How to reward 25 man raids for "logistical effort"

[Marooned]

To hell with 25m and for that matter to hell with 10m, blizz needs to get smart and make both sides compromise by removing both formats so that a new single 15m or even 20m format can form from the ashes.

Removing 10 and 25 and having 15 man instead is like killing whatever good things 10 and 25 man have and bringing something which is not as fun as 25 man and not easy to manage as 10 man.

[Tonkaden]

Having read a bit more of this thread, I'm really shocked that anyone would argue that 10s are in any meaningful way harder than 25s to organize.

For one person sure. People are arguing for "logistical" loot when they do fuck all of nothing but show up to the raid like they would in any raid size, be it 5, 10, 20, 25, or 40. These players do nothing different period. So people are arguging for free loot or free acknowledgement for nothing in return.

Like I said earlier. Give the guild / raid leader the loot and only that person and Id be for it. No one else does anything that would warrant it.


In the end , I really feel like blizzard is going to get rid of 25 mans anyways. This silly little e-peen debate would fall by the wayside. Its that or you would have the nostalgia crew that would probably rival the "my game was good for 2 weeks" SWG "vets".

[Deleted]

Make 25 man HEROIC bosses drop pre-upgraded gear, 1/2 (4 ilvls). 25 man raiders will spend 750 less valor to upgrade each BiS item.

Why not normal 25 man?

1- The gear you really want to maximize (spend your Valor) is your BiS gear. In general, BiS gear drop from heroics.
2- If you are in 25 man guild that don´t wanna progress through heroic, you shouldn´t have any advantage over 10 man.
3- On the first heroic bosses, 25 man will not have any advantage over 10 man, and will have a slightly advantage over time, but 4 ilvl in some pieces will not kill the bossses for them, but when farming heroic, they will maximize their gear much faster then 10 man, thats the incentive.

I don't think there is any real need to reward heroic anything, raidwise. HC raiders are fairly rare and not really all that relevent to raiding in general - which is mostly done by casual guilds, just getting by. HC raiders are also concerned largely with prestige, which means they re already being rewarded in exactly the way they want.

Incentivising HC modes further will just encourage people who don't belong there to try them, which is the road to nerfing and removal.

[Madruga]

More loot.
Customizable loot as in 5 items out of 6 are still random but that 6th item you choose directly from the loot table.

Because let's be honest, anything not related to loot would just not work anyway.

I agree. Only loot can incentive people to do 25's.

And that is exactly why this is so tricky.

If they overdo that, just a TINY bit, they effectivelly kill 10 mans. If they put 25s one ilvl over 10 mans, just ONE ilvl, they kill 10 mans. If they give too much more drops in 25, they kill 10 mans.

Honestly, I think the real solution would be stick to one raid format. Let it be 15, so that both formats have to go out of their safe zone, but neither has to suffer too much.

[iggyMG]

why not vanity items that are otherwise difficult to acquire?

[Deleted]

Gold charms for clearing a raid in 25 man?

[Morsker]

Loot is already so much worse on 10 man than 25 man that if it isn't enough of an advantage yet for 25s, it's never going to be. On tier token dropping bosses, you get one token, and one piece of loot. In 7 months of farming H-DS in an hour every week, I never once got the mail agi boots off H-Hagara, and I was in for every kill against her.

I agree; Blizzard has already gone as far as they can to make 25-man easier, by giving more loot. I think that's the whole problem. They're at the limit already. Any more loot or better loot in 25-man would destroy the parity between the difficulty settings by just making 25-man ridiculously easier.

[Raelbo]

In the end , I really feel like blizzard is going to get rid of 25 mans anyways.

I doubt it. At least not anytime soon. 25 man raiding is the jewel in their crown. Having it there gives WoW bragging right and makes the game look better, even if at the end of the day most people actually prefer 10 man raiding.

[Verain]

Dude, some 10-man raiders will say fucking ANYTHING to pretend that they're actually doing the hardest content available. They're not. Everyone knows it. It's not just logistics, it's actual execution which is, in turn, an actual increase in difficulty.

They so desperately want their way of playing to be "equal." But remember T-11 when 10-mans were actually challenging and they just cried all the time? Yeah...

T-11 is when we began the transition over to 10s- even though some of the fights were harder, we could push much further in 10s than 25s- because of the logistics. T11 had three instances, so we were able to keep a 25 roster, but pick 1-2 of the instances to be 10 in a given week (and we would split for those).
In firelands our transition was complete, as the 10s were both easier and put into one dumb instance.

But yea, I would agree with your assessment- there's a lot of people who really want to believe that 10s is harder to organize (I view the difficulty difference on execution as being a separate thing- we've seen fights be easier in 10s and 25s, though on average I believe they are easier in 10s, and it's certainly easier to stack a raid in 10s).

[Dvaldin]

Going by the answer that 25's are splintering into 2 10-man group, maybe just scale the number down from 25 to 20 and keeping the +drop rate. I know a lot of guilds that run 2 10-man groups.

Or guarantee that everyone in the raid gets a drop from the boss if you're in 25-player mode.

[oppie]

How about stuff like:
- Less run time from death to boss in 25
- Easier repair options in 25
- Summons/teleports to 25 raids (i dunno how this would work)
- easy reforging access or reagents in 25

Ie. easier logistics related to 25 to make up for the logistics needed to get 25 ppl together.

As far as the summons/teleports, they could input an orb inside the raid that only appears in 25m mode that summons the group to the instance

[Uniqed]

Going by the answer that 25's are splintering into 2 10-man group, maybe just scale the number down from 25 to 20 and keeping the +drop rate. I know a lot of guilds that run 2 10-man groups.

Or guarantee that everyone in the raid gets a drop from the boss if you're in 25-player mode.

So you want every 25-man boss to drop 25 items?

[Verain]

I'll also point out that transitioning back to the old model will prove HIGHLY disruptive to most guilds, almost all, so I guess some of the people are really arguing for that. A lot of players have burned bridges and whatnot anyway, and a lot of servers have shrunk.

[Fenixdown]

Offering a reward kinda seems like saying "There are two raid formats, we consider one superior and bribe you to do it".

I don't understand why people keep insisting that 25 man raiding must be "saved". We are talking about a game, a hobby, a nice way to pass the time. Play it as you like it. Apparently of the world best 20 guilds, the majority thinks 25 man work better. Beyond that, more and more favor 10 mans.

I think this is the first time I've seen you say something det that I'll have to disagree with you on, and here's the reason why.

Everyone and their grandmother seems to put the age-old adage of 'the top X guilds do Y so Z is okay/not okay" on the front of any raiding debates, from class usage to group constructions and so on. Look at the body of work as a whole for raiding right now. Barely over 2,000 guilds, or about 50,500 players, raid in a 25-man format right now. over 27,000 guilds, or approximately 271,110 players, raid 10-man. That is over a 5-1 ratio. That is completely absurd.

The reason top guilds can stay 25-man is because they are top guilds. Recruitment for top guilds is about as easy as your local high school girl next door sweetheart getting a date on Saturday night. All they have to do is point at someone and say "You're gonna raid with us". Well, beyond top guilds, guilds don't work that way. For the average guild, on the average server, the talent to maintain a 25-man roster is spread incredibly thin into about 8-10 10-man guild because raiding 10-man is, yes, easier. Not easier in terms of mechanics or execution, no. The mechanics and execution is much tighter and much more demanding in 10-mans. However, the ability to organize and maintain is vastly easier, and provided the talent is of equal caliber, that in a way also makes 10-mans easier because it's easier to guarantee that there will not be a "power gap", so to speak, in your overall raid members and their ability to perform both in terms of throughput and in terms of mechanical execution.

I am in a guild that is suffering mightily to stay 25-man. We have a very solid group of about 20-23 raiders. The 4-5 "bad seeds" that hold us back on fights like Elegon, added to attendance issues, added to other various factors...are making 25-mans a seriously lost cause. If there was incentives to get, say, a decent 10-man guild to merge with us to do 25's, we'd be peachy keen. But what incentives are there to do so?

I understand that people think there shouldn't be a difference between the two, but at the same time people need to understand that there does actually need to be one to keep the format viable beyond the top guilds in the world. Because beyond those top guilds, 25-man guilds may as well be extinct. They're certainly on the verge of it right now, and it's really saddening to see it end up this way. I raid for social experience and fun. The less people around me, the less fun I'm generally having. For people in 25-man raiding guilds to actually enjoy themselves, there sadly need to be an incentive for people in 10-man guilds to do 25-mans.

[scadouche]

Going by the answer that 25's are splintering into 2 10-man group, maybe just scale the number down from 25 to 20 and keeping the +drop rate. I know a lot of guilds that run 2 10-man groups.

Or guarantee that everyone in the raid gets a drop from the boss if you're in 25-player mode.

Changing raid size mid-expansion with little notice would do more harm to guilds than good. If they were to announce a raid size change it would have to be the next expansion.

[Verain]

- Less run time from death to boss in 25
- Easier repair options in 25
- Summons/teleports to 25 raids (i dunno how this would work)
- easy reforging access or reagents in 25

None of these would work. These aren't "logistical" difficulties. These are just numbers, with the exception of the teleport- which is oddly already the only thing easier in a 25 man.

You either offer us higher loot or you go home, it's really that simple. From your suggestion, I'm betting you run 10s, and are heavily invested in that. That's fine, I am too, but there's no damned reason to make stuff up. None of this would motivate you to run 25s, or merge guilds. The current situation has encouraged (to the point of I would say coercion) guild splits and 10 man rosters. None of your suggestions would put you back in a 25 guild. YOU. Higher loot would (or make you quit).

So Blizzard has painted themselves into a corner. We can all have a "told you so" party, I guess :/

[scadouche]

I think this is the first time I've seen you say something det that I'll have to disagree with you on, and here's the reason why.

Everyone and their grandmother seems to put the age-old adage of 'the top X guilds do Y so Z is okay/not okay" on the front of any raiding debates, from class usage to group constructions and so on. Look at the body of work as a whole for raiding right now. Barely over 2,000 guilds, or about 50,500 players, raid in a 25-man format right now. over 27,000 guilds, or approximately 271,110 players, raid 10-man. That is over a 5-1 ratio. That is completely absurd.

The reason top guilds can stay 25-man is because they are top guilds. Recruitment for top guilds is about as easy as your local high school girl next door sweetheart getting a date on Saturday night. All they have to do is point at someone and say "You're gonna raid with us". Well, beyond top guilds, guilds don't work that way. For the average guild, on the average server, the talent to maintain a 25-man roster is spread incredibly thin into about 8-10 10-man guild because raiding 10-man is, yes, easier. Not easier in terms of mechanics or execution, no. The mechanics and execution is much tighter and much more demanding in 10-mans. However, the ability to organize and maintain is vastly easier, and provided the talent is of equal caliber, that in a way also makes 10-mans easier because it's easier to guarantee that there will not be a "power gap", so to speak, in your overall raid members and their ability to perform both in terms of throughput and in terms of mechanical execution.

I am in a guild that is suffering mightily to stay 25-man. We have a very solid group of about 20-23 raiders. The 4-5 "bad seeds" that hold us back on fights like Elegon, added to attendance issues, added to other various factors...are making 25-mans a seriously lost cause. If there was incentives to get, say, a decent 10-man guild to merge with us to do 25's, we'd be peachy keen. But what incentives are there to do so?

I understand that people think there shouldn't be a difference between the two, but at the same time people need to understand that there does actually need to be one to keep the format viable beyond the top guilds in the world. Because beyond those top guilds, 25-man guilds may as well be extinct. They're certainly on the verge of it right now, and it's really saddening to see it end up this way. I raid for social experience and fun. The less people around me, the less fun I'm generally having. For people in 25-man raiding guilds to actually enjoy themselves, there sadly need to be an incentive for people in 10-man guilds to do 25-mans.

This post sums up my thoughts.

[Deleted]

For all I care people that raid 25 can have an NPC at the entrance that gives them free repairs, flasks, food, extra valor, extra gear, extra gold and a buff that glows pink with the number 25 being shot up from their eyes like fireworks so everyone can know they're so pro, even though the only one(s) that has any extra work is the raid leader(s), but everyone wants free candy and it's alright.
Just don't mess with 10s and leave the lockout and loot being the same as 25s. I've raided 40s in vanilla, 25s till Cata and 10s ever since, and I so never want to go back, dear lord the amount of mouth breathers that most 25s have to carry just to make up their numbers is terrifying, and I never want to deal with that again, 10s are just so cozy, 12-14 good friends that have been playing together since vanilla, 2-3 of those being reserves that just join when we're farming content so they get gear and remain happy, and substitute people when they don't show up in an odd night, seriously, I have no clue why would people choose to do 25s, but it's all good, to each it's own.
Just leave 10s like they are, thanks.

PS: They should add different FoS for server first, 10 and 25.

[oppie]

Say you just do it blindly, you have 4 groups of 3 people and 2 groups of 4 people. Group 1 consists of the 3 lowest dps and a tank, group 2 consists of the 4-6 lowest dps and a tank, group 3 consists of the 7-9 lowest dps. The last 3 groups doesnt matter because group 3 will now wipe you on every single try because their average dps is too low to take down the 4th, 5th and 6th spark without MAJOR cooldowns (such as heroism).

This is why you cant just asign it blindly, you need to pair up the highest dps with the lowest dps etc, this is something that a 25 man guild can spend hours on trying to perfect while in 10 man the tanks help out the two lowest dps and the ranged help out on anything that is still alive once their spark is dead.

In addition to that the sparks in 25 man have 3 times as much hp. In theory thats fine and all because you will be using 3 times as many dps (6 to 18) but oh wait what about the tanks? do you also use 6 tanks in 25 man? No you dont and that means you have to make up for the dps of an extra 4 tanks in some magical way.

But this all points to LOGISTICS and not actual difficulty of the encounter, and further more, you make up for the additional hp on sparks the same way they do in 10m, if 10m can only help out the two lowest group so can 25, and if the dps is not there then it has nothing to do with DIFFICULTY only the players. Stop trying to turn LOGISTICS into a boss mechanic.

[Zstr]

wrath system should be back, like it in korea(I'm fucking jealous of them)
25 man is RAIDING
10 is dungeon running

and would be nice if they bring back 40-man thats where the epicness!