Harder Content = Better?

[Firebert]

Then if you WANT to see the CONTENT why does LFR drop gear? You want to see the content so badly that gear wouldn't be a deciding factor, would it?

Everyone should be allowed to progress their character, and loot dropping in LFR allows that. No loot in LFR means it only gives 90/45VP per completion and ends up being a Valor grind alone, which in turn is useless because all the Valor gear is locked behind two reputation grinds. Also, no loot in LFR means a lot less people run it (because at least some were running it just for loot), meaning that raids again get less exposure and are cost-inefficient to make, which is why LFR was implemented in the first place. This in turn makes LFR a failure, and raiding as a whole gets scrapped as it's not worth spending money on a tiny percentage of players.

Would you want that?

---------- Post added 2013-02-28 at 10:15 PM ----------

But it was never easy for a brand new player to get into raiding, nor should it be. Effort has to be made, you can't just expect guilds to happily pick up new players and boost them to gear and achievements.

Was easy in WotLK, all I had to do was farm up 5-man Heroic epics via LFD to boost my Gearscore and fake my achievement via Underachiever and I could get into a PuG to clear 10-man Normal modes (because guilded players saved themselves for 25-man raiding), which gave me the achievement to get into the most casual raiding guild on my server that allowed me to raid without voice chat and clear most of 25-man Ulduar and Trial of the Champions before ICC came out.

Now I can't farm epics because it's behind weeks of rep grind, my item level means nothing because I don't have the achievement, I can't get into a PuG for current content because cross-realm raiding of Normal of the current tier's disabled and everyone's saving their lockout for their guild, and when I do apply to a guild with whatever I have I'm turned down because of time restraints, one incorrect reforge, cheap enchants or not having max cooking and alchemy.

It was very easy for a new player to raid. Now it is not.

[Osmeric]

Why do you think that will increase the time required for running T15 LFR?

If the typical group requires several wipes per boss to get through, how could it not greatly lengthen LFR times?

Remember, they are using this mechanism as an excuse to increase the difficulty of the LFR encounters. It's that combination that's imbecilic.

[Firebert]

Out-of-the-box Cata heroics were probably the only time recently that there was a true introduction to normal raiding, and the community promptly rejected them, due to some inbred idea that 5 mans should be easy because.. well...

...5-man Heroics were meant for quick and easy gear farming, not to teach people how to raid. They stopped being quick and players felt they had no time to run them, and quit instead of spending up to 14h a week getting their valor cap, They stopped being easy and players felt they had no time to boost the weaker geared players, and quit instead of spending even more time trying to get their valor cap.

Normal mode raids should be the true introduction to raiding, as it's actually raiding.

---------- Post added 2013-02-28 at 10:21 PM ----------

I would like to hear the real reason straight from their mouths (or keyboards) as to why people run LFR.

To keep raiding afloat as end-game content.

[HardCoder]

If the typical group requires several wipes per boss to get through, how could it not greatly lengthen LFR times?

Remember, they are using this mechanism as an excuse to increase the difficulty of the LFR encounters. It's that combination that's imbecilic.

I haven't interpreted it that way. What they would like is for people to stop dropping group after a wipe, which makes LFR work less smoothly. I haven't interpreted this new mechanism as a green light for them to make encounters harder. People shouldn't be wiping twice on any LFR encounter other than the end boss. There's no benefit to anyone in making encounters in LFR "challenging."

We could all go back to the days of Jin'do the Pug-Breaker but I don't think that's going to happen.

[Osmeric]

I would like to hear the real reason straight from their mouths (or keyboards) as to why people run LFR. I know the real reason and anything other than free gear is usually denial.

As of right now, I'm running LFRs mostly to farm VP. That's gear in a sense, I suppose.

The main reason I enjoy LFRs, though, is that their success drives a certain class of players crazy. This pleases me immensely.

[HardCoder]

...5-man Heroics were meant for quick and easy gear farming, not to teach people how to raid. They stopped being quick and players felt they had no time to run them, and quit instead of spending up to 14h a week getting their valor cap, They stopped being easy and players felt they had no time to boost the weaker geared players, and quit instead of spending even more time trying to get their valor cap.

4.0.3 heroics were a genuinely terrifying experience for casual players, and if they got any feedback at all while there, it was "go away scrub."

It's interesting that some people thought they were great, but clearly those people are blind to the health of the game and the community. If 80% of your community isn't completing 5-mans because of a mixture of difficulty and abuse from other players, that a big damn problem.

[Osmeric]

I haven't interpreted it that way. What they would like is for people to stop dropping group after a wipe, which makes LFR work less smoothly.

But I don't think it's going to help with that. If wipes are common, times will stretch out and LFR will be ruined. If wipes are uncommon, the mechanism won't keep people from abandoning a group that wipes (especially when the wipe is on the first boss, or even worse on trash.)

[HardCoder]

As of right now, I'm running LFRs mostly to farm VP. That's gear in a sense, I suppose.

The main reason I enjoy LFRs, though, is that their success drives a certain class of players crazy. This pleases me immensely.

We are aligned in our thinking.

[Deleted]

The learning curve from Wotlk to Cata was just retarded. They should have upped the difficulty by small percentage every patch, not big changes in just one patch. I still cannot understand how they didnt think of this before releasing Cata.

[HardCoder]

But I don't think it's going to help with that. If wipes are common, times will stretch out and LFR will be ruined. If wipes are uncommon, the mechanism won't keep people from abandoning a group that wipes (especially when the wipe is on the first boss, or even worse on trash.)

Well, 5% isn't enough of a buff. It should be a 10-15% buff that only stacks once.

---------- Post added 2013-02-28 at 02:36 PM ----------

The learning curve from Wotlk to Cata was just retarded. They should have upped the difficulty by small percentage every patch, not big changes in just one patch. I still cannot understand how they didnt think of this before releasing Cata.

We had however many 5-mans in Wrath where you NEVER had to interrupt a cast, like, ever, and then suddenly every 5-man has a boss and/or trash that HAS to be interrupted multiple times or else wipe and "wtf interrupt it u noob."

[ShimmerSwirl]

25 man: unique raid not accessible through LFR

10 man: unique raid only accessible through LFR

Unique meaning that 10 man is a completely different raid than 25 man.

---------- Post added 2013-02-28 at 05:45 PM ----------

The learning curve from Wotlk to Cata was just retarded. They should have upped the difficulty by small percentage every patch, not big changes in just one patch. I still cannot understand how they didnt think of this before releasing Cata.

I don't doubt that to be true, it still just shocks me that so many players considered Cata dungeons to be hard. They were a piece of cake compared to BC ones.

[Moistmuffins]

25 man: unique raid not accessible through LFR

10 man: unique raid only accessible through LFR

Unique meaning that 10 man is a completely different raid than 25 man.

Um... making normal raids even less accessible to people? Not everyone wants to do 25 mans, why do people not understand this?

[Marooned]

I don't doubt that to be true, it still just shocks me that so many players considered Cata dungeons to be hard. They were a piece of cake compared to BC ones.

LFD man, in random groups learning means nothing, on each run you will end up with some new players. LFD heroics cannot be harder than what they are.

However I never forget the night we started a MgT heroic run with 4 of my friends and took us 6 hours to finish it lol, we finished it at 4am, one of our funniest memories.

[Otimus]

Exactly. What I am referring to is that the MAJORITY (and I mean VAST majority) of players who run in LFR use the excuse that they want to see content. However, the real reason is to basically get free gear that is purple. I would like to hear the real reason straight from their mouths (or keyboards) as to why people run LFR. I know the real reason and anything other than free gear is usually denial.

I run LFR because that's my only end game, and the only way available to me, besides random BGs, to progress my character.

[judgementofantonidas]

I run LFR because that's my only end game, and the only way available to me, besides random BGs, to progress my character.

LFR is not endgame. it is begining game.

[HardCoder]

LFD man, in random groups learning means nothing, on each run you will end up with some new players. LFD heroics cannot be harder than what they are.

However I never forget the night we started a MgT heroic run with 4 of my friends and took us 6 hours to finish it lol, we finished it at 4am, one of our funniest memories.

Even after a billion nerfs, it's still a little scary to tank some of the BC heroics in random groups at level 70. The huge rooms full of trash in Shadow Lab are still there although Murmur is now a wet noodle.

[Otimus]

25 man: unique raid not accessible through LFR

10 man: unique raid only accessible through LFR

Unique meaning that 10 man is a completely different raid than 25 man.

---------- Post added 2013-02-28 at 05:45 PM ----------



I don't doubt that to be true, it still just shocks me that so many players considered Cata dungeons to be hard. They were a piece of cake compared to BC ones.

Most people didn't do dungeons until the LFD tool was implemented, because it generally required manually organizing a group of strangers, or being in a guild that does that stuff, which comprises a minority of what the players do.

i.e. most people just leveled, and never reached the end of it.

[Firebert]

LFR is not endgame. it is begining game.

In that case, the gap between "begining game" and "mid-game" is too large, or "mid-game" is too inaccessible to those playing the "begining game".

[Otimus]

LFR is not endgame. it is begining game.

It's MY endgame. It's all I can do.

[HardCoder]

In that case, the gap between "begining game" and "mid-game" is too large, or "mid-game" is too inaccessible to those playing the "begining game".

To someone who has one toon at level 90, and is unable to raid for whatever reason, the "endgame" choices are dailies-for-useless-valor/pointless-5-mans/pet battles/camp-the-AH/whatever, or LFR, or "start a new toon."

Or "quit the game."

So to me it seems that LFR is a valid "endgame."