forsaken" she MURDERED refuse to follow her will. I'd also like to point out Thassarian and Koltra's comments about Sylvanas. IF you don't know what they are go and complete the full Andorhal questline on both alliance and horde.

Your argument was self defeating. You can either choose to be a fanboi or grow up and admit you're wrong.

As for the talk with Garrosh, you didn't pay attention. She clearly states that the reason for her resurrections is because her people can't procreate. When her people are killed by alliance, they have no way of making up for those numbers. So, even if it is morally wrong, she is doing it for the sake of her people. If she didn't attack back at the Alliance, Lordaeron would be overrun. It also clearly states when you start an undead character, that they have the choice to not be resurrected.

As for your view that "murdering is wrong" you keep ignoring when people point out to you that Varian does the same exact thing towards orcs. The orcs left the Eastern continent to find a new home and under Thrall, attempted to live in peace. However, Varian kept attacking. Humans also captured orcs and placed them in slavery. IE Thrall's life.

If you're going to try and use "facts" to back yourself up, at least consider facts others post as well. You just keep ignoring all points of everyone else because it conflicts with what you refuse to admit may be wrong.

[luccadeo]

Even leveling my Foresaken rogue I had issues with most of their quests. They are horrible.

[Flaks]

The Legion was also trying to control her through the dreadlords

Damn, I totally forgot about Varimathras. My bad.

[mistuhbull]

So when is Varian going to be held accountable for his terrible mismanagement of the situation in Westfall while constantly kicking more poor and homeless out of Elwynn and into the world's biggest ghetto, hm?

That's ok because they are his own people.

It's why we hate Hitler more than Stalin. Hitler killed others, Stalin killed his own.

[DrakeWurrum]

holy shit! can people stop this hostile philosophy discussion that stinks religion (from one poster) before this gets locked??? atleast use some good arguments and stop the taunting. all i wanted to know was how u imagine it to end (dies) or continue (lives) with some good background if u cba. and yes, Sylvanas can be the last interesting anti-hero left in blizzard's overall game industry

Well where I *think* it will go is the direction Blizzard always (stupidly, imo) takes their plot.

"Oh god, this person is doing morally reprehensible things, time to kill them off heroes!"

Where I *hope* it will go is that Blizzard will finally realize what a wonderfully deep plot they have going on here, and find a way to keep it going strong, otherwise WoW will become just... so very bland. It keeps things from being cut and dry. I'm hoping that there's some major lore event that causes Sylvanus to look at herself in the figurative mirror, and see that she might be going too far with this whole... war on the Worgen thing.

She has to find a way for the Forsaken to live out their (un)lives in this world, and actually have a place, just as other races do.