Worth Every Rogue's Vote

[Koji2k11]

I guess that would be because most people here absolutely have no mentionworthy PvP experience at all :/

and you have yes? you play on 1,4k rating on 2v2 and have just a bit over 50k HK how could anyone take your serious ?

[Coldkil]

I guess that would be because most people here absolutely have no mentionworthy PvP experience at all :/

and you have yes? you play on 1,4k rating on 2v2 and have just a bit over 50k HK how could anyone take your serious ?

Stop the fight before it starts.

Anyway, it's not the fact we are ignored, it's the fact that actually Blizz developers are right on some points. Rogues could use a lot of rework, but for what?

Remeber, a lot of effore is considered valuable if a lot of the community can experience it. Rogues are not a huge part of the community, and if a dedicated legendary hasn't brought us back up, well, there's not much more to do apart to redo the class.

And since the rogue design is surely old but working, it's a very remote option.

[Deleted]

Stop the fight before it starts.

Anyway, it's not the fact we are ignored, it's the fact that actually Blizz developers hold the truth. Rogues could use a lot of rework, but for what?

Remeber, a lot of effore is considered valuable if a lot of the community can experience it. Rogues are not a huge part of the community, and if a dedicated legendary hasn't brought us back up, well, there's not much more to do apart to redo the class.

And since the rogue design is surely old but working, it's a very remote option.

What annoys me is the bolded part. Least played class at 90 (monks are a bit special now), least represented in arenas right now (monks again) and mid-pack in PVE (many melee unfriendly fights, can't forget that) and the answers are "We read what you say, but we disagree. The class design is perfect, not many changes are needed".

If a class has sank to this point, I believe it's fair to assume that the class is not perfect. How to make it more fun? That I don't know. One should try to see why classes like warrior or paladin are so much popular.

---------- Post added 2012-10-30 at 01:08 PM ----------

The thing is, we don't have any special abilities. They are all on-use with long cooldowns (AR, SB for example). Except for that its just SS spam with eviscerate. SnD, RvS and ToT are very boring mechanics and don't require any thought of the player. It just needs to active 'at all times'. Where's the fun in that? And since threat is now easier to be gained by the tank, what's the use of the ToT glyph (still wondering why I'm actually using it)?

TotT is pretty much a PVP-only ability now.

[Baharroth]

You can also ask yourself, what do Rogues have that other classes do not have (and that are actually useful. distract lol)

Most classes got like-wise abilities of us, the only difference is that those are actually BETTER than our version.

[Coldkil]

What annoys me is the bolded part.

Lol i edited my post a lot of times and that part has been left screwing the entire thing :P

Edited and fixed.

EDIT: never said that the rogue class is good designed. My numbers in raid are perfectly fine and even if i'm not topping meters, i'm also not in a bad shape.

The problem is always HOW we get that numbers.

[Mafic]

Pallies, DK's, Warriors, etc tend to be popular because they tend to have the big yellow numbers players crave. Also, they tend to have better heals and survival mechanisms which makes them better for leveling and end game activities (questing, raiding, arena, etc).

1. Leveling - Rogue leveling is probably the most hardest of all the classes easily once more. There are cases where stealth and sap are really advantageous in completing quest rewards, but overall that is outweighed by the possibility of facing more than one mob to complete a quest at the same time. Only on spec can handle such situations leveling up (Combat). Furthermore, two of the three DPS specs don't pick up their main DPS cool down very, very late in the leveling process (level 80 ouch). In other words, till then there is no much pinache for a player to stay interested and stick with a Rogue.

The reason Recuperate was introduced was to help with Rogue leveling, but also reduce the need for cool down usage. Now, that it is a shell of its former self, you have to use cool downs aggressively or face dying if you underestimate the NPC's attacking you (This is compounded by the fact that Vanish/CloS are now longer cool downs for all Rogues now). Also stun locking was integral part of the leveling process in the past for Rogues, but DR really negates this to an extent now. Still, I found the best way to level was to stun lock mobs and stagger Evasion/Combat Readiness inbetween. For most players used to other classes, having to stun lock for leveling purposes is counter intuitive to what they are accustomed to. For example, a Warrior could do that, but why bother if they can just smash the NPC in with just pure, raw yellow damage? Rets just blow up NPCs as they level.

2. Stealth is no longer the forte of Rogues - Vanish can be powerful still at times, but it seems that it can't compete with the new "vanishes" other classes have received on significantly shorter cool downs. Also a single glyph that hunters can obtain can really negate Rogues' stealth edge. Throw in that you can be seen at greater distances and even pulled out from 40 yards out now, and it is frustrating. I know why Shadow Walk is even introduced if the skill will be so bare bones.

3. Spec identity - The specs don't stand out all that much. A swashbuckler, like Combat, has low dodge, low parry, and is pretty much a generic rogue spec now. Sub doesn't have the slippery trickster feel without prep and shadow step. Assassination is the closest to having a spec identity, but it still needs more if that is to be the poison spec imo.

Overall, there are many issues as those threads bring up, but these three main issues really do not sway new players to come pick up the class to play. I know plenty of people that play plate DPS and as soon as they try to level a Rogue they quit in frustration. I know one of my friends who finally reached 80 and changed his mind (received Killing Spree) or else he would have quit leveling his Rogue.

[Boricha]

I assume Blizzard just thought our burst capabilities were too high in cata. The thing is though, everyone tries to find ways to burst you down, it's become really common. I'm not sure a healing class is killable if all you have is sustained damage but no burst. Now rogues have good sustained damage which is great for PvE but their burst damage is so low they don't really serve a purpose in PvP outside of smoke bomb. But why even bother when you could just get a bm hunter or a frost mage who can time frost bomb correctly. Shadow dance/blades does provide effective burst when used at the same time but it is 12 seconds every 3 minutes. It also provides no cc immunity so you can be easily locked down, unless you blow evasion and/or CloS too. If they live through that though you are done for. I feel like if puncturing wounds was brought back as a passive for subtlety it would solve many problems. Some other things would be no energy cost on finishers, SV with Hemo, energy regen from recup OR SnD (not stacking).

[Deleted]

Lol i edited my post a lot of times and that part has been left screwing the entire thing :P

Edited and fixed.

EDIT: never said that the rogue class is good designed. My numbers in raid are perfectly fine and even if i'm not topping meters, i'm also not in a bad shape.

The problem is always HOW we get that numbers.

I took it as you were saying how Blizzard said that the rogue class was perfect and all that.

[Coldkil]

Shorter CDs or reduced costs won't fix the problems, will only make us stronger for now and OP when gear scaling starts to kick ass in the next patches.

Things that need to be fixed:
- a lot of damage being "passive" is actually tied to SnD and it's mandatory 100% uptime. The ability needs to be removed and damage balanced around this.
- base energy regen is clearly useless, and every spec has a different "fancy" way to regen more energy. Base energy should be higher and additional means should be removed.
- Rupture is still used because of other reasons; while it's good to have cool buffs tied to it, it's a bad design to make it mandatory through passive abilities.
- combat will forever and ever be a must have raiding spec because of Blade Flurry; while i think it's good to have a niche for a spec, it's not good to have 1 of two spec slots always taken by a single rogue ability; every spec should have its peculiar way to cleave by spreading poisons/bleeds/direct attacks (CWHUTIDIDHERE)
- some pints to work on: Envenom is a great ability; it has a great spec identity, an interesting way to keep up dps and aim to corretc usage (energy pool, high uptime) and it replaces another ability. More spells can be done in this way, like Rupture can have other 2 spells that are spec exclusive; SnD can make a return as combat-only, but it needs a lot of rework (idea: buff that lasts 1.5 seconds every CP and make your special attacks to trigger a double hit).


While there's a lot of feedback and good ideas, most of them are trashed because it would be a lto of effort for a small ain (in their eyes).

[Evolixe]

and you have yes? you play on 1,4k rating on 2v2 and have just a bit over 50k HK how could anyone take your serious ?

You're so funny lmfao, because that is a totally serious team, right.

Anyone judging another from HK's should also shoot himself. Fyi, Arena kills are not HK's.

Right okay, now we got that out of the window;

I don't see any problem with PvE Rogue at all. You still have to work for your damage and even if most sources are "passive" they mostly come from active subsources.

[Baharroth]

I don't see any problem with PvE Rogue at all. You still have to work for your damage and even if most sources are "passive" they mostly come from active subsources.

What do you mean ''work for your damage''. It's all about watching your SnD and RvS. After that it's just SS / Evis and pop some AR, SB and KS every minute or 2. Oh so much work... I think my finger muscles are so strong now cuz of spamming Sinister Strike for so many years

[Evolixe]

Isn't that pretty much the same with any class? I mean lets get real. How hard is it really to do damage with a hunter, a warrior, a mage or a priest..

It's really not that difficult or complicated at all. Never has been and never will be.

[Baharroth]

Isn't that pretty much the same with any class? I mean lets get real. How hard is it really to do damage with a hunter, a warrior, a mage or a priest..

It's really not that difficult or complicated at all. Never has been and never will be.

Easy is boring, I think we can agree with that at least?

[Coldkil]

For sure our damage depends on active buff/debuff management, but still it's not entertaining to look at Recount and see over 70% of our damage being autoattacks and poisons.

Both in PvP and PvE rogues are for sure viable if not good classes to play with. Burst in 4.3 was OP as hell and many were used to that gear and fast playstyle. This doesn't change the fact that most of our work is to look at the SnD timer.

EDIT: better wording, most of the classes of not all are about timers and buffs managements. The fact is that doing this as a rogue feels not rewarding.

[Evolixe]

I'm not expecting that to change to be honest. I like the class as it is and i wouldn't want to see it all changed to something i don't like just for the sake of how it looks on a damage meter.. which you should understand.. doesn't interest me at all :/

[Koji2k11]

You're so funny lmfao, because that is a totally serious team, right.

Anyone judging another from HK's should also shoot himself. Fyi, Arena kills are not HK's.

Right okay, now we got that out of the window;

I don't see any problem with PvE Rogue at all. You still have to work for your damage and even if most sources are "passive" they mostly come from active subsources.

i just can't take you serious laughing so hard at you right now btw don't bother reposting i ignored you

[Coldkil]

Tbh, i don't know what the majority wants because as always the ones that aren't agreeing with Blizz design are the ones talking while the ones that don't care or are fine usually don't say anything (which is fine). it can realistically be that the ones wanting changes are only a few.

The game is good when the people find it fun.

The thing that makes me think is "i like rogues, but they could be a little better this way". Then i go around forums and basically everyone (not every rogue playing, but writing) is agreeing on some basic points and issues about the class. Since it's happening on internet forums where everyone and their mother say things for the sake of venting out, i find at least strange that Blizzard is just saying "rogues are fine" and not "well, we'll think about that".

Even if you like the class Holo, i'm sure there are some things that could be tweaked to make the class more appealing. They don't need to have an impact on gameplay - also i think that if you had SV triggering on Hemo you would be happier.

[Deleted]

Rogues are fine guise, the fact we barely have more players than Monks, a class that has been around since the game's inception vs. a class that has been available for 2 months, that means nothing, Rogues are fine it's an l2play issue.

[Koji2k11]

Rogues are fine guise, the fact we barely have more players than Monks, a class that has been around since the game's inception vs. a class that has been available for 2 months, that means nothing, Rogues are fine it's an l2play issue.

yep has to be a l2p issue

[Evolixe]

I said pve was fine. Naturally in pvp there are some this' and that's.

Nothing big though, just a few cooldown adjustments.