"Fat Tax", Are You For or Against?

[belfpala]

This law is not protecting anybodies rights, so it is therefore infringing on our rights. Our rights should not be infringed upon, even if the government believes there is 1 'correct' way to live.

Again, I would appreciate if a mod would edit the OP to emphasis that 1) this is in Denmark, and 2) this is a tax on certain FOODS, not on certain people.

That said, do you pay health insurance? Pretty expensive, isn't it... Other people's choices affect MY healthcare premiums, even though I'm very health conscious and work out 3-6 times per week. Smoking, drinking, obviously. Diet as well.

[Berri]

I think the idea has merit. Living unhealthily means you cost more money in terms of health care and such; I think that it's fair that if you choose to live like that, you should pay a little more because you also cost a little more. Not to mention that something like this will promote a healthier lifestyle.

Offcourse, there has to be serious regulations on how to make sure something like this is 'fairly' applied.

[Providence]

certainly not only eating raw fruits and veggies.. although fruits are full of sugar. but really not many people eat only raw food do they? unless you start controlling exactly how people prepare their meals too. veggies & fruits are the ingredients of all manner of unhealthy dishes.

well obviously frying a banana in lard and slathering up some butter will probably yield you some ineffective results, except at that point you're not exactly eating healthy.

eating healthy is pretty much raw fruits, raw veggies, some starch and the occasional poultry or fish. if you don't like that then thats fine, you can prep your food how you want, but that still doesn't change the fact that eating healthy, and I mean actually healthy will in no way make you fat by any proportion to what some people are achieving. It's just not possible and I doubt they'd be able to physically eat that much food in a day unless they had a massive tape worm in their intestines

the real point to drive at is that being 'skinny' is not complex and the only hard part is using will power.

an hour of hardcore exercise will burn some 500 calories and speed the hell out of your metabolism. if you can't pull out 1 hour in a day (i understand most people cant and don't have the energy) then the next best thing is a healthy diet. this takes no effort and just takes a life change and a food change which only requires the will to not eat the same garbage you've eaten your entire life.

if you can't manage to do one OR the other, and UNLESS you are suffering from some thyroid problem or you are taking meds that makes you retain water weight like the guy from way earlier in the thread, you really don't have anything or anyone to blame for being fat or obese but your self. it doesn't make you a bad person but lets not pawn it off like fat people were dealt a bad hand and now have to live with some genetic burden placed on them.

[starlord]

well obviously frying a banana in lard and slathering up some butter will probably yield you some ineffective results, except at that point you're not exactly eating healthy.

eating healthy is pretty much raw fruits, raw veggies, some starch and the occasional poultry or fish. if you don't like that then thats fine, you can prep your food how you want, but that still doesn't change the fact that eating healthy, and I mean actually healthy will in no way make you fat by any proportion to what some people are achieving. It's just not possible and I doubt they'd be able to physically eat that much food in a day unless they had a massive tape worm in their intestines

the real point to drive at is that being 'skinny' is not complex and the only hard part is using will power.

an hour of hardcore exercise will burn some 500 calories and speed the hell out of your metabolism. if you can't pull out 1 hour in a day (i understand most people cant and don't have the energy) then the next best thing is a healthy diet. this takes no effort and just takes a life change and a food change which only requires the will to not eat the same garbage you've eaten your entire life.

if you can't manage to do one OR the other, and UNLESS you are suffering from some thyroid problem or you are taking meds that makes you retain water weight like the guy from way earlier in the thread, you really don't have anything or anyone to blame for being fat or obese. it doesn't make you a bad person but lets not pawn it off like fat people were dealt a bad hand and now have to live with some burden placed on them.

well thats neither here nor there, the point is people will NOT change their eating habits through force of tax. tax their mcdonalds fries, they can easily buy some potatoes & oil and make em at home. or grill their own burgers etc. they will still eat far too much. and they will still be fat and everyone will be poorer, except the government.

[Providence]

well thats neither here nor there, the point is people will NOT change their eating habits through force of tax. tax their mcdonalds fries, they can easily buy some potatoes & oil and make em at home. or grill their own burgers etc. they will still eat far too much. and they will still be fat and everyone will be poorer, except the government.

well thats why i'd personally be in favor for this tax if the money went either into the healthcare system seeing as how most of our expenses are fat related, or if it went into paying for food to go to starving people in other countries. Either of those options really work for me.

[belfpala]

well thats neither here nor there, the point is people will NOT change their eating habits through force of tax. tax their mcdonalds fries, they can easily buy some potatoes & oil and make em at home. or grill their own burgers etc. they will still eat far too much. and they will still be fat and everyone will be poorer, except the government.

You can easily make a better burger at home.

I absolutely dare you to try make better fries at home, though. It took me like 2 years of tinkering to get it right.

The real point is that all that matters is what the tax pays for. Nobody cares if anybody changes their eating habits if the money goes to the proper things. My local tobacco tax goes to the health system. The gas tax goes to public roads. If it just goes to general coffers and pays for... idk... a new football stadium? No, bad.

[starlord]

well thats why i'd personally be in favor for this tax if the money went either into the healthcare system seeing as how most of our expenses are fat related, or if it went into paying for food to go to starving people in other countries. Either of those options really work for me.

but you cant single out fat, fat alone isnt all that bad for you. many healthy foods contain more fat than unhealthy ones. it seems kind of ridiculous to raise food prices for our own people in order to send money to others.. abd in denmark at least they already pay a flat tax for healthcare. that could simply be raised if they were strapped for cash. that clearly isnt the case... this "deterrant" tax is simply a moneygrab.

[Providence]

but you cant single out fat, fat alone isnt all that bad for you. many healthy foods contain more fat than unhealthy ones. it seems kind of ridiculous to raise food prices for our own people in order to send money to others.. abd in denmark at least they already pay a flat tax for healthcare. that could simply be raised if they were strapped for cash. that clearly isnt the case... this "deterrant" tax is simply a moneygrab.

well i have a bit of a conscience and when i see shit like


ALONG with


then i'm personally more than willing to pay an extra dollar for my fatty fat burger so that little M'Tubu can actually eat for once.

[starlord]

thats well & good, but it should be your decision (or the companies') to make. no one besides little m'tubu's government or parents owes him anything.

[Dupree]

well i have a bit of a conscience and when i see shit like
snip

Or, you know. you could donate to charity.

[Providence]

thats well & good, but it should be your decision (or the companies') to make. no one besides little m'tubu's government or parents owes him anything.

well i wont dabble in the philosophical aspect of the matter so i'll just jump to the paying for healthcare.

we're going to look at the 'fatty' foods. they mostly carry tons of sodium which results in elevated blood pressure, tons of cholesterol which also elevates blood pressure and affects the heart, many calories, as well as containing very little roughage or nutrients in them.

This means that you have increased risk of
heart attack
heart disease
stroke
respiratory failure
colon cancer
intestinal failure
many cancers
many diseases

many of which are pretty prevalent in our society, and in fact heart problems are the number one killer in america if i'm not mistaken. our medical costs are pretty high and we have a number of people who have no health insurance who are eating 'fatty' foods. why not tax the foods and use said tax dollars to put into the medicare especially when the thing you are taxing is the main cause of the issues that the tax dollars are going to address.

it'd be like the cigarette tax dollars doing into medicare because of the lung cancer issues.

[starlord]

well i wont dabble in the philosophical aspect of the matter so i'll just jump to the paying for healthcare.

we're going to look at the 'fatty' foods. they mostly carry tons of sodium which results in elevated blood pressure, tons of cholesterol which also elevates blood pressure and affects the heart, many calories, as well as containing very little roughage or nutrients in them.

This means that you have increased risk of
heart attack
heart disease
stroke
respiratory failure
colon cancer
intestinal failure
many cancers
many diseases

many of which are pretty prevalent in our society, and in fact heart problems are the number one killer in america if i'm not mistaken. our medical costs are pretty high and we have a number of people who have no health insurance who are eating 'fatty' foods. why not tax the foods and use said tax dollars to put into the medicare especially when the thing you are taxing is the main cause of the issues that the tax dollars are going to address.

it'd be like the cigarette tax dollars doing into medicare because of the lung cancer issues.

theres a few problems i have with that...
1) all of those foods are perfectly safe if eaten in moderation.. unlike cigarettes
2) many of the high sodium foods such as canned food are a staple of those already struggling financially. it would be irresponsible to make things worse for them
3) these people are also the ones without healthcare, without much education or doctors advice, and not likely to live long enough to use medicare much in any case.

if it went towards subsidizing healthier food, then sure. iirc there are even areas so poor that grocery stores cannot survive..

[Arakkar]

I don't see this any differently from a tobacco tax, and as a smoker I support them both.

[starlord]

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Food_desert

[nyc81991]

I don't care about fat so much, But I do care about the chemicals they put in our food that causes cancer. They should spend their time on that.

[belfpala]

2) many of the high sodium foods such as canned food are a staple of those already struggling financially. it would be irresponsible to make things worse for them

I've priced it out. It's cheaper to make your own chicken soup, for example, than to buy it in a can (per serving). You buy 1 whole chicken, butcher it. Now you have 2 breasts, 2 thighs, 2 legs, and 2 wings. Not counting the trip to the store, this takes me about 1 minute.

Now, chop 1 onion, 1 stick of celery, and 1 carrot. Again, maybe a minute for me. Then, saute them briefly in a large pot. Add 1 quart of water, add the chicken carcass, a bay leaf, a couple pinches of salt and pepper. Bring to a boil, cover, reduce heat to low. Simmer for an hour or two. Strain into a large bowl.

When it cools, skim the fat off the top, then freeze in 1 cup (or so) portions. There, simple chicken stock, cheaper than you can buy in a store, ready to go whenever you need it. Plus 8 pieces of chicken. Freeze those too.

You now have 6-8 meals from one silly chicken, an onion, one stick of celery, one carrot, and some tap water. Total cost, less than $1.50 per serving. And your stock has only as much salt as you put in, and basically zero fat (if you cooled and skimmed).

The problem is that people 1) don't know that they can, 2) don't know about making things in bulk and saving it, and 3) don't think they have the time to do it.

[starlord]

I've priced it out. It's cheaper to make your own chicken soup, for example, than to buy it in a can (per serving). You buy 1 whole chicken, butcher it. Now you have 2 breasts, 2 thighs, 2 legs, and 2 wings. Not counting the trip to the store, this takes me about 1 minute.

Now, chop 1 onion, 1 stick of celery, and 1 carrot. Again, maybe a minute for me. Then, saute them briefly in a large pot. Add 1 quart of water, add the chicken carcass, a bay leaf, a couple pinches of salt and pepper. Bring to a boil, cover, reduce heat to low. Simmer for an hour or two. Strain into a large bowl.

When it cools, skim the fat off the top, then freeze in 1 cup (or so) portions. There, simple chicken stock, cheaper than you can buy in a store, ready to go whenever you need it. Plus 8 pieces of chicken. Freeze those too.

You now have 6-8 meals from one silly chicken, an onion, one stick of celery, one carrot, and some tap water. Total cost, about $1.50 per serving. And your stock has only as much salt as you put in, and basically zero fat (if you cooled and skimmed).

The problem is that people 1) don't know that they can, 2) don't know about making things in bulk and saving it, and 3) don't think they have the time to do it.

well it really depends on your area. for your average suburbanite , this may be true. for the extemely poor though its different.

Studies show that cost is the most significant predictor of dietary choices, so healthy eating is especially difficult for the poor, for whom healthier foods are generally unaffordable.[4] Meanwhile, supermarkets generally provide food at cheaper prices than the bodegas and pharmacies that service inner-city areas. A study that compared supermarkets, neighborhood groceries, convenience stores, and health food stores in San Diego, CA, found that supermarkets had twice the average number of 'heart-healthy' foods compared to neighborhood grocery stores and four times the average number of such foods compared to convenience stores.[5] In many American cities, an urban grocery gap has caused a lack of access to healthy foods, high prices for the healthy foods that are available, and the health problems that result from an unhealthy diet.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supermarket_shortage

[belfpala]

well it really depends on your area. for your average suburbanite , this may be true. for the extemely poor though its different.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supermarket_shortage

I read your link. I still say lack of education is huge. I know suburbanites with easy access to great supermarkets who couldn't cook their way out of a paper bag (hint: it's flammable).

Which is why I'm saying education is important (I don't think I'm disagreeing with you at all, actually). If, as I posted above, I can take 1 chicken and get 6+ meals out of it... well, go price out whole chickens at your local store. They're pretty damn cheap.

Caveat: I cook food for a living.

So... I have friends over for a party/whatever. People like to say things like, "Can I help do anything?" as I'm finishing off the appetizers or whatever. Ok, sure, I have a pot of boiling water on already, just blanch those green beans. "Do what?". Umm... julienne that zucchini? "Who?" Yeah, nevermind, pour yourself a drink and I'll be out with the food in a couple minutes.

People don't know they can cook for themselves, affordably, even if they have limited time. It's a shame, really. Wouldn't mind seeing the tax on fat (and lets add a tax on processed sugars) go to education.

[Karrmer]

Taxes are almost as ridiculous as the belief that "fat" is bad for you. Sugars and most carbohydrates definitely are, but fat is not. I'd keep all the fat in that chicken stock that I could, and eat it with some asparagus.

People have the right to eat whatever they wish - the issue is that, yes, they then become a financial drain as they tend to be poor and receive free healthcare whenever they have health issues, which is ridiculous. If you make the choice to A: not get a job, B: eat horrible food, C: be extremely unhealthy, you do not deserve healthcare. No one is entitled to healthcare - the doctor's went to school to learn a trade just like a mechanic, you don't get your car fixed for free just because you "need" it. You pay for services. If a doctor wants to make you into a charity case and spend his hours treating people who are generally worthless, that's his own prerogative.

I also don't believe education is as big of a deal as people pretend it is - I'd like you to find and interview some people eating at McDonald's and ask them if their Big Mac and Fries is healthy. They know it isn't, they just think it is delicious. People aren't stupid enough to believe fast food is healthy for them. How many enormously fat people do you see crying because they can't stop themselves from eating, even though they know it is making them unhealthy and makes them hate themselves? There is a lot more going on with the food and the way it interacts with a persons hormones and can make it extremely hard to change their behavior. It is a legitimate addiction and isn't as simple as "don't be lazy and just go to the gym." Exercise is VERY irrelevant when it comes to weight gain or loss - the food intake is 95% of the equation. People need to COMPLETELY rid themselves of sugar and refined carbohydrates, and do so in the same way that an alcoholic quits alcohol - you quit, you don't go have another drink on the weekend. Any alcoholic knows they'll just relapse, and people addicted to food need to stop pretending they can just have "one cheat day" on the weekend. It doesn't work. They need to spend many months, possibly years, completely fixing their hormonal issues and getting their body healthy before they can even think of attempting to re-integrate worthless food.

Eat healthy. If you need medical care, pay for it. If you can't pay for it, get a job. If you're too stupid to get a job AND you treat your body like shit, don't cry when you're sick and expecting me to pay for you with my tax money.

Also, get rid of welfare.

[Stir]

eating healthy is pretty much raw fruits, raw veggies, some starch and the occasional poultry or fish.

I would definitely disagree with this.
The average human being needs a minimum of 200 grams of meat each day (which can be replaced by less nutritious means, of course) and poultry really isn't all that good for you. Starches... Don't need them. So I'd suggest mainly raw fruits, raw red meat (hoofed herbivore)/seafood and cooked (but not overcooked) vegetables. Maybe the occasional starch.

Eat healthy. If you need medical care, pay for it. If you can't pay for it, get a job. If you're too stupid to get a job AND you treat your body like shit, don't cry when you're sick and expecting me to pay for you with my tax money.

This is both enormously selfish and absolutely ridiculous.
If someone needs medical care, then there's a really good chance they can't get a job because they have a severe condition. As such, they won't be able to afford healthcare, in your perfect world, so they should just die? Remember that a statement such as this doesn't cover only those that do it to themselves. It also covers chronic illnesses.

People need to COMPLETELY rid themselves of sugar and refined carbohydrates, and do so in the same way that an alcoholic quits alcohol

*nods* This, then, I completely agree with. We don't need to eat these. Protein is actually the only source of energy we actually need.